Get Curious! Busting Biases and Assumptions with Amanda Gulino

EPISODE 67

[INTRODUCTION]

Cristina Amigoni: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Alex Cullimore: Whether that's with our families, co-workers or even ourselves. 

Cristina Amigoni: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Alex Cullimore: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Cristina Amigoni: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

Alex Cullimore: Let’s dive in. 

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have the integrity in yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina.

Cristina Amigoni: Hello, hello. It's Monday again. It's always Monday. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. We do a lot of these on Monday. We do.

Cristina Amigoni: We do. I know. And this one with Amanda, whose company is A Better Monday. So, there you go.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. It was meant to be. And it was a better Monday. That was a blast of the conversation. Amanda is super interesting.

Cristina Amigoni: It definitely was a better Monday to spend some time with her.

Alex Cullimore: We talked about – I don't know. Just about everything. We talked about burnout. And we talked about assumptions, biases, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And just, I don't know, wonderful thoughts. And a super curious person. I always loved getting to talk to people who just love learning, trying, and doing all kinds of new things. And Amanda, it comes through very clearly, is very like that.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. She very much is. I remember meeting her in our coach training. And it was always, "Wow! There's so much I can learn from her. This is an awesome person."

Alex Cullimore: Amanda is great. We hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did. There's not much more to say. Just enjoy Amanda Gulino. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Enjoy, enjoy.

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Well, welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. We are joined by our guest today, Amanda Gulino. Thank you so much for joining us, Amanda.

Amanda Gulino: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Cristina Amigoni: Welcome.

Alex Cullimore: We're very excited to have you. So, let's just dive in. Could you give us a little idea of what you are and what you do? Who you are? Everything. 

Amanda Gulino: Ooh, I love that question. So, I’ll start with who I am. I love breaking up intros into who I am and then what I do, because they are connected, but not the same thing. So, who I am? I am a daughter. I’m a partner. I’m a dog parent of three senior dogs. I am a jogger/runner. I do anything I can to be outside in Colorado where I live. And absolutely love it. 

I love to take naps. I love reading eight books at the same time. And it's – Truly, eight books at the same time. Sometimes it goes on for years, too. And it's very important to me to have – Relationships are everything in my life, friendships, work relationships. I mean, you name it. Having equity in those relationships and then a genuine kind of care and concern. That's everything to me. 

So much of my life is centered around people, love, and all of those wonderful things. And then work-wise, what I do is very important to me. It's a huge part of my identity. And part of the reason I share who I am and what I do separately is to remember it's not all of me, right? It's something I do. It's not who I am. And I guess the best way to share that, I’ll share a little story of how I got to where I am today because it's really a story about being really human, and flopping around, and getting curious. 

Cristina Amigoni: I relate to that at all. 

Amanda Gulino: Not at all. 

Cristina Amigoni: No.

 Alex Cullimore: Everything's gone according to plan, you're talking about. 

Cristina Amigoni: Especially the flopping around and – 

Amanda Gulino: You know what? I love to tell people that part of the story, is I’m a facilitator on this really incredible course. And there are all these wonderful speakers that come in glowing names. And my jaw is open listening to these folks talk. And I had someone say to me, "I just want to hear how they messed up." "I just want to hear all the mistakes they made and their darker underbelly of the story." So that's kind of what I like to tell people about, is the great things, but also the hard parts, too. And so, I think that's kind of the story of how I got to where I am today. So, I’ve had a small business for about five or six years now. And it came about because I started out as a recruiter in my career. And I absolutely loved it. I loved the process of meeting these brilliant people. I mean, every conversation was a connection. And then connecting these brilliant people with opportunities inside of organizations. Fell in love. Did that for a few years. 

And then I noticed this trend that kept happening, these wonderful people would leave, right? And I’m, "What's going on here?" Right. So first, I got really mad. Not that the person but just "What's happening here? I’m not happy about this." And then I was, "Let me try something different." 

