Coaching Through iPEC’s COR.E Dynamics: Fearlessness

This episode includes our interpretations of copyrighted works done by the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching or iPEC.

Alex Cullimore: Adam Grant talked about this in his most recent book, Hidden Potential. He talks about the fact that the process of writing is a great way of just thinking. It forces you to get clarity on your thinking. It's really fun activity for that reason.

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

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Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

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“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. We are continuing our journey looking through some of the materials coming out of iPEC COR.E Dynamic Program. And going through the disciplines has been the latest effort. We are on the next discipline, which is fearlessness. Fearlessness coming on the tail end of awareness, acceptance, conscious choice, trusting the process and authenticity. We are all the way down. Feel free to check out those episodes if you want to know more about those. They will still come up. And I'm sure interplay when we discuss fearlessness. But this is very powerful. And like all the other ones, and we've said this before, but it's worth repeating. Easy to logically understand. Difficult to emotionally understand. And a constant practice.

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed. Yes. Definitely a discipline.

Alex Cullimore: All these are truly disciplines. These are things you do. You do again. You try. You try to get better at. You try and just make it a practice. Then you have to lean back on them. Other times, go spin out and get hard. 

And this is fearlessness. It's not the idea of being brave, but actually having no fear living without not just courage, which is more defined in terms of acting even when you're afraid. But actually having no fears to overcome. Feeling like you can operate from a place of not having that weight and that hesitation.

Cristina Amigoni: Which is interesting. Because it's not a discipline that teaches you to eliminate fear as much as being aware what fear is, where it comes from and how can you not let it paralyze you. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. In some ways, it's almost like that. We talked in authenticity about how authenticity is power. And when you try, when you have to put on a mask that's not authentic, you have to use force. I think that's kind of some of the delineation I see in my mind between this idea of fearlessness and courage. The fear will exist. It's not that you can't have the emotions. You won't have the emotions. It would be very much oppressive to yourself, and exhausting and a lot of force to try and ignore that or pretend like you shouldn't have any fear. It's about being able to operate regardless of that and not have that weigh in on the decisions. And so, it's knowing that it is there. And so, in that way, it is not force. It is power. It is acknowledging and moving forward. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Yeah. If we think about even in parenting or when we know something that other people might not have experienced yet. And so, we have built the resilience, and the experience and the courage to go through it again. Because we know you can get to the other side. It's really not about telling someone like, "Well, you have nothing to be afraid of." No. No. Feel your fear, but understand where it comes from and understand how to not let it direct your choices and your action.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. It's a great way of putting it. We all have fears. And they have a good definition and way to think about it. Fear is the anticipation of a negative outcome. It is what we get into. And then to your point, that we can feel that for ourselves. We can feel that for other people. We can have that built-in resilience that might tell us that we can do this differently. 

And so, this discipline is about being able to understand that we may have those anticipations. But if we can let go of that and live in the moment and have a chance to kind of reason with a more full and energetic mind, we can take on something totally different. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I think that, in the moment, the difference between anticipation and in the moment is the big piece of that fearlessness. Fearlessness lives in the present moment. Because as you're doing, you're doing. And so, you've gone past the fear. The fear is not stopping you. And any fear that may stop you is because it's the anticipation of what you think may happen next. It's not present. And fear is about the future. 

And that I remember when going through this, it was one of the first big steps of understanding what fearlessness meant if we think about that we are afraid of something that we think may happen in the future. But in that moment, when we are doing, that's where all our focus is. We're actually not afraid in the moment. We may be afraid of the next step, but not in this step we're in. Because we're doing it.

Alex Cullimore: And it's not about like mustering up the ability to just put that fear in a corner. It's about being able into that practice where you are in the moment making those conscious choices and being cognizant of when the voices that are coming up are fear-based. And being able to let go of those having influence on your next actions. And so, in that moment, you're not having those direct what you'll be doing. That's where we get to live in some of that fearlessness. 

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely. If we think about disciplines and how they build up to fearlessness. Authenticity, I find it's a huge tie to it. Because in the moment, the one thing you can choose, if you tap into the power of your authenticity, the one thing you choose is I'm just going to show up as me and let everything go. And that's where you can get unstuck and you can move forward. 

I think about it every time we facilitate a training session, any fear and trepidation that I have, any anxiety is before. But once in the session, and speaking and interacting, it's gone. Because I'm in it. And also, whenever it pops up, when the feeling pops up of like the next thing I'm going to say, or the next section, or the next something, I go back to what's my authenticity. It's like how do I show up as me? Because that is the only thing I can control. I can control what's going to happen around me.

Alex Cullimore: And building on the other disciplines, that is that conscious choice to go step into that and be that. And know enough of your authenticity that it's easier to know what that decision might look like. And then you make the conscious choice to do that and do this with some of that fearlessness. And you've done enough work and kind of understand like some of the patterns you've seen before and knowing that you'll get through this. Knowing that, regardless, you would want to show up as an authentic person here. And those are things that build up and allow you to be especially present in that fearless space.

Cristina Amigoni: When we think of common fears, common anticipations of something, it's really – some of the most common ones are not being good enough. That's the major gremlin. That's the major inner critic there. When it all boils down to other forms of that, it's the not being good enough. Fear of failure. Fear of success, which I find interesting. Because I couldn't quite grasp it for a long time. 

And I think I'm finally getting there of the difference between fear of failure and fear of success. And fear of embarrassment. Again, showing up and not being accepted. Embarrassment. Performing poorly. Looking foolish. Which is also tied to not being good enough and embarrassment. Making mistakes. Also tied to failure. Losing someone. The loss is a big one or something that you hold dear. We all grieve losses, big or small. Because they are a big component of just our human nature of being social beings. And so, the fear of losing someone or something that you hold dear, you don't have a gap. You don't have a hole that you need to feel. Losing one's health, aging, all of those pieces. And then the biggest fears of all is the fear of the unknown. 

