Coaching Through iPEC’s COR.E Dynamics: Confidence

This episode includes our interpretations of copyrighted works done by the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching or iPEC. 

Alex Cullimore: Fearlessness is about not operating even with fear, with a total understanding that there will be – you can ride with whatever is going to happen not feeling the drag that fear can create and not having to dig into courage to move, but just to feel fearless.

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. We are just Cristina and I. Thanks. It's just the two of us continuing our series on diving into some of iPEC's COR.E Dynamics Series and our interpretation and understanding of it. This one, we are on to our next discipline, which is confidence. How confident are you feeling, Cristina? 

Cristina Amigoni: Confident that some words will come out of my mouth. Some may make sense.

Alex Cullimore: Already succeeding.

Cristina Amigoni: I know. The measures of success are low.

Alex Cullimore: We're back to our usual Friday recordings. This should be a good one.

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely. There'll be words. There'll be noise. They may make sense. They may not. Trust the process.

Alex Cullimore: And we're going to trust the process. We're going to chip in and we're going to have a mastery mindset on this one.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: All things that have come out in our previous recordings on the disciplines that we've been talking about in case you're lost at this point and happen to jump in right at confidence. Up to this point, what have we gone through? We've gone through, I see, awareness, acceptance, conscious choice, trusting the process and then – 

Cristina Amigoni: Authenticity.

Alex Cullimore: Authenticity. Yes. Authenticity, which is – 

Cristina Amigoni: Fearlessness. And now confidence. 

Alex Cullimore: Let's talk a little bit about the difference between fearlessness and confidence there because that's an interesting direction to take. Fearlessness is about not operating even with fear. With total understanding that you can ride with whatever is going to happen not feeling the drag that fear can create. And not having to dig into courage to move but just to feel fearless. 

And confidence is about really the third part of the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition, which is about a feeling or consciousness that one has power and can rely on one's circumstances. We feel like we are able to face what's kind of coming down the road. And this is kind of an important distinction because it's not the way that we sometimes think about confidence where it's an if-then. If I do this well, then I'll be confident. And it's not that you can't build confidence that way. But when we're considering confidence in this sense, it's more about how can we be confident in everyday situations whether we've faced it or not? And what can we rely on so that we can feel we're like in that space of energetic power rather than feeling like maybe we're dragged down or have some doubts or worries? How can we step beyond that? 

Cristina Amigoni: It's definitely more of a because I have confidence, I can trust that I can face the situation and figure out what needs to be done.

Alex Cullimore: And as one might imagine, this has to come with a fairly genuine belief in that. It's not just I'm pretty confident that if I started today, I will join and win the presidential race. That would probably be a little large, a little bit outside of what might be realistic. Confidence comes from both that understanding as well as stepping into that power if I can take on something that is unknown. And it's not just unrealistic or just random confidence. It is understanding real, true confidence in ourselves and what we can try.

And again, to Cristina's point, it's not about like building this by doing things. It's more about how do I just live with confidence? How do I move with confidence? How do I approach things with that confidence? Not wait until I've done it to feel confident. This is a good cart before the horse that's very easy to get caught up in and feel like we have to do something before we can feel confident in it. And we may feel confident over time. But showing up confidently allows us to perform better from the get-go. And this is, again, confidence not just total blind belief but understanding that you truly can feel confident in yourself.

Cristina Amigoni: And the interesting part of the approach to figuring out where you can dig deeper and find that confidence when you're feeling like you may be missing is to go back and think of past situations where you were confident. There is almost this continuous cycle of, "Well, the past informs how you can feel today about your confidence. But then it's the confidence that then allows you to move forward and do what you need to do. And know that you can approach whatever comes to you." There's some information piece and there's also some just believing that you have it in you even though you may be facing something that you've never done before.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. You may feel like you don't have that proof yet. That's actually one thing I found out in the experiential way when I was doing standup. Obviously, fairly nervous jumping into it. And it's hard to stand up and try and figure out what's going to make people laugh. And so, I kept waiting to feel like when people start responding to my jokes, I'll feel more confident about this. 

But when you're on stage, people are reacting to whether you're confident or not already. If you come across as nervous, they're going to be nervous for you. It will make the entire performance harder both for you to get through and for them to not be distracted by the idea that you might be nervous. And so, once I started to step into more of a, "Okay. Well, I have enough confidence in this joke to try it." And it's not about whether it lands. I can't control the outcome of this. I can just keep learning from it. And when I started to do that and it started to, A, become a lot more fun. And I got a lot better. That was probably the first and most direct time where I felt that difference where I hadn't done it well all the time yet without just a few lucky portions here and there. But until I really stepped into feeling like I'm just going to confidently try this even though the outcome will be unknown that I finally found some traction. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great example. And I can think of coaching, learning to coach was a big one for me. do I have the confidence that I know how to coach? Well, I have the confidence that I know how to ask questions and create space in some situations. And I have the confidence that I have figured out how to do new things in the past. And so, there's a good chance that I can probably figure out how to do this and not get paralyzed. 

The confidence may not be the direct experience yet because you don't have the data, but you can definitely rely on a larger point, a larger picture. And I know even in almost any engagement at this point, the confidence is not from knowing that this is going to go well. Well, I don't know that. What I know is what I bring to the room. I know that I have confidence to read the room. To meet people where they are. To ask the questions. To pick up if something is off. To pivot. To change. I have the confidence in that. What's going to happen in the room after that? We'll figure it out after two hours.

Alex Cullimore: And it's not under our control if we tried to pull that under our control. We're setting up for false expectations that are going to become frustrating and take away energy in a way that we couldn't have controlled anyway. 

