Creating Trust Through Vulnerable Leadership

Cristina Amigoni: What are all the things that I complain about that my team is not doing or that I notice is counterproductive or are not effective and efficient, and then how do I show up?

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives.

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, coworkers, or even ourselves.

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni.

Alex Cullimore: This is Alex Cullimore. Let's dive in.

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Cristina, it's just you and me today.

Cristina Amigoni: It is. We have a whole list of topics. It was hard to figure out what to talk about. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes, which is a problem that we have. I mean, minus the problem portion of it, where it took us took a while to boil this down. But there's one that we kind of settled on, because it's something we've talked about a few times in, especially in the projects that we have, and just observations that we've seen in organizations. And that is the idea that leadership is a huge mirror, and you're going to have to hold a mirror up to yourself when you look at all the behaviors that you're seeing in an organization.

I don't know how better to phrase it, because it's really about this reflective quality of what behaviors we're putting out and what we're seeing.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It's the true, like lead by example, works both ways. The positive examples, and also, that's what happens. What you do is reflected in what everybody else does. So, it's very hard to – it's counterproductive to complain or point fingers that I can't believe that they're behaving this way without holding up the mirror and figuring out if we're doing the same thing and that's where the example is coming from.

Alex Cullimore: That's where we kept noticing it because it was so many times we'd hear people be like, “Oh, man, we need our people to do X.” They really don't make decisions as fast as we'd like them to or, “Oh, they keep asking for clarity,” and then we'd see these things reflected in the leaders that were saying this about their people. And you start to see that there – and then when you get to see like a whole department, and there's a team of senior leaders, you start to notice that each of the personalities of those are reflected in their individual kind of sphere of influence or their part of the org tree there. You start to see just the behaviors repeated and it's not, I don't think just like a selection bias of the habit of pick people who are exactly like them. It's just, those are the behaviors that start to get ingrained in the subcultures of each of these departments.

It's something that we've seen time and again, and I'm sure we're guilty of this as much as anybody. We look out and we see people end up perpetrating the behaviors that they are asking others to correct. And maybe we are most aware in others of the things that we are most guilty of.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. That's definitely one of those pieces that comes with the coach training, the straight at the beginning, because that was one of the hardest thing to digest, was realizing that first of all, you have to constantly look in the mirror and figure out what it is that we're doing, and the things that trigger us about others, typically are things that we do ourselves, that we may not like ourselves when we do that.

Alex Cullimore: It's so weird, because until you turn that consciousness up, until you start to realize that and you hold the mirror up to yourself and then as a leader, you have to hold to be up to yourself all the time if you want to continue to improve and make good choices, decisions. But once you hold that mirror up, it's impossible not to see that, “Oh no, these are my behaviors.” But it's amazing how long we can go with our own internal denial before we hit that point. It's so easy to see like I'm really frustrated this person doesn't do this. I can't believe this person doesn't prep an agenda for the meeting. Meanwhile, we have no agendas for our meetings or whatever it is.

We see all these frustrations. We feel the pain because subconsciously we're noticing that somewhere in our behaviors and until you really turn that light on and see that in a conscious level, it's amazing how far you could go in that denial.

Cristina Amigoni: It is, yes. It is one of those practices again. It's not a one-and-done piece which really boils down to it's really easy to turn off the light and go back into denial, and then go through the cycle again of like, “Oh, I need to hold the mirror up in this situation.” Then you turn it off and then you put it down. Then the next situation turns around and you're still wondering why it's happening. But it's really difficult to keep looking in the mirror and figuring out, what am I doing that exemplifies this behavior that now everybody else is picking up?

Alex Cullimore: I think that's one of the huge reasons that it becomes such an interactive problem and such a common problem is that we can go back into it. It's not like it's a one time that you're out and you're done for that reason. Not only is it, I think, difficult because it's just difficult to look in and have that self-conscious moment and have to look in and be like, “Oh, right, these are the thing, I'm not super happy that I'm doing.” Or, “That, oh, I should be doing differently.”

