Exploring The Authenticity Upgrade Part 4 of 4

Alex Cullimore: “The things that need to be done are going to be increasingly human, and you're going to have to do all the critical thinking of making sure what bots create is what you want it to be." 

[INTRODUCTION]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. 

Cristina Amigoni & Alex Cullimore: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself, not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills, no makeup, just being.”

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Another special episode where we're finishing out our book series. We're launching our book, The Authenticity Upgrade: Rebooting Leadership for Real Humans. So, here we are at the end of the road. We're going to talk a little bit about group dynamics and AI. So, take it away, Aaron, who has joined us again. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, I made the mistake to tell Alex to do this fast. So, now nobody can actually listen to what he's saying because he's speaking way too fast. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah.

Alex Cullimore: We're going to go auctioneer speed for this. 

Cristina Amigoni: This is where AI is going to help in fixing the recording. 

Alex Cullimore: Hey, as we say in all of our listening activities, you can hear 400 words a minute, so they should all be fine with this. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. And I'll make sure my questions are much slower.

Cristina Amigoni: It'll be fun for AI to fix this recording. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah, really? All right. Well, my first question is, once we move from one-on-one to groups, everything multiplies. What's the biggest trap leaders fall into when it comes to group dynamics? 

Alex Cullimore: I'm gonna go with, I don't know, top three. I would have a hard time prioritizing some of these. One thing, if we think about what we were talking about in the last episode, we were talking about deep listening and being able to connect one-on-one. And one thing that's easy to miss when you start to get to groups is when you're deep listening, you might be listening to the voices that are most active. And so it's easy to miss the ones that are not, or to have our own assumptions lead the way in what we think is happening with a group. We might feel like one person, maybe we feel a little bit more frustrated by. And we can project that feeling onto other people. We can assume other people would be frustrated by them, or we can just end up a little bit taken down the path of, "Oh, these are my own assumptions. And I don't need to work as much with this person because I find it more frustrating." 

And leading with all those assumptions and not getting curious about the group and the group dynamics, and not being curious about what's happening when you start to see problems. Starting to see it through your own lens rather than doing the investigation. Those are all fairly significant hurdles when you step into working with a group. 

Cristina Amigoni: Do you say all three or just one very elaborate one? 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah, I know. 

Alex Cullimore: I didn't delineate for anybody. It's up to anybody's option which of those three are. There's maybe missing the quiet voices, not investigating root problems, and leading with our own assumptions. 

Cristina Amigoni: Oh, my god, there's three. Okay. 

Alex Cullimore: I'm going to be my own chatbot and summarize my thoughts. 

Cristina Amigoni: So, I'm going to add to that, and I don't know where they fit on the list, but I'm just adding. I may dethrone one of them or not. The big difference is expecting the same behavior from everybody in the group. Treating everybody in the room the same way, which does relate to something that you said, Alex. I don't know which one of the three, but maybe it relates to all three. 

Alex Cullimore: That's a much better summation of all of them, honestly. Let's go with that. Aaron, cut my entire answer.

Cristina Amigoni: AI, cut the entire answer. 

Alex Cullimore: AI, cut this entire answer. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. But it's that. Especially if we have somebody that we have a good relationship with that we know within the group, and then kind of applying how we show up with that person to everybody else. And when they may not respond the same way or may not work in a group setting as it does in a one-on-one setting, not adjusting and not taking a step back and figuring out like, "Oh, maybe there's something I need to do differently," as opposed to, "They all have to change and meet me where I am." That's one of the biggest things. 

The other piece in a group setting, which is similar, is expecting everybody to show up as I would want to show up, or as I would want to show up, and this other person that I have a relationship with, that I have a connection with, shows up. And I would say there's a 100% chance that's not going to happen. Everybody's going to show up differently. And so how is their contribution different and still valuable? Because it's not going to be the same as everybody else. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. No, that's a really excellent one because there's so much projection that we tend to do, especially when we don't know somebody yet or we haven't gotten to know them. We make a lot of assumptions based on either what we've heard about them or just other experiences we've had in similar situations. And if we don't give that space and time to figure that person out, understand them better, and value what they're bringing, it can be a lot harder to get to who they are and whether they are able to be part of the team and really integrate well. 