One thing we hear a lot is people saying – and this is entirely an understandable feeling that people get to this. But people will say, "I just don't see the steps between here and there. So, that makes me nervous. I don't know what to do next. I'm not sure what the path looks like." Which is totally fair. You don't know the path. 

Some of that confidence that that's how I'm kind of relating to what you're saying, Cristina, is that knowing that, "No. I don't know the path." I know the goal. I know the idea that we're moving towards. And I know that this is the next step. And I can kind of plot that there will maybe be some pitfalls here that we can think about and just being confident that it's okay that we don't know all the steps. We don't necessarily know the timeline. And being able to step into that, which falls kind of into some that trusting the process as well.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Indeed. And sometimes even just having the confidence that I may not understand the goal at this point. And it's okay. Because if I just take the next step and I think if I rely on the confidence to listen, to understand, to have the curiosity to leave the judgment behind, to be able to move with the flow, then the goal that I have in mind now, I'll figure it out how detailed that is or how correct or incorrect it is. 

And most times, and especially it's interesting as well, because most times both in coaching, and in change management and in consulting projects, the goal that is stated is usually actually not the goal of a project. Not just for us as we come in and support. But even for the people establishing while they're doing something. 

As they go through the journey, they realize like, "Oh, no. That actually isn't the ultimate goal. This is." But having that confidence to be able to recognize that and change the course to get to where you actually want to go is what can get you there.

Alex Cullimore: That's a huge one. I think that's another thing that helped kind of develop some of that confidence is realizing that, every time I would step into a coaching session, the goal I would state was not the issues. That's not the thing we're actually working on. Anand then seeing that when you are the coach and seeing so many times where people have a stated goal. And then finding out all the things that are actually in the way of that and what the real goal is. It's a fun exploration. But it really gets you trained to stay in that curiosity zone because you're going to find the real core goal. And that's where you find real progress, which is really fun too. Because that's our stated goal every time we walk in. We have to figure out what actually needs to change. What is the real basis for what you want to do and what stands in the way of getting there? 

And so, if you can continue to stay curious rather than just assuming whatever the top-level one-liner that somebody will throw out at the beginning of a project is it, then you can actually find some of that nuance. Find what is really important and move towards what is the real change that's necessary. 

Cristina Amigoni: I think one more piece of confidence before we go into coaching is how confidence, and stress and tensions are inversely related. Stress is caused by worrying about an experience. Having doubts. Having those fears over well you and take over and be in the driver's seat. And so, those emotions which are lower level of energy, catabolic energy and confidence is a much higher level of energy, that's when we look at it. When we are in those states, it's hard to have that confidence. 

And then depending on where on that scale of energy we are, whether it's level one and we're closed into our cave or a little bit higher, we need different kinds of support to then find our deep core confidence to move out of that.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. For instance, in like a level one, when you're shut in that cave, it might be about getting somebody else to help you. Just reaching out for help so that you have that support and you're reaching a little bit more out of that cave. And that level two, you might be feeling bad about something. And maybe it's just about kind of going through that grieving process. Feeling some of that anger you might have for either yourself or the situation and letting that become motivating and starting to move up that chain. You can get into some more of that rationalizing. Finding opportunities. Figuring out ways you're helping other people and then connecting to other people. And finally, just being able to choose how you would like to inject confidence into the situation if you're all the way up to a level seven. 

Those are – it's something that you can still play with. Confidence can exist in any of these realms. And it's worth investigating how you're going to get back to some of that confidence so that you can operate from just a space of power rather than a space of effort.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Indeed. 

Alex Cullimore: Let's jump into coaching. 

Cristina Amigoni: Let's do it.

Alex Cullimore: I'm gonna throw the question to you this time. Coach? Coaching?

Cristina Amigoni: I am going to coach. 

Alex Cullimore: All right.

Cristina Amigoni: Didn't I coach the last time? Who knows? I don't remember.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. It's not going to matter.

Cristina Amigoni: The level of confidence about being a coach or a coachee is about the same. It's 50-50.

Alex Cullimore: Well, that's my first question. 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. I need to pick a question now. I'll just go with an easy one. How would I say that? 

Alex Cullimore: Oh, boy. 

Cristina Amigoni: There's no easy question in coaching. In which situations are you most confident and which ones are you least confident? 

Alex Cullimore: That's interesting one. Most confident. It's easiest to be confident I think when there's feeling of experience already kind of under your belt. That's where I easily kind of step into that and I'm like, "Okay, I've done this kind of thing before. And I know the big pattern that it might take." 

It's helped a lot to get – you were talking about the coaching training. It really helps build that into some other situations where I can be more confident just feeling like I'll figure it out. 

Cristina Amigoni: That sounded really confident.

Alex Cullimore: I do mean it in a confident way. Well, I'll figure it out. We'll get through it. I think It's actually an interesting dichotomy that's coming up to me as I'm walking through this meandering answer is I feel confident when I can do things either on my own and when it's just me that I have to rely on depending on this outcome or whatever. Something I'm working on just for me versus when it's with other people. 

And there's a gray area in that. It's not just with other people. When I get to work, we work on things together. We have a good working relationship. It's easy to do that in collaboration. It's when there's either other social relationships at stake or if there's the feeling of trying to make decisions for other people or plan something that will impact other people and trying to figure out what the right/best thing is for them tends to come up a lot and that tends to drain some confidence. If it is something that I feel like there's going to be impact on other people that I haven't or can't quite mitigate or account for, that can be a little bit less confident. That's the most media dichotomy that comes up to me.

Cristina Amigoni: That makes perfect sense. Especially when there's the other component. The other component is what we can't control. And so, not being able to control what's the impact. How will people take it? How will people show up? Then we can only focus on ourselves when it's yourself. Then, well, whether the confidence is there or not, it's really completely up to you.