Alex Cullimore: And when I read through those, it feels like there really are basically two buckets. There's not good enough, which underpins the majority of our feelings. And there's loss of our identity, loss of our age, loss of our health, loss of somebody who's close to us, loss of something that's important to us. Those are all ones that we can anticipate in fear. Almost all the others feel like they boil down to not being good enough. Fear of the unknown is feeling we might not be enough to face whatever that challenge is. Fear of change is not thinking we're enough to make it through that or to be the person we need to be on the other side of that. Failure or success. All these are the same. If you fail, you weren't good enough to succeed. If you succeed, are you good enough to continue? If you're embarrassed, you weren't enough to figure out the right way to do this. And same with making mistakes. With looking foolish. Any of these are not being "good enough" by whatever estimation we have in our head that we haven't made it up to that. And I think those are two really core buckets to fear. We will then dress it up with so many different rationalizations. But at the core, those feel like the real solid center of any – 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Which is having the exploration and the tools to dig deeper is when you hear or you're feeling something. And it's to actually get to the core. It's like, "Okay, I'm anxious about this presentation." Okay, why are you anxious about the presentation?" "Well, because I may embarrass myself." "Why are you anxious about embarrassing yourself?" "What do you think will happen if you do?" "Well, I won't be good enough. And I'll also be alone." You've got the abandonment of the social beings, the human social beings of like now I'm out of the tribe and I'm going to get attacked and killed by a sabretooth tiger. And also, I'm not good enough. Because if I were, the tribe wouldn't abandon me to be alone. Understanding that there's layers of that and not just focusing on the surface and thinking, "Okay, I'm done." 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Well, I get nervous about presentations. Yeah. That's just – that's it. That's not it. That's just a representation of whatever it is. And so, that's that clarity that you can find. And you can ask yourself those questions. We always like to talk about in our leadership classes how using why can be a challenging one when we do it for other people. If you feel comfortable doing that for yourself and you're not doing it in a judgmental way, you don't feel like you're delivering judgment with that, it's great to ask those kind of like five whys. Well, why am I worried about this? And why does that cause me anxiety? And why would that cause this?

And that's a great way of getting down to some of those cores. And if we're doing this in coaching, it's probably going to be a lot more of what's the story you're telling yourself about how this might happen? What would that mean if that – what would it mean to you if you didn't have this go the way you would like it to? Or what are you worried that will say about you? What are those fears? And really diving down so that we can get to that core. So, if we can address the core, we can figure out our way around that instead of just continually skating over this surface one. And then the next time it comes up, just being like, "Yeah, I'm going to be nervous about this again." You can keep doing that. It's possible. It can be tiring. 

Cristina Amigoni: It takes a lot of focus and energy. And a lot away from showing up with authenticity and mastery. And it's interesting. Because looking at the core and understanding where is this coming from is building on that awareness discipline. It's s like figuring out what am I supposed to be aware of that's actually going on here? 

And then the acceptance piece is also very important because that's when we realize, as humans, it is a completely natural response to have fear based on situations that change and situations that we can't control. And so, once we can accept that like I'm not afraid because I'm not good enough. And now you're compound in feelings or meta feelings. You're afraid because you're human. 

And so, that's it. Humans' natural response is the self-protection. Because self-protection is now being threatened. And so, your mind will go to fear. And then the conscious choice is, "Well, what do I want to do about that?" 

Alex Cullimore: And to that point, there is humanity in just not feeling good enough. That's a core human natural thing to happen too. We are constantly kind of evaluating that largely because of things that you're saying like the idea that the tribe might not accept us and that we might be kicked out. We want to be good enough for that because it's a huge portion of our survival, which is why it gets so tied to fear. 

And another huge understanding there is knowing that these things will pop up subconsciously. These things will pop up but before we can consciously process them. And so, getting more and more of that awareness helps us get ahead of it. And then when it is coming up, change our course quickly without having that derail us or become the guiding factor of our next decisions. 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. Should we get into coaching? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Let's go ahead and jump into some fearlessness coaching. 

Cristina Amigoni: You choose this time. I chose last time. 

Alex Cullimore: I will coach. 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. Let's do it. There's my fearlessness. 

Alex Cullimore: Wow. Jumping right in. Wow. Practicing that fearlessness.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly.

Alex Cullimore: All right. Let's start with the top-level one. What are some ways in which you believe fear affects your current performance with regards to the actions you must take to make your desired changes? 

Cristina Amigoni: That is a good question. I would say it affects my focus. If I focus on the anticipation of what I think may happen and I go to worst-case scenario that I'm not present. Whether it's present to doing whatever I'm supposed to be doing, or listening, or being with the people around me. Or even present to build the confidence to take the next step. If I'm not here, then I can't be focusing on the potentials. I can't be focusing on what needs to be done. Because I'm focusing on what I think may happen after I do it. And so, that's definitely the focus is impacted. 

I would say just relationships in general, energy becomes very catabolic. It definitely becomes very either I need to protect myself by closing in or by fighting others. And that's draining. It's exhausting. And I would say it definitely blocks. That's where if I think of anything that I want to do, but I don't and I procrastinate on. At the core of it, there's some fear. It's not just about task that I may not enjoy. Because we do those every day, all day. There's tasks we don't enjoy. We may not enjoy cooking, but yet we figure out how to make food so that we can actually eat and or figure out how to get food in some other ways. 

It's not about not enjoying. It's really about what's the fear? What's the core fear that's driving me to find the distractions? That's driving me to chase the shiny object so that I don't do what I'm supposed to be doing. What I know I want to do because it's in the future. And it isn't on the plan. And there's a reason why it's there. But yet, it's this constant just hitting the wall on the action of it. 

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. And we talk a lot about things like we should, we have to, we need to and all those words being fairly identifiable as old. Now we might be feeling some kind of obligation. But what you're saying there is that you have things you want to get to and this fear is getting in the way of potentially getting to those that you know you want to do. It can manifest in ways like not being present. It can manifest in ways like not being present with people that you're around with. Feeling more catabolic. The focus is a little bit more pulled in different directions rather than directed towards that want and that need makes the fear coming up as kind of a cloud and a barrier to all of that. 