And that's something that's easy to slip up on, hard to remind yourself to engage in, especially if you have a team that's going well, and then you suddenly have a new person on the team. That shifts the dynamic, and it can feel like, "Oh, man. Are we going to go back to like ice breakers and work?" Maybe you should. There's a whole brand-new person. This is what you have to do to go reincorporate that. And not seeing those dynamics, not allowing for the fact that everybody's unique and the fact that uniqueness also changes. We are all growing and changing a little bit all the time. You can start to understand people, and they will continue to move a little bit on you. Not maliciously, just how people work. 

Cristina Amigoni: I don't grow and I don't change. So, I don't know what you're talking about. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, it's much easier with Cristina because she is a just the same person day after day. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: I didn't listen yesterday. I'm not going to listen today. 

Alex Cullimore: I like how we make points, and then we throw them right out.

Aaron Wilson: Well, speaking of cord and integrating well, you distinguish in the book between being nice and being kind. Can you unpack the difference? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, it's another one of Alex's things, so he's gonna answer that. He is the one with the acronyms. I just follow along and hope to not stumble. 

Alex Cullimore: I don't think nice versus kind is my idea. I just put some words under those. But the idea is that there's two different types that we tend to engage with, and we've talked a little bit about this. In the last episode, we talked about avoiding hard conversations, and that's something that feels nice. We can keep things on the surface pleasant, and that feels nice. We are being nice. We are being polite. We're not pushing on other people. We're not telling them they're wrong. We're not disagreeing. We will let some disagreements slide. Or they'll say something and we're like, "Ah, it might not be right, but I'm not going to bring it up right now. I don't have confrontation." 

Nice tends to be all those behaviors that feel good on the surface, but don't necessarily resolve what is going on or address what's going on. Whereas kind is much more digging into, "Okay, let's what is really happening here and what do we need to resolve so we can all move forward even more productively?" And treating conflict as more of an opportunity for growth rather than something to be avoided. And so when we get in that kind of space and kind in the acronym sense stands for knowing what is happening. So knowing the facts. Just trying to eliminate any of the feeling about it and say being able to identify what you feel like is going on. 

Impact. What is the impact of the things that you've noticed? Needs. What would you need to have happen so that this is addressed? And then desired outcome. Where is this better for everybody? So kind is diving into and having those hard conversations rather than avoiding them. 

And so one of the ways that we have described this, and I borrowed this from a friend of mine, who told me that there's a difference between calm keeping and peacekeeping. And calm keeping is that symptomatic niceness. Make sure you address the symptoms, keep everything level. Peacekeeping sometimes resolves conflict, hard conversations, compromise, whatever it takes to actually move forward together as one and have an actual peace, not just a calm. 

And so niceness are those behaviors that we can engage in that feel easy. Whereas kindness is really having the discussions that need to happen and giving us a framework for how to do it. Is that meandering enough or is that slightly addressed nice and kind? 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: I got nothing to add. 

Alex Cullimore: Comprehensive. 

Aaron Wilson: Right. You touched on the culmination of all of that, which is psychological safety. Creating that environment for people to feel like they could show up as their most authentic self. And really, why is this such a cornerstone? Because this shows up again and again in your writing. Why is this such a cornerstone of culture? 

Cristina Amigoni: Magic beans. No. 

Alex Cullimore: I don't think anything more needs to be said. 

Cristina Amigoni: Psychological safety. I mean, besides all the studies and all the data and all the stuff out there, what it really comes down to is people speaking up, people feeling like they can actually ask questions and talk to each other, picking up the phone without the consequences of guilt, shame, somebody else's script in their head, being yelled at, being made stupid, any of that. 