Alex Cullimore: And I feel fairly comfortable that if something's going to come along and it's something that I wanted and it ends up being a disappointing outcome, then I'll have to manage through that and deal with it. And I'll reach out to support as necessary. And that'll be fine. I can deal with that. It's when I feel like I end up trapping myself into the idea that I'm like owning other people's reaction that the confidence drains. And then now I'm really focused on trying to make sure that people are going to have a good experience or it's going to be as good as it can. And if it's something that's painful, then that's where the confidence will absolutely just leech right out of the situation.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And totally understandable. How true is it that you own other people's reactions? 

Alex Cullimore: Oh, it's 100% not true. And every time I finally remind myself of that, I find great relief in that. But there's such a default habit that it creeps up on me a lot like weeds in a garden. It'll just kind of come back. I'll turn around, like, "Oh, damn. That's there again." I'm back to feeling like I own people's reactions to this.

And when I step into that – and I'm getting a lot better at that actually in the recent months especially. Getting better about dissociating myself from others' reactions. And dissociating is a strong word. That makes it sound like I'm like detached from reality. It's more detaching from the other people's reactions. 

You can still plan and try and help people approach something in the best way possible. But not owning that is very liberating. And I know that it's not true that I own that. And it still creeps up on me sometimes subconsciously.

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely understandable. When it does creep up on you, where do you feel it in your body? 

Alex Cullimore: That's a good question. I've never thought about that. I think there's two ways that kind of come up as I'm thinking about it. First of all, it can be just general stress. It can be the stress of like – which I tend to carry like as tightness in my upper back and shoulders. I'll notice that I'm waking up with neck aches. I'm stiff. I can feel just the either literal knots or soon-to-be knots in my shoulders at that point. That's a very commonplace I tend to carry stress. 

Mentally, it shows up a lot both physically and mentally in the feeling of either brain fog or avoidance of trying to manage something that at the end I know like if I really face it, I know that I can't control the outcome on it. So, I can let go of that. But what I'm not facing it, it'll just be kind of mental fog and blur and it'll feel that kind of heaviness or distraction, which like I feel a little bit in my head as a fuzziness.

Cristina Amigoni: Interesting. Now that you have recognized the tightness in your neck and upper back, shoulders, and also the brain fog, the fuzziness, the avoidance, how can you utilize those tools to recognize when the weeds are taking over before they completely overrun the beautiful garden?

Alex Cullimore: Something I need to do is keep track of – and I say need to do in a positive way. Not like I need to do this. 

Cristina Amigoni: Not I have to. Should do? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Not I have to. But something that I actually would want to do is tracking some of that tension that I'm feeling in my shoulders. It's been a ruckus month of lots of things going on in my life for the last month and a half. And so, I have felt more of that occasionally. Waking up like, "Oh, man. I'm not as loose as I would be." And part of that is also because there's been so much going on. I haven't been able to work out or actually use a lot of my body the way I usually use it. It's all getting stiff. That doesn't help. 

But if I'm tracking that feeling, and maybe it's about like adding that to morning journal or something, to kind of track, "Hey, just a quick check-in. How tight does everything feel? Is it just regular morning tightness that hasn't been stretched out yet? Is it something that has been built over a couple of days?" And then tracking that and realizing like, "Hey, I've felt this for a couple of days. There's probably something I need to turn to your face." 

Cristina Amigoni: Journaling is a big tool that you use. So, that makes sense. Once you track it and you realize like this is a little more than just morning wake-up from not moving for eight hours, what's the next step? 

Alex Cullimore: The question then becomes what am I avoiding? If it's an ongoing thing, there's something I'm not addressing or I'm not able to get to the bottom of. And so, that question is probably the next step is what am I avoiding? And then depending on what the answer to that is, is it something that I need to move past? Have I been avoiding writing and marketing description? Sure, I've done that before. 

That might be something where it's just like, "Okay. Let's get through that. And let's just clear out some space and make this the hour that I'm going to focus on." If it's something that is like trying to manage somebody else's reaction to something or some internal thing, then it's maybe a chance to be like, "Okay. A reminder of, "Hey, you've learned this lesson before. You don't actually own other people's reactions." And what would it mean to let go of that in this instance? And failing all of that, it's reaching out for support.

Cristina Amigoni: Sounds like a good plan. You've mentioned that the owning people's reaction is the cause of the tension, the cause of the avoidance and the lower confidence. What are your expectations of people's reactions? 

Alex Cullimore: In general, or just as – 

Cristina Amigoni: Why do they worry you? What's the cause of the worry about people's reaction? 

Alex Cullimore: The cause of the worry is the security in relationships. I think that having grown up with a fairly significant people-pleasing demeanor, there's always kind of a fear that like somebody's strong enough reaction means the whole relation. And the way I sometimes think about it is like you build up relationship credit over time. You have like earned some trust. You trust other people more. That develops slowly over time. 

And having had enough experiences of that feeling like it just suddenly wipes to zero based on somebody else's reaction, there's a lot of trepidation that given the wrong set of circumstances or putting the wrong thing out there will wipe out the entirety of a relationship credit. 

And so, that it becomes a very precarious game to step into wondering if whatever you're doing here is going to detonate the relationship for either all time or for a temporary amount of time. And so, that creates a lot of hesitation.

Cristina Amigoni: That's understandable. When in your past has that happened? 

Alex Cullimore: Often. 

Cristina Amigoni: There's assumptions of – there's data. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: A lot of data. Yes.

Alex Cullimore: There's a lot of data that has built. A lot of assumptions.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. How true is it that it was your action that caused the relationship to detonate? 