It's not easy to do that just because that requires extra work on our part. We have to then admit we're not perfect. All the regular resistance that we might have to doing that internal work. And then in the position of a leadership position, you've ended up with maybe some impetus to continue to look at other people and you're continually thinking like, “Oh, I need to change the dynamics of the team.” So, you're asked to continue to look at those and think about those and try and correct those. What we most notice might be ourselves, but we're spending so much time focusing on the impact that we're seeing it based on what our teams are doing and we're told to look externally, which makes it even harder.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Well, and we tend to, especially the higher up in leadership positions and the higher the hierarchy. So, in organizations that have a lot of hierarchy, there's more and more distance between looking in the mirror and what the culture is and what behaviors are happening. There's that tendency to just really be like me and them. They do this. They are not communicating. They don't ask questions. They don't take initiatives. But it needs to be a little bit more reverse, like, what's our role in that? Like what are we doing in this, either through our behaviors or through our language and leadership? What are we doing to encourage or discourage the behavior that we don't see providing results?

Alex Cullimore: I think that actually gives us the biggest leg up then, because then we have all of the power to make the change we want to see, as long as we are willing to and able to stare into that mirror and be like, “Ah, yes, here's where I'm exemplifying that, and here's where people end up following it and here's what I need to change.” But the second we can start to do that for ourselves because of exactly what you're saying in the beginning is lead by example in both directions. That means we do have the power to change those behaviors and we can do it by changing ourselves, which might seem like the hardest thing to do sometimes. But it is something that is actually under our control and that can feel so much relief if you've been looking at this as like, “I don't know how to change other people's behavior.” Like, “Well, maybe it isn't about changing them, it's about changing yourself and reflecting that and continuing to trust that that reflection will naturally continue to happen.”

I don't think it's a bad thing that the reflections do happen. I think people just get into grooves. It's a bit more comfortable working these ways. We get into patterns. And it's not a bad thing. There's efficiencies to be gained there as long as we're aware of the parts that might have some friction. The parts that squeak a little bit. The ones that we need to address and that gives us the power to actually do that as long as we're willing to do that for ourselves.

Cristina Amigoni: It is, yes. A great example is vulnerability. A big piece when we talk about allowing the space for people to be vulnerable. The first step is for us to be vulnerable. If we show our own vulnerability, we inspire others to do the same and that works for everything else. If we communicate, then we inspire others to communicate. If we resolve conflict, we inspire others to resolve conflict. If we are a tight team and a cohesive team on how that works together with every step of the way, then our own teams may be more inspired to do that. If we're the first to create silos and to toss the ball over the wall, well, our teams are going to do exactly the same. So, it's a little bit difficult to then complain that our teams are not connected when well, we're not connected.

Alex Cullimore: That's a great example. I love the vulnerability one because that one's so common. People don't like to admit that they're wrong. I mean, that's just a painful thing to do sometimes is to feel like you're wrong. But if you can admit your vulnerability, admit that you have these things that you're working on or this that you don't do as well, but you were working on something else. Those are the things that allow other people to feel that way instead of everybody kind of having this internal pressure to feel perfect ends up causing its own problems because we're trying to hide our imperfections rather than trying to just address them or be open with them and that's a perfect example of a place where a leader can change the behaviors by laying down their own guard.

You let that down. People see that it's okay to let that down. And there's many studies of people gaining respect for their leaders when they can admit they're wrong. Instead of the feeling of like, “Oh, god, they're going to know I didn't do this right. Now, I have to like have egg on my face or whatever.” Whatever we feel is going to be the consequence of admitting that we're wrong, but that's time and time again, not how people actually react when we have a chance to breathe and say, “Oh, we don't have to be perfect. Well, thank goodness, because I haven't felt perfect this whole time.”

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. That's a great example. The perfection piece. When it comes to holding up the mirror in leadership, that's why it's so difficult to do. It's because we have to first admit to ourselves that we're not perfect, were not maybe as – we'd now have to battle with imposter syndrome, which we may feel already. But when we're holding up the mirror, then the flaws are less likely to be hidden. Then we start doubting ourselves a lot, but it's crucial.

I mean, that's why we talk about self-leadership as the first step to becoming a successful leader and that's also a difficult concept when we narrow the definition of leadership or we think of the narrow definition of leadership of having a team that reports to you. That's not leadership. That's an organizational chart.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. That's just names on a page.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Names on a page. That doesn't mean anything. We've worked in situations where people reported officially to individuals who were not successful leaders and so that's not who the people went to. That's not who the teams listened to. That's not what inspired the teams to keep working in the tough days because leadership is a behavior. It's an action. It's not a title. It's not a position in your org chart. The first people that we have to be responsible for leading is ourselves. If we can't lead ourselves, there's no hope that we can lead others.