With that awareness of that, what all those manifestations might be that might come up? What are some situations or a situation that you have going on currently where you feel like you may have some of that drawn focus? That pulled distraction? 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm trying to think. I'm trying to narrow it down. I would say – and I think we've talked about this before. But I would say some of the marketing work that we have started for our company. There's a lot of procrastination and blocks there. And so, the discovery there is to figure out like what's the fear behind it? What's the fear that's at the very core of chasing the distractions and the procrastinations? 

And I would say there's definitely a big not being good enough. It's both from the execution of the tasks. As in I have a vision. I know what I want to see. And yet, I don't think I'm good enough to be the one creating it. To be the one executing it. Finding ways to not do it or for others to do it so that I don't have to be the one that fails at it because of the lack of good enough. Which then in turn also causes the abandonment, the tribe going away, leaving. I would say, yeah.

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. That feeling of like maybe you can't deliver the thing you want to. It's like sometimes I feel that way when you look at like paintings. You're like, "Oh, man. I have this idea. It would be beautiful to paint this thing. But I don't have the brush strokes, the capacity to do that. I've never practiced any of that. And I know that that feels far away." 

It can feel like there's a giant barrier between the mental image of what we'd like to get to and feeling like maybe there's not the skills there. And that naturally would lead into things like that worry about abandonment. That worry about like I'm not good enough. Does that then disqualify me from the tribe? Where do I end up accidentally tripping over and falling out of belonging? 

To focus that on some of the marketing and some of the ideas that like we want to get to that. You want to be able to deliver some of that. You mentioned like you wouldn't want to fail at it. What would failure look like? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say what failure would look like is a couple of things. One is just the quality. It's not good enough. And so, the intention behind the product is not reached the outcome. Instead of causing clarity or drawing people to understand who we are and what we do, it does the opposite. It doesn't become clear. And it causes confusion. 

And at the same time, also, when you think about marketing in a business and how tied it is to business development, it's like, well, if it's not clear and the quality is poor, then the business development piece could suffer. And if the business development piece could suffer, that could end up with being like, "Ah, we now have this business that's going to – not going." 

One of the ways to unpack the fears for me is to go to worst case scenario, is worst case scenario is like we get no clients. All our clients abandon us. We get no new ones and we shut down the business. And this big vision and dream that we've built and been living, it's over.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. That's some huge stakes. That makes sense. That would be particularly stressful to be facing down the barrel of and feel like there's like a linchpin of marketing to potentially could be a catalyst or breaking down a support that is key to something that is important to you. The vision of the business. The ability to continue that. Understanding that that looks like you mentioned, like I'm worried that the quality may not be good enough. What is good quality marketing mean to you? 

Cristina Amigoni: I guess it's when it's clear. When the message is clear. When it's capturing the audience and when it becomes a dialogue. Not just a sharing of information. It becomes an evoking a feeling and experience for whomever reads it. 

Alex Cullimore: Dialogue. Feeling centered and clear. That makes sense. Yes, that would be it sounds like powerful marketing. What are there other aspects of life and or work where you find you have to create that kind of dialogue, clarity and feeling? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say almost all of them. I think the difference maybe between the marketing is that, in most of the other aspects, there's a chance for human connections. For actual human connection. There's a chance for standing up up or being in the room with the humans during facilitation or consulting engagement or a meeting where there's an actual dialogue. There's a dialogue between me and the recipients. And there's a back and forth. And there's an understanding. And there's a building of trust and relationship based on recognizing that the human connection is what creates that trust. 

There's chances for clarification when it's not clear. There's chances for questions. And marketing in the sense of just sending messages out there, there's a lack of human connection. Because it's just I send a message out there. And if people see it and somehow something intrigues them to stop, there's maybe one-second opportunity to create that connection in a way of the information actually being received and creating curiosity. 

There is no, "Oh, let's go for coffee and chat for a while. Or let's get on a meeting and talk about this. There's none of that. It's all about the surface immediately first impression. And it's probably even way less than a second. The opportunity to connect with another human's experience and feelings, it's almost pure luck.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah and that would feel like a lot to rest. Something that's as important as the vision and stuff on is having at rest on a pure luck. It sounds like one of the main factors there is the idea that even when you're creating connection, or relationship, or feeling, or clarity in other areas of life, it's more fault tolerant to paraphrase to be able to do that when there's human connection. Because there's ways to adjust what you're saying. There's second chances. There's conversations. There's dialogue. There's back. And forth and there's a growing ability to connect and draw that understanding. That makes sense that we would be more able to work and continue when you have more of that human connection. And that marketing might feel especially in the – it sounds like the one-way direction that you're feeling like it is where you're sending out the message just to the universe and seeing what might the universe. I mean, the internet, and seeing what is responded with that it might not have that chance. 

When it comes to people being intrigued or having a conversation with us, how true is it that we are alone and don't have the human connection in that or one way? How true has that been? 

Cristina Amigoni: Oh, we're not sure at all. I think we could definitely be in a conversation and still being alone and not have the human connection. I just think it's easier to, well, pick up on that. And also choose to not be in that conversation. The connection is not happening, then it's not worth anybody's time. Move on.

Alex Cullimore: What you're saying is there would be the ability to then evaluate that connection. And if it's not there, feel confident to be like, "Okay, this is not the right place. Let's step away." Knowing that you can feel that way after the connection, how might that translate, if at all, to the feeling of sending out marketing in the electronic way? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say similar in the sense of we're not going to connect with everybody, the marketing, whatever the message is out there. It's not going to connect with everybody. When it does, the other side is going to pause. We won't really know, I guess. That's maybe where it get stuck is because when you are having a conversation, you know if the connection is not there and you can make a conscious choice at that point. With marketing, it's more about putting a bunch of stuff out there and then that's it. 