Alex Cullimore: Not particularly often. I think a lot of it has come back to – it's so easy to tell the story that whatever is happening is because of you or something that you've done. We've had times where somebody will suddenly seem a little weird in a relationship even like at work and we'd be like, "Hey is it – what did we do? What's said about this?" And you go into all this second-guessing. And oftentimes, it's not anything to do with you. And the few times it is, it's usually like a conversation away from helping resolve that. 

In reality, no. It's not necessarily been particularly true that I've caused these or at least that reaction has been – if it's something that I did, the reaction is not often exactly because of that. It's because some other trigger that I happen to step on accidentally or something. Or just the way you word something might confuse somebody. Might trigger something for them that they had felt, which you can't be aware of ahead of time. You don't know everybody's buttons.

Cristina Amigoni: Very true. You talked about avoidance. How true that that's your typical way to respond to a potential feeling of detonating the relationship?

Alex Cullimore: For a long time, that would have been nearly 100% of the time. Over the last couple of years, I think particularly that's moved a lot. And at this point it's down to probably about 30 to 40% of the time when it feels like something that's large enough. I've gained a decent amount of perspective I think on ones that feel like they're especially triggering or might be triggering. 

And so, that's reduced that all by itself. And then, also, knowing – getting a little bit more confident and practice at addressing those things more than avoiding them has reduced that from that 100% down to probably like 30% to 40%, which is only particularly large events that bring that up.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and you mentioned that gaining that confidence. How can you tap into that the next time feel the avoidance? Or the reaction is not what you expect.

Alex Cullimore: The most powerful thing is remembering that I don't own anybody's reactions. If that's that, that's that. And then if it's still something that feels stressful, it's about kind of unpacking what's causing that stress. 

I think that if I can let go of like the idea of I own other people's reactions, then there's still stress. Then that stress is surrounding some other piece of it. There's something else I'm nervous about or I haven't resolved. At which point, that goes back to kind of the same options. Journal it out. Figure out what that is. Reach out. Find a coach. Dig down to what piece that is. 

It's addressing that, if it does feel like that, that external piece is letting go of like I can't have anybody's reaction. And so, maybe coming up with a plan of like how would I like to approach it? If it feels like it has a bad reaction, what will that mean? And maybe doing some of that kind of worst-case scenario planning as well as thinking about what's actually likely here? And over and over again, reminding what is actually my responsibility here? It's all about how I'm going to show up to this is the only thing I could take responsibility for.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. The worst-case scenario plan is definitely a good approach. What could possibly happen? And, well, how do I feel if that worst-case scenario actually comes true? 

You've talked about a big part of understanding your own reaction. Letting go of owning other people's reactions. What else could you do if there's still weirdness? 

Alex Cullimore: I mean, honestly, I'd like to just take a page from your book and just reach out and address it directly. Ask the person, "Hey, what's this?" If there already has been a reaction. I guess if not, then it's just about staying on top of it. Stepping into a conversation. Yeah, honestly, that would be – because building that muscle I think would pay dividends in the short and long-term.

Cristina Amigoni: What's stopping you from doing that? 

Alex Cullimore: Nothing. It's been something I've been making some progress on more or less. And it's just something that there's pretty strong default reactions that pop up pretty quickly. And so, it's about just staying on top of that awareness to slowly deprogram that and trusting the process that it will get more comfortable over time. And I think that's a huge reminder that I think I have to probably bring back to. Knowing that it's like any change journey. It's going to have ups and downs. There'll be times where it feels like it goes well. There'll be times where it feels it doesn't. There'll be times where you feel like you're slipping in defaults and didn't realize it. 

Holding some more space for that as well as trying to keep up awareness that there isn't a lot of that falling back for defaults or doing the leaning in and facing it. If it doesn't go well, "Okay, what do I take from this? What do I want to do differently?"

Cristina Amigoni: Good path forward. When you think about the two possibilities. The weeds are showing up. The shoulders are hurting. The fog is thickening in the head. First approach is figuring out what's causing this, you mentioned. And journaling. Is there a pattern? Is there something that's sticking around? Or is it going away by itself? 

And so, what you described as the two paths is like one is the worry of a reaction that hasn't happened, which is more about letting go of owning the reaction because it hasn't happened yet. That's more of the internal work. And then the other path is like the reaction has happened and it was not was expected or it was not – well, you used the word positive. It was not constructive. Let's use the word constructive. It was not an anabolic reaction. It was a catabolic reaction. 

And so, part of that path is still understanding doing the inner work and then perhaps starting to use the muscle of reaching out and realizing that you can only go so far. You can get to your 50% of your awareness. But you can't actually know what's happening on the other side.

Alex Cullimore: The other thing that occurs me in that, that's a good summation of all the pieces that occurs to me, is I need to have space for and remind myself that other people just relate differently. Occasionally, I'll hear people talking about like an interaction they had with somebody else and I'll feel almost that like stress of either empathizing with that or feeling like there has to be some kind of resolution in that. Or feeling like, "Man, if I was saying what these people are saying, I would have to be really stressed out." I assume they're really stressed out. And not putting my own kind of projected experience into that would reduce a lot of stress too, which is some form of owning that reaction that isn't mine. It's not. It's not mine and it's not how – whether they would react that way or whether they feel it the same way, I have not. Most of the time that that thought process is coming up, I have not done the actual curious questioning to figure out if that's the same as my initial thought of how that would be. That's a good reminder too. 

Maybe it's a lot about being some of that presence. I guess you also mentioned a good sentence in there about worrying about a reaction that hasn't happened yet. There's a lot of like getting back into the present of like what is actually a concern now? And what does that actually mean for what I would choose now regardless of the anxiety of future unknown? 

Cristina Amigoni: A very good point is like the focusing on the now, which is where goes back to fearlessness. We fear is not about the future. It's actually – well, fear is worry about the future. In the moment, we don't have fear because we're doing it. What else could you tap into? 