Alex Cullimore: Yes, that's a great way of thinking about it, because leadership is a behavior. It is about influencing other people. I mean, even if you think about it in what people like to distill it down to, on a more simplistic level, like, “Oh, I'm the one in charge of running these people, or getting these tasks done, or moving this project forward.” That's great, but how are you going to do that if you don't have the influence over the people? You can try and do that through fear, you can try and do that through other mandates, but the actual reflection is always going to come out in the long term.

So, who do you become so that you are the most influential? That's a perfect example of people just gravitate to the people they know they can trust and they can get the answers they need from and they can get the help they need from those people. So, if you can become that person, suddenly you can maximize your own influence, even if it feels like triggering that imposter syndrome by like, “Oh, if I tell people that I was wrong on this, if I'm not the perfect person here or whatever it is, I feel like I'm handing them evidence that my imposter syndrome is correct, which is scary. It's really hard to do that.” One of the many things that is just difficult about being a leader and it is still the way to be able to influence people. Knowing that mirror is a powerful two-way tool.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It definitely is. So, how do we hold up the mirror?

Alex Cullimore: Great question. I think there's a lot to be said for self-reflection for one. There's a lot of things. Things like coaching, therapy. Getting to understanding your triggers, your pieces so you can be ahead of your biases a little bit. We're not going to be able to defeat them all the time. We're not going to be able to stop our gremlins and our worries from coming out to the forefront, but it doesn't mean we can't address those and then also show that it's okay to have that.

So, one is really getting in touch with yourself. So again, self-leadership. How much do you know yourself? How much can you be aware of that? I think is a huge starting point in being better at that. And secondarily, documenting the behavior you're seeing on your teams that you're concerned about and starting to think about what behaviors am I executing that are either exactly like this or might be encouraging this? Why are people getting into that? If you can develop a lot of trust and rapport with your team, you might be able to ask that directly. If not, you're going to have to do your best inference and continue to try and find the proxy measurements that tell you what might be causing that.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, those are all great examples. The self-reflection is, I would say, easier to do once you have done it with some support and you have gone through the – it's a muscle. So, once you have the muscle of having it done it with some support, whether it's a coach, a mentor, something that provides you that guidance, and then you can get into the muscle of, I know how to do this, because I've done it with my coach over and over and over. It is a little bit harder. I would say, to just start like just looking in the mirror if you don't really know what to look for or how to start. Like you said, like a big piece of that, the self-reflection that doesn't necessarily require somebody else being involved is looking at like, what are all the things that I complain about that my team is not doing, or that I is counterproductive, or are not effective and efficient. And then how do I show up in those types of instances? How do I show up when they're spinning because there's lack of clarity?

Am I spinning when I have lack of clarity? If I provide a clarity, what does clarity mean? That's when we have to get into a little bit more of defining what we mean as opposed to just saying words and expecting everybody to understand what's in our head and our definition of that word and our expectation is.

Alex Cullimore: Looking back what your team's doing and what words you're using reminds me of like, one of the easy examples when people are like, I need my team to be making more decisions. I need them to be like making decisions independently. Often, it feels like an easy path forward to be like, so I'm going to stop making the decisions because I need them to step up and do that. Sometimes they need the push. Sometimes they just need the space to go and decide those. But if you're not making a decision and hoping that they will do it without using those words, without telling them that you're counting on them to make this decision without establishing that this is a time of transition where, yes, maybe I've made decisions in the past that we've been listening to, but I need this to be more of a spread team effort. It's time for you guys to like step up and here's what I want to do to support you. But I want you to make these decisions.

If you're not being very clear about that, you can end up exuding exactly the wrong behavior because now you're not making decisions and then getting more frustrated that they're not making decisions and they don't know that they're supposed to be stepping up, that they're just watching you not make a decision and feeling like that must be how we do this. Now we're off-laundering.