And when it comes down to the foundation of the success of an organization, again, we go back to some of the stuff that we talked about in this episode or the one before where we can't expect innovation. And we can't expect for people to feel empowered. And we can't expect collaboration if there is no psychological safety. If everybody is so worried about protecting themselves because the consequence could be really bad for their livelihood if they get fired, or promotion, they don't get promotions, or even just the daily interaction of being yelled at, being undervalued, then everybody's going to bottle up. 

And going back to the great white sharks, unless we expect individual great white sharks in the oceans to somehow come together, which they're not most of the times, and create something that can be accomplished as a group, that's not going to happen. Organizations are groups of people for a reason. If they needed groups of people working together, then we would just have eight billion LLC's. And even then, it wouldn't work because you still have to collaborate with the other businesses. It really comes down to, “Can I ask a question? Can I speak up? Can I call somebody? Can I find empathy and humanity and authenticity and respect if I come out of my protective armor?” And that's the psychological safety. 

Alex Cullimore: The only thing I would add to it is actually tying back to your original answer on one of the things that leaders miss, which is missing the uniqueness of people. If you don't have the psychological safety, you're not going to get the full person. You're not going to get what they can offer. They won't be willing to speak up against the cultural norms. They won't be able to challenge the status quo when they have an idea that might actually be incredibly necessary. 

There was one time when we were running a team agreement activity with a team of VPs, and they were coming to terms with like, "Hey, just putting down the things that they were going to agree to do as a team." And we had written one – I don't remember what the sentence was. One thing down about here is how we're going to agree. And as part of the process, everybody has to agree for it to go on the sheet. 

So we said, "Okay, does everybody agree to this? Does this sound right? Can you all agree that this is how you would like to go going forward?" And almost every hand went up except one. When that person can actually say that, it ended up being a great conversation that changed the bullet point that allowed it and opened up like, "No, I don't think I can agree to that because we don't act this way. We don't have that kind of trust as a team. So, we can't actually say that we would do this." And that opened up a whole different conversation that was incredibly necessary.

But if people don't allow for that space for people to be contrarian occasionally or feel like it's contrarian or feel like it's going against the grain or say just something that only they can bring to the table, you end up missing out on all of the uniqueness you have in front of you. And there's just no way – as smart as some people are, there's just no way that you know every solution. And if you don't allow for the other people to help, you're going to end up tripping on all of your blind spots. Especially if you're trying to lead by just being the dictator who makes all the choices, you're going to find all of your own landmines. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. And you mentioned the practical tools of collaboration agreement or some sort of agreement that is needed to establish sort of the working principles and the foundation with which group together. And so practical tools like that, or recap and confirm in meetings. Why do these simple things make such a big difference? 

Cristina Amigoni: They reduce assumptions. It's one thing to say, "You're a group of people in a room. Collaborate." Sometimes that works. Most of the times it doesn't work. It doesn't even work in sports. There's no sports team out there that actually you can just put on the field and say, "Go play and win the championship." You have to bring the group together and figure out like, "Okay, what are the roles? What are the responsibility? Who's doing what?" What happens in between the role and the responsibilities? I am about to pass you the ball, how do you know the ball is coming to you on a soccer field? That's what's needed because we don't read minds. And even if we learn how to deeply listen, we all walk around the world with our own perspective of it. We all walk in also with our own assumptions of what we may understand should be happening. 

And those collaboration agreements, as well as the other tools, take the assumptions, the possibility for assumptions to be out and for things to actually be out in the open, and say, "Hey, if this is our agreement that this is how we're going to show up, can everybody nod and say yes? And if not, why not?" Does everybody understand this the same way? Any word that we throw out there, my understanding of that word is going to be vastly different from somebody else's understanding of that word. 

And so, how do we meet in the middle? And the only way is to actually communicate to meet in the middle and figure out what tool do we need. The interesting part about that is that it's a muscle. Once you start doing it because it's a new process and it feels uncomfortable, you then automatically want to do it the next time there's a new team member or you're part of a new team because you've seen what happens when there's clarity from the beginning. 