Alex Cullimore: The other thing that comes up is tapping into our experiences almost. At work alone are a huge portion of this. Understanding managing, building and continually creating relationships. I feel fairly comfortable in continuing and building a lot of those relationships especially in the workplace because it feels easy enough to face. 

And knowing that that's just kind of how we default into the world and remembering that we focus on relationships first and our pensions will generally come out anyway. And even if it doesn't, we've worked through anything. Any bumps that have come up. I don't mean just between the two of us. I mean, between like us and clients. Between us – and we've already worked through all of those. And remembering that that has been the case.

Basically, building a different set of assumptions instead of the assumptions that are piling up. It's building up assumptions for this could be good and/or will be good in the long-term is actually the much more common case. Then this will all end in ashes. 

Cristina Amigoni: And sometimes it does end in ashes. 

Alex Cullimore: And sometimes that's necessary. That's not even – 

Cristina Amigoni: And sometimes that's necessary. And sometimes it just is. It's not good or bad. It's not ashes or rainbows. It just is. And we learn from that. 

Alex Cullimore: And remembering that is again a good measure of presence too. Just being in the present moment.

Cristina Amigoni: What else would help you? 

Alex Cullimore: It's just a matter I think of practicing these things over and over again. It's been becoming more of a default to do the practice. At some point, I think it will feel less like practice and more like a default that's happened with other changes before and other changes in how I interact with the world. I don't foresee this being particularly different. It's just a matter of continuing the practice. 

And I guess the only other thing left at that point is finding space and – grace and space for, which is our new acronym, GAS, or GAS ourselves – 

Cristina Amigoni: That could work. You get space when you have GAS. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. How to have that space in the rough places. And how to refuel? GAS does apply. 

Cristina Amigoni: GAS does apply in all sorts of ways. 

Alex Cullimore: In so many ways.

Cristina Amigoni: So many puns. What's a thought or a mantra that you could rely on when you're in that moment and the weeds are taking over and you just want to let them be? Because that's the default. That's the default. Autopilot. How can you get back into the present in a quick way or in a significant way before it's backpedaling? 

Alex Cullimore: I think the phrase I am responsible for me comes up. It fits into a lot of other – it fits well. Because first it isolates the sphere responsibility. It reminds me of where I actually have responsibility. It also reinforces that that is a responsibility. That is where action needs to be taken. I have the responsibility for that. And it's one of the most powerful and painful lessons that I kind of had to internalize over years is the idea of nobody's coming to save you. I mean that in a positive way. It has to be you. There's nobody else going to come through the door. You're the one who's going to have to walk through the door. You'll have to do these. 

I've felt that more as an empowering statement over the course of time. And so, that also it relates back to that. I think both those angles help that become a pretty potent short reminder.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Very good points of view that I am only responsible for me on both sides of that. And then I actually have a responsibility for what I think and how I show up. And I don't have the responsibility for how other people think can show up. 

Alex Cullimore: Not only do I have the power to do something for myself. But I have to. That is my obligation and commitment to myself.

Cristina Amigoni: How else can this session, mini session help you?

Alex Cullimore: This has been good. Helps remind me and clarify some things and remember what direction I want to move in.

Cristina Amigoni: Sounds good. Good journey.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for the coaching.

Cristina Amigoni: You're welcome.

Alex Cullimore: Are you ready for the switch? 

Cristina Amigoni: Sure. Let's switch. As ready as it gets.

Alex Cullimore: All right. I actually want to start in the same place. Because it's an interesting starting place. What situations are you most confident and least confident? 

Cristina Amigoni: You always ask the question that I know how to answer for myself. I should change – 

Alex Cullimore: It's almost like you're – 

Cristina Amigoni: I should change my plan around. This is not working. Asking the question that I don't want to answer doesn't actually take it off the list.

What situations am I most or least confident in? Similar answer. Things I've done before. I can rely on the history. On knowing that I figured it out before. I can figure it out again. And the unknowns are definitely sometimes a little more scary. There's definitely a least confident. 

I would say trying to flip it and think of the moments where I'm least confident in. I would say a big piece also goes back to my core values of human connections. I have way more confidence when I'm not alone than when I am alone and at the same time I have a lot of confidence when I'm alone. It's a weird dichotomy. In the sense that when I'm alone, similar to what you said, I don't have to rely on somebody else. And I know I can rely on myself. That's a very quick switch. I'm like I figure things out on my own in the past. I can figure it out on my own. 

However, it's almost like it's more of a journey. Like I have an initial fear and worry when I'm alone that I don't have when I'm not when I am with trusted people that I know I can – it has to be specific people. I mean, it's not just random person. A UPS – like the UPS guy that just dropped by and decided to ring the bell. No. That probably wouldn't help me at all.

But trusted people, it's almost like I don't even have to go through the journey of remembering that I can do things on my own and I'll be fine. I'm already there. And so, that's one piece. But I'm sure there's a lot of digging deeper into both of those answers if there are answers.

Alex Cullimore: I think those are answers – there's a couple different pieces there you mentioned. There's the idea that sometimes unknowns will create that, which is understandable. And sometimes the feeling of being alone. There's two kind of branches we can we can pull out there. Does either of those speak to you more as one you'd like to explore? 

Cristina Amigoni: I assume that they're related, honestly. They're probably intertwined. I guess we can start with the unknowns and see how we match it back to people. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Well. To dive into some of that, there are times when there are unknowns. What types of unknowns would you categorize as creating some of that or feeling less confident in? 

Cristina Amigoni: The unknowns. To actually tap into our working geniuses. I am not a wonder and inventor. Or I have some – I think one of them is in my – I think maybe wonder is in my competency and invention is in my frustrations. Or vice versa. I can't remember. 