And so, it's a constant expectation of perfection and expectations of like is the lack of receiving the message back. It's like sending a message to the universe, into the universe, which it really is what it is. You're sending a message out in the universe. And is the fact that you don't get anything back because nobody's heard it. Or is it because somebody has heard it but they millions of light-years away? And so, we'll receive the signal back when it gets there and it'll be completely disconnected from a timeline perspective. Or is it that they've heard it and that's the entire connection that's needed there? There is no follow-up. It's that unknown. 

I mean, if we talk about fear of the unknown being the biggest one of all, that's it. Marketing feels a lot of just constantly facing the unknown. Putting a lot of effort and putting a lot of work and energy into something that you just basically just throw out into the unknown, into the darkness.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. There's an old saying in marketing advertising that 50% of what I spend on marketing advertising is waste. I just have no idea which 50% it is. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: Makes sense. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And so, then it tags on to, first of all, the fear of the unknown. I don't know if this is working or not. And it also tags on the being good enough. Because like, "Oh, maybe if it's not working, if the message is not received back at any point now or in a million light-years, it's because I'm not good enough." Which it's a great breeding ground for gremlins to just feed on. It's like, "Well, if you were good enough, you would get reactions. You would get –" and I'm not just talking about social media reactions. But I'm actually talking about like you'd get some human connection back. You'd get some form of messaging back in some ways. But your marketing content is crap. And therefore, that's why the silence is still around you.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, it makes sense. There's the worry that the gremlin would obviously pop up there feeling like if they can't create a connection, it's not good enough message is done. I'm making that connection that we want that you're looking for. 

You did mention interestingly that in almost the same breath you mentioned that you know we won't connect with everybody. You know that whatever we put out there isn't going to connect with everybody. And you mentioned that you have this feeling that there's some kind of pressure for perfection in marketing. I'm curious, how kind of those coexist and what perfection might look like? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say perfection looks like there's a signal that comes back. And at the same time, I know that's not about perfection. It's a fear. It's a message that it needs to be perfect. Or that if the signal doesn't come back, it's because it's not perfect. And yet, at the same time, I don't say I'm not worried at all. But I'm much less worried about perfection in a human-to-human connection. Because, well, we're humans and we're imperfect. And it's much easier to have the curiosity of, well, if my communication didn't reach, I can redo it. 

It's harder to redo in a marketing sense of view. If my communication doesn't reach anything, then, first of all, I don't know that it didn't. And so, I only assume that it didn't. And also, there's no redo. I can't tweak it. I can't figure out how to meet people where they are. Because I don't know who the people are. And I don't know where they are. 

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. Again, back to some of that feeling of unknown. Not knowing where the people are. Not knowing where it's being seen or not being seen. You mentioned that in a human connection – and I was worried about perfection. Because there's a chance to correct. And we talked a little about that. Once you have that connections, some of the hope is that it creates the connection. The interpretation is feeling like you send it out. And if there's no response, it's because it wasn't good enough to have a response. What other interpretations might there be of an unanswered? 

Cristina Amigoni: Is it in my own interpretations or other people's interpretations? Or the universe's interpretations? 

Alex Cullimore: What could be? Whichever one feels. 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I mean, what could be? And what we've actually gotten validation on is that the message does reach some people. And just because they don't respond, it doesn't mean that it wasn't meaningful. We hear it with our podcast quite a bit where people after – people that we didn't even know were listening after many, many months or years will say like, "Oh, yeah. I listen to your podcast every week." Love that episode on blah-blah-blah-blah-blah." And for us, it's like we didn't even know that podcast was being listened to. 

It's like interpretation is it's not about getting a signal back. It's just about being authentic and sending out what feels like it could possibly provide value. Or even what feels valuable to us and let it go. 

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. It's very much what like podcasting feels like. There's this what feels like very private Zoom room and then you send it out into the Spotifies and the rest of the world and you don't know. And sometimes people come back out of nowhere. And to your point there, sometimes you send out a signal and sometimes it's just light-years away. And eventually, it comes back. You didn't even know it had been out there. And that's definitely been a case we've seen a couple times. Knowing that. 

And you said something powerful there about like then it would come back to just being like authentic and putting it out there what you think is valuable. And sounds like trusting and letting go. Trusting the process a little bit. That if I send something out authentically, the right signal will bounce back. 

There's something interesting in that. First of all, that sounds like something you might have some control over is some of that authenticity. And what are ways you can bring that out when you're considering doing things like writing and putting together marketing?

Cristina Amigoni: and I think we talked about this. I don't know if it was in authenticity, or conscious choice, or they're all getting confused at this point. But in one of the disciplines. The fact that I get a very clear image in my head of what I want something to look like. And then I'm willing to do the work to get it 

there. But it's almost like the painting. 

When the painting in my head is not actually getting created in real-life, in a certain speed, an amount of effort and with certain skills, then it's easy for me to go into, "Well, then, I might as well just procrastinate and I'll do it." I have very little patience for not doing the work. Because it's not that I don't have patience for doing the work. It's just I have very little patience for not being able to create the image as it is in my head and in a timeline that's in my head, which is usually way faster than humanly possible for one person. That becomes an excuse to start and then let it go or start and not start and pausing. 

Alex Cullimore: What might happen if you create something that isn't the image you had in your head? What is the story that comes up if you're creating something and it's not where your original vision was? 

Cristina Amigoni: It's interesting. I never thought about it. I know I get really frustrated. The image in my head is usually pretty clear. The story that comes up – I guess the gremlin piece is the fears. Or back to I'm not good enough to do it all. Whatever not good enough piece. But I would say other stories that come up, it's the worst-case scenario. It's just a rabbit hole. If I'm not good enough to create the image in my head, which feels like it would create the connection that I intend, then what's the impact of that? What's on the other side of that wave? Yeah. 

And so, then we don't reach the right clients. Or clients don't understand what we do. Or what we do is not interesting. Why the hell do we have a business if nobody wants it? And yet, the image in my head is there's a lot of opportunities for doing what we do and helping people. but we don't get to do that. We are now waiting for permission from the outside to be able to do it. 