One of the other big words that we hear a lot in the workplace is everybody wants clarity. It's like, "Well, there is no clarity if you don't actually communicate and sit down and figure out are we on the same page? And do we understand what page means by saying the same page?" 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. So how do you personally handle situations where trust is low or silos are entrenched? 

Alex Cullimore: I think that the most important reminder for yourself and for others is patience. That you're not going to build trust over the course of an hour meeting. You're not going to build it over the course of a week. You're not going to break down silos in a day. You're not going to just have a new process where you say these two teams now work together for a day during this portion of the cycle. 

Until you've put the understanding in there and that people are really bought in and there's the consistency of showing up, it's going to be hard to actually deliver the trust and actually bring down the walls between silos. And I think that it's not uncommon for these things to form, but again goes back to giving some of that space and curiosity so that people can feel a little bit more heard, not just dig in their heels on what they have felt frustrated by up to this point and what they feel like they have to continue to reiterate that they're frustrated by or try and like win some politics game of whose department gets the budget or whatever piece. And once you can leave that space for them and not feel like they have to constantly be on the defensive, you could slowly see these things melt. 

And it's the same thing that we were talking about earlier. When do you know that this is not thawing? And what do you do then? And it's a similar, I think, answer of it is, are there actual signs of movement? You have to give yourself enough patience. And it's totally understandable to want it to move faster, but that doesn't mean it will, and that doesn't mean that it's not moving. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Time and repetition. It's not overnight, especially when it's been broke – well, when it's been broken, I still don't have the solution for how do we build trust. So, we'll put that on the shelf. But when it's new and you're building it, it's not a mandate. It's not something you can say just trust us. Not going to happen. It's really that creating reliability and consistency. So, trust gets built. 

I think Brené Brown talks about it. I like that image of it's the marble jar. It's one marble at a time. And so you start with an empty jar or with a quarter-full jar. And so every consistent action, every consistent reaction, response, and it then creates a marble that you can put in the jar. And if you don't, if the consistency is lacking, then you either don't put any marbles in the jars, so you take them out. You can't even start taking them out because I'm like, "Oh, okay. This person cared to check in with me 10 times. But the 11th time, and now they're gone." 

And so you just kind of put everything on pause. But it's really that thinking this is not a one-time thing. I can't ask my team to come to me with questions once. I'm going to have to offer that I'm here for help and questions every single day for weeks, months. And then maybe at some point one of them will reach out without being asked first or without me reaching out first. And so it's that patience, consistency, and reliability. It's not like, "Oh, if things are going well, my door is open. If things are going badly, I yell at people. That's not how you're going to build the trust. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. And trust being a foundational pillar of a healthy culture. Culture often really does get reduced to ping-pong tables and pizza parties. What does a human-first culture actually look like? 

Alex Cullimore: I think about the intention behind the pizza parties and the ping-pong tables, right? One of the things that tends to be missing and that theoretically could be supported by something like a ping-pong table or a pizza party is that you're trying to get some of those social bonds together because people can work better together when they actually collaborate or when they have a bit of time to have fun and have a break and compete and learn something about each other over a ping-pong table or over a piece of pizza instead of the context of, "I need something from you because this is what we're doing for work right now." 

And I think that that intention gets missed. There's just the assumption that like, "Oh, I'll throw some pizzas down and all of this will just happen." Or it just feels disingenuous. It feels like it's like, "Oh, we're going to throw some ping-pong table here. Are you happy now? Are you guys ready? Is this culture good now?" And it just misses the point that people are listening for what they're actually receiving, not what is suggested, and not what the lip service is. And it comes down to that actual intention of are you creating the spaces for some those connections? Because a human-first culture is going to be a place where people – you understand that the entire purpose is that, yes, you're here together to accomplish something. There's some work being done, some project, some company, some whatever you're working on together, and you're all humans bringing that together. 