Cristina Amigoni: There's a lot of looking at what is it that again, what is it that we notice? What is it that we would like to see done differently? And then what's our role in that? First, do we do it ourselves? Second, if we don't, which maybe it's a nuance of not doing it ourselves. What is our role then in changing that, in providing the inspiration for that behavior to change? I don't remember. It was a podcast that I heard months ago where they, it actually said like, if you want others to change their behavior, have to change your behavior first. Once they see you change your behavior, they'll be inspired to actually stop and get past the autopilot and respond differently. But we can't just go around saying like we just need people to change behavior.

Alex Cullimore: And to help make that easier, I think it does help to be explicit about what you're changing. So many people are like we do like coaching day at the leadership training and people learn and learn some coaching skills. And they're like, “My God,” I mean, people are going to immediately point out that I'm by behaving differently. I'm like, “Yes, that might be the case.” And it's really worth the time then to just be explicit about, “Hey, I learned about this. I'm going to try something new. I want to try doing this.” Not only is that then to show vulnerability and growth on your part, it also then sets expectations for, “Hey, we're trying something new here. Here's what I'm looking to do. Help set that intent. Helps get that clarity.”

You can start to use that mirror explicitly instead of just saying, “I'm going to have to change my behaviors and, man, I really hope people notice and start to change.” They will. You can speed that along by being very explicit, being very deliberate, and making sure you're checking in with people about, “Hey, how does this feel? How does this change work for you?”

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great example. It's incredible, especially in change. One of the things to look at is if the change is not happening, as we would like it to happen, then the first step is to look at leadership. What is leadership doing or not doing? Because everybody is lost in the fog, so they're looking for guidance. If the guidance is not there, they're going to continue spinning around looking for a light somewhere.

Alex Cullimore: We've seen a few of those instances where everybody's hoping that somebody has run a path and everybody's just kind of calling out to each other in the fog without taking the steps forward.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. So, in some better cases, they find each other in the fog, so they're not spinning alone, but they're still in the fog. The guidance still needs to come from somewhere beyond, here's a very vague, unexplained and undefined direction, which is not a direction. It's just a fancy goal.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. I think that's the perfect way of looking at it. This is a huge tool for us to be able to change those around us and influence those around us. It's really great to get that awareness. I like your idea of having somebody to help you understand what it looks like to have that awareness and to be able to have somebody you trust so they can reflect those behaviors back to you so you can understand what you're looking for. It does become easier over time. The second you can start to see that, then you start to see how you influence other people when you change and that is a huge force multiplier to use a buzzword on being able to change and grow our influence.

Cristina Amigoni: Clearly, it's not just in the workplace. It's around us. It's interesting because my husband went to volunteer at our kid's school yesterday. He reflected on there was this staff member, teacher was, I guess, the message or the intention was to get the kids to be a little quieter in the hallway and not scream and screech. To get them to do that, she was screaming and screeching louder than anybody else. So, it was like, how is this effective? You're just asking them to do what you're doing yourself in like a hundred times worse. That's not the example you want, right?

Alex Cullimore: That's the perfect example of the beer going the other way. Here's the behavior I want from you and I will do the opposite until you do it.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, exactly. I'm like, what did you just teach them? That in order to get heard, they have to scream and screech, and making sure that they're so loud that the entire hallway turns around.

Alex Cullimore: Now, your lesson is loudest voice wins.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. The lesson is not be quieter in the hallway.

Alex Cullimore: Or it's be quiet when that person's around.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, that's the other lesson that's being learned right now is like keep your mouth shut when certain people are around, which that works wonderfully in workplaces too.

Alex Cullimore: Always. Every single time.

Cristina Amigoni: No problems come up from that.

Alex Cullimore: So, use the mirror, help yourself, help others. This is a great tool in your tool building. The more you practice it, the easier it gets. The easier it gets to start to understand, “Oh, right. I need to – I'm going to need to show up differently and we'll see how this changes everybody else.”

Cristina Amigoni: If you want some help at the beginning, you can even ask people you trust that you work with and just tell them, “Okay, I want to change this behavior. I want to get an outside perspective. How I'm perceived when I show up, can you provide that feedback after this meeting or this type of interaction so that I can understand how I'm being perceived? If you don't have people that you trust that you can ask, then hold up the mirror.

Alex Cullimore: You might be in a different problem altogether.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. That is a different problem, but there's another mirror moment.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Now, what are you doing that creates, sorry, that feels like that much distrust.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Good luck.

Alex Cullimore: Good luck.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always Uncover the Human.

[END]