Alex Cullimore: It sounds a little bit like it's bridging a different fear. You have the idea that if it's not – what's in your head, there's the word that you can't deliver that, which then bridges into people wouldn't be interested. And those almost sound separate. Does that feel separate to you or do they feel connected? 

Cristina Amigoni: I guess it did. Because once I meandered my way around that one, I guess the very core fear there is the fact that it's – without the image created that it's in my head that would potentially open doors, we're waiting for permission to be able to do what we know we need to be doing and would be useful. And so, it's a combination of not good enough and the unknown. But it's a combination of also not wanting to have to wait for permission. It's like why can't we just be? Which goes back to authenticity in a sense. It's like my being of authentic is now dependent on somebody else's to give me permission to actually show up. 

Alex Cullimore: To go to the worst-case scenario then, that could be, let's say. Let's say you're being authentic. Nobody has responded. Not as something on the horizon. You want to be. You want to be authentic. What can you do? You only get to control your actions. Let's say we get placed in the worst-case scenario. You get placed where there isn't a response, what would you want to do? 

Cristina Amigoni: I'd crawl up in the couch and stitch it back up above my head. 

Alex Cullimore: Understandably.

Cristina Amigoni: I would say find other ways. Try something else. Spend more time and energy in the types of connections that at least make me feel like the day was worth it and then still have this very big draw of wanting all this marketing stuff out there and not seeing it, which is very frustrating. Because it's not that I don't believe it works. And it's not like that I do it only because I think it works. It's just – I don't know. I think that there's value. Hopefully, there's value and there's a strong desire. It's more about – and again, part of it is excuses. And part of it also is there's a lot of things we have to focus on. So, there is some prioritization that has to happen. And also, there is some things that could shift or some ways to look at it that could shift so that it doesn't have to only go out when it's perfect in a bow.

Alex Cullimore: And given that we have referenced and we have lived a busy few weeks here, how true is it the marketing had to be perfect for us to get busy? 

Cristina Amigoni: Not at all, apparently.

Alex Cullimore: Do you have any examples of times? What times might there have been where you created something that maybe wasn't the full image you had in your head and it resonated? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say every single time I've done anything. It's never like the image in my head. Most of the times, it's way more, especially when I collaborate with people. It's way more than I expected it to be. And yeah, I just say every single time. The image in my head, regardless of how perfect it feels, is still limited to the image in my head and to my own contribution to it. 

And so, the times where the contribution has expanded, which for me is just as a norm of and way of living. It's I would say most of the times unless I really don't have a choice and I'm somehow some sort of iceberg in South Pole and there's no human to be seen or communication ways. Which I'm not sure I would be working on social media at that point. 

Alex Cullimore: That only happened once or twice there. 

Cristina Amigoni: The collaboration always creates things that are way beyond what the images in my head could create.

Alex Cullimore: Great. The collaboration is a big one you mentioned there. And you mentioned a couple times that collaboration is a kind of a key that has helped change that and that has been able to resonate. What else might help bridge that gap if anything? Collaboration is a great one to start with. I'm just curious what else comes up if you think about what has made those things that are not what you have first envisioned? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say definitely some form of organization so that I can focus on the next step to get to the picture as opposed to wanting to be at the picture stage. And so, it's like it's just the next step. It's not the whole picture yet. And that's okay. Because you need the next steps to get to the full picture. You actually need to pick up the brush and decide which color to start with if you want the painting to be done.

Alex Cullimore: Taking steps. Having collaboration. Having plans. What ways you can find that support in this marketing journey? 

Cristina Amigoni: Besides hiring more people? We're starting already. I think starting to actually get the plan out of my head. That's always a big block is I don't know why I always feel like if it's a plan in my head then I should be able to just move into action as opposed to get the plan out of my head. Start looking at all the steps and figuring out what comes first and what's next. And what do we need here? And break it down. Really break it down. As opposed to wanting the whole thing ready.

Alex Cullimore: Now you mentioned when you have a plan. I think we – 

Cristina Amigoni: Oh, no. And just not getting stuck with where I want it to be at this point or three months ago. 

Alex Cullimore: You've said it a couple times. You said I think in the last podcast as well about that having the plan and getting that out of your head, it could be helpful. And you want to get that plan down. How can you find support and collaboration that has otherwise helped to create that plan? 

Cristina Amigoni: I would say splitting the plan up. Starting with something on paper. Here's the plan. Let's then tweak it and then splitting up the tasks. The overwhelming feeling of having to now do all the steps in the plan that it's also a big block. It's like, "Well, I don't have time to do it all. So, I'm going to do nothing." If I can't do it all, then I won't even do the first step.

Alex Cullimore: Makes sense. Feeling that immediate overwhelm of like this is going to be too much. And if one of those has that fear of the signal that may not be perfect or may not be sent out has all the other catastrophic potential consequences out of that, then each of those decisions would feel monumental. And just writing a list of those may be difficult. It makes sense that it would be difficult to write down things that would have that degree of high stakes associated to them and degree of stress.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Deadlines also help. The problem is that self-imposed deadlines are also deadlines we can move. They don't work quite well as opposed to externally imposed deadlines. At which point, it's like, "Well, I don't have time for fearlessness. I just got to do. I don't have time for perfection. It just needs to be done." 

Alex Cullimore: Makes sense. Makes sense. The impetus is not there to then drive past that imperfection or to drive into that potential imperfection and be able to kind of live with that. It's just has to be done. So, we get it done. And that makes sense. That's a common kind of pattern of work I think especially in terms of working with perfectionism and wanting to deliver. And second there is a delivery. Then that becomes the first priority. In what ways might there already be an external deadline for getting that done? 

Cristina Amigoni: We've got accountability groups. There is an external deadline and a bug in the year expectation there. The need for it to be over. I don't know. Again, it's more internal. I can't actually think of major external deadlines besides shame of not having it done, which is very internal.