This is not some perfect delivery of skills. This is not some just turning of gears. People aren't just plugging in. Everybody is bringing something to this, and being able to understand and appreciate that. And bring out what people can bring to that allows you to both further that mission and have it feel like you're not just running obligation down and just finishing the day just because you feel like you have to have a job or have to do this. And those are those are important things that do have to be done. But you don't have to take the humanity out of it just because it's got some piece of transaction to it. There can be actual human connection to it so that you can live and feel a little bit more satisfied in doing it. 

And just enjoy the people you're working with. Get to know them better. Those are things that are important not just for the company to survive. But then that's what you need when you go to another job. And when you know who you want to work with in the future, when you know who you can trust, and you know – those are the things that only come out if you're allowing humans to be part of the equation and considering them first instead of considering them as cogs in the machine. 

Cristina Amigoni: I've got nothing else to add. Until you tell me what kind of pizza, I can't tell you what the culture is going to be. 

Alex Cullimore: It's a Chicago-style pizza. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's not pizza. That's casserole. No, that pizza's definitely not going to make your culture a good culture. 

Alex Cullimore: Sorry to the Illinois contingent we just lost on our listenership.

Aaron Wilson: All right, a couple more questions and then you'll have answered all of my curiosities tied to this particular part of the book. If a listener could only take one thing from your book into their team tomorrow, what would you want it to be? 

Alex Cullimore: It depends on how abstract you want to go. If there's only one thing you're going to take, curiosity and empathy are going to be cornerstones of being able to run a good team. Stay curious about what people are capable of, what they are currently experiencing, and step out of that judgment zone of like, "Oh, they're not showing up the same way they were." Like, "Oh, yeah, maybe there's something going on in their life." 

Getting into that curiosity space and getting that empathy is great for both your interactions with your team as well as understanding and plugging into things like working with customers to getting that empathetic space, to understanding what they're really going towards. Those two things, if you're living at a really high level, would be most important to me. I think the thing that would be discreet, go apply something, lava is the easiest thing I can point to, to like this is something you can bring to your team tomorrow and change some dynamics. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say empathy or some of the practical pieces. Know your values. There's a big portion of it that talks about knowing your values. Know your values. Know when you're in alignment with them. Know when you're not. And use your own mirror to look at how you show up, and then see what happens to the rest of the world around you once you have that mirror. And you're controlling what you can't control, which is how you show up. 

Aaron Wilson: How does AI play into this? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, it's going to definitely clean up all of this video and make it perfect. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. 

Alex Cullimore: That's how AI plays into this. 

Cristina Amigoni: Into this. Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: What we're seeing right now, and this is late 2025, things will probably be different in 6 months. But what we are seeing is a lot of adoption of AI. And there's a lot of changing. And there's a lot of hopes for what AI can do. There's a lot of missed expectations of what we thought it was going to do, and it maybe it's not able to deliver yet. But one interesting piece is that it is this seemingly ubiquitous technology for everybody. Everybody's trying to use it. And there's this hype around it that would suggest that anybody who's not adopting AI and jumping in and having all the AI practices is in danger of becoming the next codec. And they're going to miss this technological revolution. They're all going to become defunct and disappear and blow away in the wind. And that nobody wants that to where things go. 

And so there's this hyper-accelerated change that has been hitting almost every industry. And we believe, because it's AI and because it's bots, that there's this nonhuman component to it. But we are asking humans to engage with this. And there is no change that is not human. It is just another technology that we are working to adopt. And maybe it will do some of the work that we have done. But what we're seeing and what our current prediction is, is that it will just increase the need for human interaction points, human collaboration. 

If you can have a bot run off and finish a deck for you, then your team that was there to figure out what should go in the deck can start reviewing the deck in the same meeting instead of everybody breaking, somebody generates it, and everybody comes back. The things that need to be done are going to be increasingly human. And you're going to have to do all the critical thinking of making sure what bots create is what you want it to be. And that you are collaborating on top of that. It's not going to do the replacing of humans so much as highlighting all the places that we need to be more human. 