While there is an element of wonder and invention that I like to do, I do struggle with a blank page. And a blank page doesn't have to just be something that I have to create like a marketing collateral, or a project plan, or anything like that. A blank page could be anything. It could be an experience. An unknown experience is a blank page. 

And so, if I can have enough even just a few elements of understanding to put on that blank page, that's where I lose confidence. Because then if I tap into my working genius of discernment, all I need is something. If I have something, then I will connect all the dots and figure it all out and my confidence is back. The blank page is unknowns.

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. Having something to react to. How true is it that things start on a blank page? 

Cristina Amigoni: Not true actually. Most things don't. And so, when I get past the being paralyzed by the blank page and I look for where can I find some information so that the page is not blank, then I move pretty fast through that. Because whether it's, I don't know, ChatGPT, or Google, or people, something, some information. And some information always exists. And so, it's just a matter of figuring out where do I go find the information and how can I move from there? 

Alex Cullimore: Makes sense. Once you again find that seed. Let's dive in a little bit to the idea of the paralysis before the seed then. What actions, if any, do you take when you're feeling that paralysis of a blank page? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, now we can connect it back to people. 

Alex Cullimore: We got there.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It's all one big onion of messiness. I would say the first step is definitely people. If I feel like I have someone I can reach out to, then, again, very quick journey. Reach out. Even just brainstorming or send a question out. Or even just – it doesn't even have to be a question. 

My lack of confidence comes from, interestingly enough, not being really attached to an outcome or being really attached to something and not knowing that my authentic self is enough. And so, the fear of the rejection will then permeate and take over so that my actions are not what my authentic actions would be. I'm not quite sure how I got all the way there. But I got there.

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense.

Cristina Amigoni: That's where I – 

Alex Cullimore: I mean, it relates directly to what we talked about last time and some of the authenticity in marketing. And feeling like if I'm not enough here, what does that mean? What's the rejection – what does that – what does the lack of response mean? Does that feel like rejection? It feels like that ties in well. If it does, it would make sense that that would be particularly triggering and difficult to just face. That's a prime gremlin after midnight throwing chicken in their pen – 

Cristina Amigoni: Under a shower. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, that makes sense. Yes. Under a shower. It's just gremlins are for running everything. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. That's pretty much how it feels. In that space, it's really hard for me to see me. Because there's just so much chaos that it's very hard for me to even figure out what would my authentic self do in this situation. 

Also, knowing that half the time I get halfway there maybe. And then the lack of confidence, and the fear and the worry brings me back to being the primary driver of the message, the action, the words, the showing up. And then feeling the shame afterwards. Because once it's out there, it's like that's not me. What drove that? That's not how I would respond, or ask a question, or show up. Not true authentic me.

Alex Cullimore: There's multiple layers there about what kind of trigger there. Physically, in your body, when you're in that state of the gremlins have been fed and watered, it's after midnight, what does that feel like? 

Cristina Amigoni: They're all over the place. 

Alex Cullimore: What physically comes up? 

Cristina Amigoni: It feels like – because there's so many of them out there and they're so loud and obnoxious, it feels like I no longer exist. I'm now confined into this – like I have to get smaller, and smaller, and smaller and smaller to the point of really not – that's why like not being able to see myself in the overrun of gremlins.

And so, in my body, I would say it feels – this is for the bigger situations. Not the smaller ones. But for the bigger situations. I would say a lot of it I feel it in my heart. It's almost like there's something closing in around my heart and it's like making it Grinch-size instead of expanding it. 

Alex Cullimore: Grinch early in the movie.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, early in the movie. Yes. Early Grinch-size. But it's like it's forcing it to disappear because, at the core of it all, that's what is being rejected.

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. Yeah. There's a feeling of kind a clench around your heart. That feeling of shrinking and constricting. Yeah. What an interesting thing in how you described it as you feel like the gremlins start running everywhere and can't figure out how – the first question is how can I be my authentic self here? How am I supposed to like show up? 

And you can tell me if it doesn't feel right internally to you, but it sounds almost like that is asking for action in the middle of a gremlin storm. I'm curious if there's any space that you might provide yourself between the gremlins on rampage and feeling like you have to take an action.

Cristina Amigoni: Probably not as much as I could. I think I've learned through coaching and a lot of work in the years to minimize when those situations happen. They're fairly minimal. I have to say, like if I had to even think back of the last few years, I hadn't felt that way in a long time. I have been feeling that way recently every once in a while. But it's part of not knowing how to do it is because like, wait, I don't feel this way normally. I don't know how to deal with this. This feels like a memory from the past but it's in the present and it's taking over.

Alex Cullimore: Like that first day of skiing every season. You're like, "I haven't used any of these muscles in a while. Oh, God." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. Much scarier though. Because there's gremlins pushing you down the mountain.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Yes. More intensive.

Cristina Amigoni: Over a cliff. 

Alex Cullimore: If you think about some of those past times and give yourself some awareness now, and hopefully you're not feeling currently triggered, but if we can talk about that too. But if you're not currently feeling a gremlin storm, what are actions that have helped in the past move through that or things that you learned in those years before? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I would say I'm currently feeling it enough for the memory to be real, which helps. Because as I said, I totally forgot until I was like I don't know these feelings. What's helped me in the past? Unfortunately – and I say unfortunately because I know what the path is. And I don't have the patience for it. It's not like not having the patience for it has ever come up in any of my coaching sessions. That's never an issue for me.

I mean, it's not just time as in the sense time heals everything. Time doesn't heal anything. It's time and work. But a lot of it is time in the sense of letting go of the feeling of wanting the feeling to be gone. Letting go of wanting whatever answer I don't have. Whatever data. Whatever information I am attached to that needs to show up on the blank page and it's just not. No matter how much I wish it and pray for it, that it's just not happening. 