Alex Cullimore: Makes sense. It's a shame of not having it done just to get it done. Wanting to get past it and move into it. Okay. That would make sense that there be some of that can be externally motivating. What's the cost of not getting that done? 

Cristina Amigoni: Just the energy drain of the shame, and the guilt and the constant just swimming in my head of like supposed to be doing this. I have this grand plan that I've had for now months where I can just sit down and work on the website as I watch Netflix with the kids over the weekend and in the evenings until I actually get to that point. 

And first of all, I'm too tired to do it most of the times. My brain just needs a break. And second of all, I actually do value being present. And I know I wouldn't be present. And so, then I struggle with finding other times to work on things like that. And so, this constant battle of like I want to be present. And at the same time, I want to get this done. And I also can't increase how many hours in the day exists.

Alex Cullimore: What can you delegate to feel like there's progress? 

Cristina Amigoni: Probably a lot of it. And there's still an element of doing the work. We're not at the point where we can delegate all of it. But there's possibilities. And the plan is at the beginning. And so, even in the plan, it's like I don't even know like which parts. All of it could be delegated, but with the caveat that we can't delegate all of it. Then planning to delegate, it still work. And I know it will pay off and it still work. That's easy to just say like, "Well, not today. I can do it at the end of the week." "Well, now I'm exhausted. Let's do it next week." "Well, now I'm in meetings every morning of the day. And I know afternoons are – except for Sundays. On Sundays, I get a surge of energy later in the afternoon. But most days, by the time I get to the answer, it's like I can't even think straight." 

Alex Cullimore: Especially these last few weeks, they've been quite busy. Quite hectic. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. The break that we were counting on hasn't quite started. 

Alex Cullimore: Who else on this call can help? 

Cristina Amigoni: I don't know. Who else on this call could help? 

Alex Cullimore: That's a great question.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. That's actually a really good idea. I think that now that we are hopefully getting a little bit of a break. As we always say, not too long. Just a tiny bit of a break I think actually – sorry. I'm thinking out loud. And I think what I need to do is stop thinking that I need to plan it by myself. I'm stuck on the plan. And I can't get the plan done. 

And once the plan is done, I know that it will become the external factor and the external deadlines. And so, it's almost as if I'm manipulating my own procrastination by knowing that if I don't plan, then I won't feel the pressure. And so, I can always be in the planning mode. And that is what needs to get out of the way. It's like the plan actually needs to be done. 

And then at that point, it's just moving into execution mode, which is much easier. And so, to unblock the planning, which clearly I am not able to do on my own. That's what I would like to do, is next week to create a meeting. Sometimes when we actually have the energy during the day. At the right times of the day to sit down and be like, "Okay, these next two hours are just to create the plan. They're not to create the content. They're just to create the plan."

Alex Cullimore: Makes sense. What times do you have available next week that would have that space open? 

Cristina Amigoni: My instinct will say the whole week. And then I look at the calendar and I'm like, "Well, actually, no." Let's look at the calendar. Oh, this is this week. I'm like, "That looks like exactly like what we did this week." I'm like, "Oh, because I was looking at the wrong one."

Alex Cullimore: Groundhog week. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Either Tuesday morning could possibly work or Tuesday afternoon before we meet Sterling.

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. Given that we keep getting other things pushed into that Tuesday slot. I'm going to put a calendar in fact right now for Tuesday morning. 

Cristina Amigoni: And then I would say Tuesday morning with possibility. Yeah, Tuesday morning, I would say. Because that doesn't look like we have that much time before our meeting at 3. 

Alex Cullimore: No problem. 10am. We're going to do this. Acknowledging for you, me and the people listening that I accept fully out of coaching on that one and just pushed a solution right through.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 10am. That's when the plan will be finalized.

Alex Cullimore: All right. How do you feel on that? Anything you want to address for this? 

Cristina Amigoni: Better. I feel much better. I mean, there'll be more procrastination or more blocks. But if we get – that first step is get the plan figured out. I think we can and should face that one together just as a general – 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, thank you.

Alex Cullimore: Sure. Let's do this.

Cristina Amigoni: Okay. I'm going to start with a different question. I would start with what opportunities have been presented to you that you passed up because of some kind of fear? 

Alex Cullimore: There definitely are some. I feel in general, if there's something that's important enough, I'm much more afraid of not doing things than of doing them. What are things though that I would – 

Cristina Amigoni: And if nothing comes to mind, we can add the pest up or procrastinate on.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I think the ones that I procrastinate on, I go back and forth on this one. One of the things that I know I've procrastinated on somewhat. Well, okay. There's one that I know that is important. There's one that I sometimes think of as like that could be nice and I'm not totally sure as I'm bought into it as part of the full vision. I'm relating both of these actually two things we were doing. One is the book. I think being able to write the book. I've made some progress. I was doing well for a while there. And then last couple weeks have been chaos and nothing has continued there. There's one that's a procrastination there. And as any coach would tell you, that's an excuse. There's an excuse that that time is not available there. 

Knowing that time is not actually an excuse there, there's definitely some procrastination on that one. The only other one that comes to mind is that we've talked about doing things like speaking events. And I think it would be fun to do some of those. But I feel less and less like that's part of the vision. I'm not as worried about – I don't feel the like I want to get to that as much as I used to. I think that was like the part of it. I think more, it's the book that is currently some of that procrastination. I think that's more important.

Cristina Amigoni: That makes sense. It makes sense to have those two things that have been procrastinated on. And recognizing that procrastination, any coach would tell you is our own choice. And so, being busy, it's not an excuse to procrastinate. Well, it gets to be an excuse to procrastinate. But it's not the reason. It's not the core reason for the procrastination. And so, if we focus on the book, what fear do you think is behind the procrastination?

Alex Cullimore: The first thing that comes to mind is the fear of like having a disorganized mind on it. And we have an outline. We have some ideas. We have some structure. And honestly, writing it is very fun. I like doing that like generation work. It feels very much like that. That kind of living in that WI space. I like doing a lot of that. 