Aaron Wilson: And make that a clip. That was good. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's really going to highlight all those human things, all those soft skills are now becoming these skills that, as humans, are still needed and are going to be even more needed. The communication, the collaboration, the critical thinking, the empathy, the listening, the acknowledging, the validating, the asking open-ended questions. All of those pieces become even more important because now the focus is going to be more on interaction with each other and with AI. 

Even in prompting, it's still a conversation with the bot. You still have to know how to translate what's in your head into a question so that you can get the answer that you had intended to get in your head. All those things are now highlighted. The big piece is the underestimating the fact that this is a tool. It is a technology. It is a tool. It is a resource. And it's not just adopt AI, and somehow we're in a new reality, and all those business outcomes we had are going to be met. Where's the human component? What does this mean for humans? 

Because just like any change, as Alex said, this is a behavior and mindset change. And so what are the behaviors that are going to help adopt the new technology and the new processes? What is the mindset that needs to be understood? What are the uniqueness? Each team, each person, each connection between teams and people are going to be now the focus on how do we connect and collaborate? If before it was about me working on a PowerPoint deck and you reviewing it and bringing back feedback, if that's not happening now, and we're supposed to all talk together while we review this, that collaboration changes. And so from a company, from an organizational point of view, think about how you want your people to connect and collaborate and behave, and then figure out what does the tool provide? 

Alex Cullimore: That's the other huge portion when you talk about bringing the team together to do it, address the fear. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: There are companies that jumped ahead and did things like lay off a bunch of people because they were positive AI was just going to replace something. I mean the idea out there and that some companies are doing this a little bit more sly and pretending like they're not trying to replace people. And others are more like, "Hey, we're going to try and replace people." And first of all, we have not actually seen that the technology can do that for one. It is not done nearly well enough to actually accomplish that goal. 

But secondarily, address the fear in the room that you are working with a technology that, whether it's true or not, has the reputation for it could replace humans, it could replace jobs, it could have massive job loss. And maybe that will happen. Maybe there will be pieces of that. And there's certainly people who are working on that. Don't pretend to your team that you're not working with a technology that does this. Address the fact that there are going to be fears. Be honest about what the intentions are of like – that's why I think it's important to reiterate that I think this is actually a huge accelerator for what people can do. And I think there's going to be even more need for humans because I think there's a lot more on the other side of AI. Not just, "Oh, we're going to replace the work that is being done."

And if you can get into that mindset, or if that is your experience as well with the tool, then that's the intention you can bring to your team. Instead of trying to sneakily be like, "I mean, please work on this and please find ways to replace yourself." Because that's not, A, particularly inspiring. But it's also very underhanded. And it's going to just create that mistrust and continue to dig that fear deeper. 

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: And AI is not going to cut this part of the video because we're going to make sure it's still in it. 

Alex Cullimore: AI is like, "Let's not do that. Don't tell them." 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. Well, hope you're enjoying the book. If you haven't bought it yet, go buy it. Send us comments. Send us feedback. 

Alex Cullimore: Leave us a review. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, I'm sure we'll do more podcasts about the book or themes from the book. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Send us questions, send us comments. We really hope you enjoy. 

Aaron Wilson: Thank you both. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And thank you, Aaron. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Thank you, Aaron. 

Aaron Wilson: Yeah.

Alex Cullimore: Thanks so much for listening to Uncover the Human. We are Siamo. That is the company that sponsors and created this podcast. And if you'd like to reach out to us further, or reach out with any questions, or to be on the podcast, please reach out to podcast@wearesiamo.com. Or you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is We Are Siamo. Or you can go to wearesiamo.com and check us out there. Or I suppose, Cristina, you and I have LinkedIn as well. People could find us anywhere. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, we do have LinkedIn. Yes. Yeah. And we'd like to thank Abbay Robinson for producing our podcast and making sure that they actually reach all of you. And Rachel Sherwood for the wonderful score. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you guys so much for listening. Tune in next time. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you.

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