And really digging into trusting the process. And so, that's my sentence a lot is just trust the process. I have a couple of them. One that I use in meditation, which is I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. Let it go and trust the process. As in, eventually, I won't feel this way anymore. Things may not change. I don't know how things will change. I don't know the future. but I can like go to the point of at some point I'm going to look back and be like, "Huh. That's gone." And now here's a new situation and now – pretty much exactly how I've been going through it in the last few weeks or so where I hadn't realized these were feelings I hadn't had for three or four years. Or if they haven't been so persistent. They've been for smaller things. And so, it's like, "Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Just go back. You're done. No more chicken. You're turning vegan. Weight it out." 

But the persistent part has been it doesn't happen – thankfully, it doesn't happen very often. And now it's just more of a matter of like I'm going to have to co-live with these gremlins for a while. I don't know when they're going to leave.

Alex Cullimore: I mean, it would make sense that there might be some feeling of impatience especially if you feel like you've gotten through this before. Anybody who has done any recognition of gremlins knows that's not a fun place to be in. That gremlins are tiring. And so, feeling that and you're obviously very conscious of generally how energies are going and how you're feeling in your own life. I can see how that might influence impatience as well. I know this doesn't have to be. I know I've been through here before and I don't really want this to be here now. That would absolutely make sense. Feeling it's unnecessary while simultaneously knowing that what you just said that this may be some time where you have to co-live with some of these Gremlins. 

Thinking about some of that co-living as well as acceptance of gremlins being present, what are ways you can step into that space? 

Cristina Amigoni: Patience. The lack of patience is going to require patience shockingly enough. 

Alex Cullimore: Impatience will require patience. 

Cristina Amigoni: I know. Patience has to be one of the disciplines. I don't think it is. But I don't know why it's not. Patience in the sense of patience for myself. Patience for wanting the gremlins to be gone. Space, which is a double-edged sword. Because in some situations space is exactly what I don't need. And yet, it's what the gremlins want me to take. 

In some situations, space will create even more unknown. Because now I have even more time to create stories and try to discern them and not having the data. So, now I'm creating story and discerning them. And then discerning myself out of the discernment and creating more stories. I need to shift how I use that space. Because the space is not for discernment. This is not let's kill this thing to death and come up with even more theories that then I debunk. But it's a different type of space. And I don't know that I know what kind of space can provide the non-pinning and discernment and creating stories, but more of the space of just be patient. It will be over. It always is. To get there. 

Alex Cullimore: It sounds like there's some good delineation of different types of space there. There's a space that is a chicken and water for gremlins. And there is a space that is processing and more patience. And not processing in the discerning sense sounds like there's almost a conflict there where processing – that at some point in the process it becomes some of that discerning. But there early in the process, it may not be helpful to try and discern when that's just feeding new theories to create other types of gremlins, or options, or scenarios that might pop up.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and typically, the situations that cause so many gremlins to go nuts and get fed under showers and rainstorms, there are situations where I will never know. The blank page will always be the blank page. I just get to the point where I am willing to accept that and not look at it anymore. And it's like the blank page is just not part of everyday life anymore. I never get the answers. I never get the data that I desperately want so that I can move on or can move through it. Or I can connect the dots and figure out what the next step is. The next step is acceptance. In a lot of those cases, they stick around to lot. A lot of acceptance of a blank page, which is really difficult.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, there's the desire to kind of know. And you've done a great job of doing things like learning from all kinds of past instances. You do a lot of meditation and processing of what has happened. If there are things that feels like there's no possibility of gaining new data on, that would be something that would feel unresolved in a world where other things can be resolved with that data and moving through that after the blank page phase. 

What do you think drives some of that lack of acceptance of a blank page? 

Cristina Amigoni: Change that leads to a fear of rejection. I mean, we're back there. Or a rejection that becomes more concrete maybe. So, that fear is now in my mind, in my story. Because, again, it's still a blank page in my story. It's almost like the data has switched to prove rejection instead of acceptance. 

Alex Cullimore: Similar to a space being for gremlins, there's a delineation between data sometimes being for gremlins and creating that and reinforcing the idea of the eraser and reinforcing the idea of the rejection in that. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's like, "Oh. Well, see? You really don't exist. I don't know why you thought you existed for these many weeks, months, years. Here's your proof. Or here's your interpretation of the proof." 

Alex Cullimore: That absolutely makes sense that that would not only feed into itself but also be incredibly difficult to sit with and have a very powerful influence over the current state of what you're feeling if it's feeling like, "Hey, here's proof of what you always –" the core gremlin is always the thing you're most concerned of. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, the king gremlin. The one with the crown that walks around with a – I think in the movie it had like the white mohawk instead of just being a gremlin. He's the one that gets really – he just nods and like, "I told you so. This is it. This is your existence." Non-existence is your existence.

Alex Cullimore: And one thing we talk a lot about in tech and coach training is like, obviously, gremlins are the core of all fears, is the not enough of everything. And we know that we can find lots of great strategies for understanding them, for putting them in perspective, for learning and using them. And we know that we can't – as nice as it would sound, we can't Spanish them. We can't leave them forever. 

If you were to think of the king Gremlin, the thing that we know can't fully be banished, what are ways you can visualize that gremlin differently in a way that it's easier to coexist with? 

Cristina Amigoni: I'll probably have to watch the movie to figure out like how does that go back into being a normal little fuzzy stuffed animal. I don't know. That's a big one. And I don't know that we have enough time actually to unpack that one. I would say some of the things that help, and I know they help, is to look for different data for different situations. 