And on separate times, when I'm in a different mindset, I also enjoy doing some of the cutting down and whittling this to make it much more efficient and make writing a lot tighter and something that is more descriptive and just more efficient for the reader. Both of those things are enjoyable. I think I have a fear of – I think I have a logical understanding that you have to get through like a shitty first draft. Any writer that's done for long enough will tell you that's important. 

Even though I know that and even when I can look back and see the times when I've enjoyed creating those, even the first draft, even knowing there's so much that's going to change in it. There's been many times that I have enjoyed that process. And I still find myself hesitating because it's not going to be perfect. Even though every part of me knows and is already like screaming in my head like, "Yeah, of course, it's not perfect. It's never going to be." 

There's never going to be a time where you just sit down – Jane Austin crank this out. And it's perfect. Basically, just put the published data, there's a stamp at the end. You're done. That has never been the process. Nor actually do I – if I think about it, want that to be the process. There's been a lot of – and Adam Grant talked about this in his most recent book, Hidden Potential. He talks about the fact that the process of writing. And that was the same thing that Seth Godin talked about. And we've seen it in a couple different areas. The process of writing is a great way of just thinking. It forces you to get clarity on your thinking. It's really fun activity for that reason. 

And yet, I still find myself occasionally blocking myself and telling myself that I have to have – create some type of perfect thing out of the gate on it. And I'm not totally sure how those coexists. Because I know – and I even emotionally know that both of those are true. 

Cristina Amigoni: Totally understandable. Definitely a drive for perfection to get what's intended to be out there. And also knowing that it's never going to be perfect. And so, there's an internal battle there going on. When you think about the perfect book or the perfect – in terms of writing the book, the paragraph, the chapter, the idea, what does perfect mean? 

Alex Cullimore: What I would like it to do is the same thing that we get to do in so many other places. I want it to be entertaining. I want people to like feel like that there's enjoyment in interacting with this. And I want it to feel informative. I want them to have some like ideas. Things they can walk away with. Things they'd want to try. 

And so, when I think about perfect, it has to be that type of engaging. And I think while the process of writing and think is very enjoyable, the framing of something like a book or anything that has to be posted publicly. For better and worse, I feel like I'm constantly thinking about the audience in their. Their interactions with it, right? Which I think there's benefits to that. Because you want to be empathetic to that point of view. And you want to think about what do they need to hear. What would they want to see? 

But I think also putting that frame on it then puts the pressure of like as if it was delivered live or something. As if I'm typing this down and it's live streaming out to some imaginary audience. Having that audience in mind is helpful to get the empathy from how this should sound and what I would want to say. And it's unhelpful. Because I'm editing myself to make sure that whatever I'm putting out there is as if it's already being listened to an audience and they need to have it clear right off the bat. I think maybe that's some of the hang-up is feeling I got that audience, that studio audience already watching while the process is going. 

Cristina Amigoni: Very good awareness.

Alex Cullimore: That's what I had and have till now. 

Cristina Amigoni: Of the studio audience. And so, you did say that the actual doing of it, the WI of the writing and getting the story out is enjoyable. How does it feel when you're in it as opposed to before it procrastinating it? 

Alex Cullimore: The way that I think I could best most relatably immediately is it's not that different from the times when we get to do – honestly, it's very, very similar. It's just a different medium when we get to facilitate. And there's something like – and that's why that live audience is both like incredibly. And you know that here's the material we want to deliver. And you know you're going to have to like bend and weave with whatever the room is going to change and how they're going to interact with it. 

But it's a lot like that. It starts to become in those enjoyable moments like that conversation you have where you're like, "Hey, here's the things that I'm talking about. Here's the things that I want to put forward as ideas." And you're kind of feeling that mental almost. I call it sparring, but not like a violent or bad way. Just in that kind of enjoyable – literally, like a spar of like practicing of just an enjoyable making each other sharper at your skills. And that back and forth of like, "Oh, it sounds like a conversation." It feels like a conversation when you get to write that way. When you get to feel like this is how I would be putting it out here. Here's what I would be hoping people are interacting with. 

And again, it ends up falling into that weird trap of because it's generating something new and because half of the enjoyment is thinking about it in interaction with how it would be interacting with other people. And then tripped up again on like, "Oh." But in focusing on that interaction, it feels like it has to be something much more clear than it really could reasonably be. 

Cristina Amigoni: I somehow sense a common thread with my own blocks on that. It sounds like a lot of what you have highlighted. And you've used the word interacting quite a bit. The both side of the sword is like you feel like you have an audience as you're writing while you don't have an audience. And what the missing pieces is the interaction with the audience while you're writing. And it sounds like you've mentioned how I'm facilitating. That's what's energizing. Is because there is an interaction with the audience as you deliver. What are some ways you could make that audience be more live or find some ways to interact in the writing process? 

Alex Cullimore: You would think it is. I appreciate you talking about that as an audience. Because I think the issue isn't that there is the audience. The issue is that the audience is the voices in my head. And there are a few gremlin voices there. A few critical voices. 

When it's live in front of like a class, even if we had somebody who was not engaged, which we've had pretty good luck of keeping people engaged even when they don't understand. Or first at first blush, disagree with what we are presenting. Manage those well and it's fun. And just like having that external audience is easy also to externalize. If somebody like really got upset with us, which hasn't happened. Knock on wood. But if somebody really was like off the rails and a very like resistant audience member, it's still easy enough to – I guess that was true even doing like stand up and stuff in New York. It was easy enough to be like, "Okay. Well, that person has a problem. That's not what is attached to that." 

I think when I really think about it that way, the issue with the audience that's generated in my head is that I'm not being selective about who's in it. That that audience is – any and every voice, everybody I think has inner critic voices. And those also have a seat there. And so, occasionally, those are the ones that start to come out. Yeah, I hadn't really parsed that one before. The audience is not selected and it's not external. There's an internal portion of the audience. 