Instead of trying to fill the data on the blank page that I can't fill, it's look at the other pages. What other pages exist that I have data on? And just focus on that and start moving that blank page further and further away to the back of the book or bottom of the drawer. That's helped in the past. It's like I can't give the king – I can't put the king gremlin on the stage and keep him there. I kind of have to slowly transition him to like what if you go on the right? What if you get off the stage? What if you start walking towards the back of the stage? What if you open that door and leave for at least a little bit? 

Alex Cullimore: Yes, it's invites and as well as recognition that there are other stages. You've had other places that are not blank pages. Looking at the data of other situations. Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Well. And also, recognizing that he's always going to come back. He's always there. And that's okay. I think a big piece that's causing – that's giving him strength is the self-shame for feeling the way I do. For creating the stories. For looking for the data. For not being able to just accept. And so, he feeds on the chicken. And in this case is the shame that I shouldn't be feeling this way. I'm stronger than this. I should know better than this. There a lot of should happening. 

Alex Cullimore: Shoulding all over the place. Yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. A lot of shoulds happening. How could I have possibly felt this way? Or why do I feel this way? And I should know better than that. Just a lot of that. And if I can accept that it's fine, all of it, there's no shoulding on these feelings. They're perfectly normal. They are valid. they're not valid just because I can't put them on a page and they're out there feeding the gremlin. 

Alex Cullimore: It makes sense. It makes sense that gremlins are full of shoulds. The question that remains and one interesting portion of gremlins is that they always appear. They are created in our lives to help us be protected from something. They do serve a purpose. We often think of them almost in an antagonistic sense. Because it's difficult to deal with them. But they come from a place of trying to protect and serve us. How do you think your gremlin has either in the past, if it's not now, served you? Why do you think it is there? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I know it definitely served me when it got created when I was a very young child. I would say that as I've recognized its existence and the fact that it's never going to go away. I've been thinking about that quite a bit. And I don't know that I have an answer to that. I'm not quite sure what the role of the gremlin is in the most recent situations. 

Or mainly, let me rephrase. What I think the role is from past, from just patterns of thinking about – of giving him that role in the past, I don't want to give him that role basically. Because I actually believe that if I do, it just makes him stronger for the next time. It validates instead of it's not a different role. It just validates the strength. 

And so, that's probably been the most struggle is like I get you're here. I get you need to be here. I get you're trying to do something and you need a role but I don't know what that is.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. That makes sense. That kind of goes back to that idea of just being resistance over the acceptance of the existence.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: Which absolutely makes sense. It's hard to accept that especially as you've done already so much work that has minimize that in the past, you haven't felt this often. It's a hard space to feel like you have to step back into even whether or not you know it's necessary or whether or not it's there. It's hard to just jump into that.

How might you explore that a little bit or give yourself some space to do some of that work? 

Cristina Amigoni: I'll probably have to journal. I think I've been thinking about it. I just haven't done it mainly because I can't read my own handwriting. I have to figure out whether it matters or not that I go back and read it. Because if it doesn't, then it doesn't really matter that I can't read my own handwriting and I can actually physically do it. 

I think journaling and doing in some consistent way. So, not just once but maybe every day and figuring out like what's the message here. What the opportunity? What could the role of the gremlin be? What could he be helping me? Why is he here? It's the why is he here that it's fuzzy? Because I'm like, "Okay. I get you're the critic. You're doing a spectacular job." 

Alex Cullimore: Bravo. 

Cristina Amigoni: You can get an Oscar every year for that. But why are you here now? What could you actually help with besides taking all the stage presence? And – yes. And just flying shoulds all over the place. 

Alex Cullimore: Why are you here? What is the cost of having you here? Where is this – 

Cristina Amigoni: What's the benefit? 

Alex Cullimore: What do I want from you? What's the benefit from having you here? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. What's the benefit of having you here? That's not the same as the past. Because I don't want that. That's not a benefit. That's a cost mark is a benefit. I'll have to do that.

Alex Cullimore: What space do you have this week to do that?

Cristina Amigoni: I think that space is going to happen in a few weeks. I don't know that I have much. I could probably do some tomorrow morning and Sunday. 

Alex Cullimore: Potentially, tomorrow morning. Potentially, Sunday. If you can't or if there isn't, how do you give yourself space for the couple weeks or whatever until you can? 

Cristina Amigoni: Trying to mass the chicken. Try to feed tofu. Or just accept that he's going to be around for a while.

Alex Cullimore: Any other ways that you might be able to give yourself some GAS on this? 

Cristina Amigoni: Probably. I mean, I think realistically speaking, I have time to journal every day. I'm just choosing not to because I don't want to actually see the words on the blank page that come out. I think maybe starting that and see what happens. Extra meditations has worked in the past. I think I need to meditate more.

Alex Cullimore: What accountability, if any, can I help by? 

Cristina Amigoni: I guess ask me if I have actually try to journal at some point. If I'm still avoiding it. 

Alex Cullimore: I know that you can and will do this at some points. I know that you will face this. It's something you've done before. You'll be able to do this one again. This will be another one. And I also wish you the best of luck in the journey. Because it's always a fun one but it is always a growth one. And so, there's a lot of excitements that I'm sure will be. And I know there will be more on the other side of this that you'll get out of it. I wish you the best during this journey. It's been a fun one.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. It's lots of fun. Thank you.

Alex Cullimore: Anything else you want to close the session with? 

Cristina Amigoni: No. I'm all good. I mean, this could be a 48-hour coaching session. Let's go with that. 

Alex Cullimore: It's gremlin work. This could be forever. Yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Gremlin work is – yes. Right when you think you're done with it, it comes back and punches you in the gut. Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: Collidescope of little angles it will come back from. Yes.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yeah. Thank you. This was very helpful.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the curiosity and the openness. 

Cristina Amigoni: And thank you everybody for listening.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review, and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human.

[END]