Cristina Amigoni: Who would you want to have in the audience? How can you select out the ones that don't belong and keep the ones that would actually be helpful?

Alex Cullimore: This reminds me of an exercise that was in the Bird by Bird book, which she talks about you kind of start to isolate those critic voices and imagine them as like all the voices in your head are like mice on your desk standing and talking at you. And you start to isolate each one. That is like a critic voice. Pick it up and you put it in a jar, and you put the other ones in the jar, and you put the other one in a jar, and you put the other one in a jar and find – 

Cristina Amigoni: Beat it to one of the nine cats you have. Dinner time. 

Alex Cullimore: That's one of the writer friends said too, just like throw the jar then out the window. The idea is just being like you have the critic voices. You isolate them. 

You put them in there. You put that jar. Close that. And then set it on the shelf for like – yeah, I appreciate it. I see what you're saying. And this is not going to be necessary for right now. I think it comes down to just being more diligent about that. I didn't really have that awareness that that was part of the audience. When I think about it, I think about the people that I know would already interact with this. I feel like I know how you might interact with this. I know you might react to it. I know what thoughts you might have there. I know what I would want to put out if we were in like a leadership class. I know what I would want to give the people that we've seen there and what I would want to tell them. And how I would want to say that. And those are the audience members where it's productive. Then I'm bouncing it off of where I want it to go and who I would want it to land with. 

And I haven't been selective about that. The internal audience has been some of that. And that's when it's really like dialed in and enjoyable. And when I'm not being mindful of it, the critic audience will step up and then start to make it say. Or maybe just enough of those experiences and now it becomes harder to go walk back in and feeling like, "Well, they're probably going to be in the audience." As if I don't have a choice in that audience. I haven't made the conscious choice and I haven't recognized that there was a conscious choice to make on that. 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. It sounds like if they are in the audience, you can just pick them up. Put them in the jar. Set them aside. Get them away from your sight. 

Alex Cullimore: It's acknowledgement that there's a separation of those voices I think. That's the big thing. It's acknowledgement that that's – it all feels like an internal monologue. But it's acknowledging when that voice is actually switched to whoever's at the microphone.

Cristina Amigoni: What would help you adopt that practice next time you want to sit down and write the book? 

Alex Cullimore: Some of that image of like the mice is funny. And I look at that hilarious the idea of like the cats chasing that one away. I just have to some kind of like reminder. Either maybe it's like a different background on my computer or maybe it's like just some kind of mantra or sticky note or something. I would have to probably carry it in my laptop. Just that reminder. Because I think I have to bring that conscious awareness to it. And then it will become more of a practice of like how do I really approach that? And how do I get more efficient at that? That I think can happen over time. Not enough other mindfulness work that I think I can get to that point. Literally, this was a weird total blind spot. 

Cristina Amigoni: Right. What kind of support would help you switch that mind?

Alex Cullimore: This is what I needed. I needed to just say this out loud. I guess if I'm losing steam again, I need to get proactive about reaching out. And if you would mind occasionally checking in I'm like, "Hey, how's it going?" And just as a check so I can have to bring that conscious awareness back to this and then have to have the conversation. I'm not too worried about like how this has happened up to this point in this specific instance. Because it really has been a particularly busy month and not in the like busy excuse sense. There's literally been hours filled of just I don't feel like I've stopped moving for a month. I had like two days where I didn't. I definitely didn't have the energy for a book. 

Not too worried about those ones. But I would worry about that becoming a habit. I don't feel as much guilt over the past. But I do feel more trepidation over the future if I'm not conscious of this.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. That makes sense. What else would help you, if anything? 

Alex Cullimore: I don't know. It's just I feel much lighter just saying this out loud. Because it's getting to like face critics together. Whether we would always be discussing this at the time or not. There's something kind of valuable about having just to put some light on this. And if you're trapped alone with your critics or if you don't reach out and don't see the outside, it can feel like that for me. That can become isolating and feel like that is the voice. And that's what the whole world would be saying. 

And yet, I know from other experiences and from other relationships where I had to just like share with people who I can trust what my experience has been. And then you feel more validated in that. And you also feel like you're not alone in that. That's I think just a good reminder for myself and one that I hadn't yet put in this context. I've seen it happen with external relationship. I've seeing that and being getting better at accessing that power of talking this out with people. I need to remember that that's just as similar on the inside with those voices.

Cristina Amigoni: Excellent awareness. And definitely an energy shift.

Alex Cullimore: I enjoy that audience portion of it. I just didn't realize that sometimes that audience is shifting on me. Because it is ethereal and made up in my mind.

Cristina Amigoni: Energy suckers are like vampires. Put them out on the light. They burn away. 

Alex Cullimore: It's a great too. Just remembering like vampires in the audience. And I know vampire sign or something. 

Cristina Amigoni: Shine a light. Bring them out. Like, "Yeah, yeah. Sure. Stay in the audience. Let me open the window and get some light. See how long you last." 

Alex Cullimore: Under everybody's chair is some garlic. Whatever it is. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you find a little steak, just kind of put it in your chest. See what happens. 

Alex Cullimore: See. Twist it around. Feel it out. No. That's such a hilarious image. It really puts it into perspective. And I like that. I like the vampires. The cats chasing you. All of those are just good mental reminders and images. I mean, there's nothing more fun than just like having light at these things too. That's what we did one thing that is so much fun to bring to people, is when we can joke about our own just random monologues, trippings, whatever else. And so, that helps a lot too. I think the humor and the light on that, it's a good OxiClean or whatever for shame.

Cristina Amigoni: It is. Yes. There's a lot of monologue that we share in the ether. Yeah. Well, here's fearlessness. good luck getting out there. 

Alex Cullimore: Let's do this.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Bringing your fear into the light and letting it just disappear into ashes. Have fun.

Alex Cullimore: Enjoy.

Cristina Amigoni: And thanks for listening.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review, and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human.

[END]