And so, then I got curious and put on my deliberative hat and I was, "Let me go figure out what's going on." And it seemed to boil down to a couple of things, right? I’m either not seen or valued by my leadership or the culture here. Or this isn't what I want for myself and my career. It really boiled down to those two things. 

And so, I realized that while hiring is so important, it doesn't address the underlying stuff about the culture where someone feels like I can't be here, right? Because they have to cut off a part of their identity to fit in there. Or I’m doing this because I wanted to make money, and actually, I realize I want something else. I’d like to have less money and more balance. 

So, then I just realized, those were the questions. Those were the big problems that I wanted to work on for the rest of my life without a clear roadmap of what exactly that would look like. So I started getting curious about myself, because I realized I was in some roles that I was, "Ooh! This isn't exactly what I want to do with my career." And this isn't exactly the place where I feel I can lead and show up fully. So, what does that mean for me? And that ultimately led me to found my business. 

So, I feel in business, for me, it's less about business. It's more about purpose, right? I happen to have a business. But, for me, what I’m doing is around my life's purpose, these two parallel tracks are happening. One, I’m constantly in this phase of getting curious about myself. How much do I love what I’m doing? How much does it give me energy? How much does it drain it? And then the same things I’m doing with clients, right? Via coaching and facilitation. So, I love that because I get to be – Cristina, we always talked about this in our coaching program, a teacher and a student constantly. It's the best part of my job. So that's a lot about me and what I do. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's awesome. I love all of that. And it's, yes, very relatable to realize, "Oh, get the job. Think it's a dream job. See all the shining things." And then you realize they're all pieces of coal, and falling stars, and meteorites, and they don't stand up. It's almost like you open the door to "Wait, this is not where I actually applied to work." And then feeling that. 

And yes, could most of us tolerate staying in a job where we don't show up as our full selves? Most likely. Do most of us tolerate it? Yes, I would say most of us tolerate that. Lately, the last few years have also made me realize time is finite. We don't get the time back. So why waste it tolerating? 

Amanda Gulino: You're so right.

Alex Cullimore: I think that's a huge driver of the great resignation. I think that's a huge portion of everybody's, "Yeah, I’ve tolerated this for a long time. But why did I do that? Do I have to keep doing that?" 

Amanda Gulino: Totally. I remember in the very early days of the pandemic, I had one of these moments. My partner and I just moved to Denver. We bought a house. And I was preparing for what I thought was going to be this great year. I had all these trips planned for work. And then suddenly we get to – What was it? Mid-March? Around this time two years – Whoa! Anniversary time. Two years ago. And I don't know if y'all had this – I remember thinking I’m done. No one's going to pay for coaching right now. No one. 

And there were about two weeks, maybe a week or two where I had a real lull. I never even added up how many contracts I had canceled because I didn't want to focus on what was lost. I was trying to stay really focused on what was going to be forward. And I remember all of a sudden all these coaching inquiries came in. And I was, "What in the world was going on here? I couldn't believe it." 

And I think what happened when I – And I can reflect on this for myself, for my clients, is suddenly we're home, or we're not home, and we're facing unprecedented ambiguity and danger every day in our in-person roles. And we could no longer tolerate it.  That we didn't have the normal distractions of our workout class or whatever it was. We didn't have that anymore. So, we had to face the lack of alignment with our values and our actions all of a sudden. And that's what I think brought people to coaching, into therapy, and to all sorts of other methods of support. So, I was shocked and very grateful. But very shocked at the same time. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's so funny, because I had that moment pre-pandemic, right around when we were done with the coach training program. Probably a little bit more before that. But around mid-2019 is when I had that disturbing moment. One of many in the last three or four years. But that was clear "This is it. I am no longer going down this path anymore." And when the pandemic happened and I saw everybody else going, I’m "Finally, the world is catching up with me on the misalignment of values and action." 

Amanda Gulino: Yes, yes. Probably because we could not look at that. I mean, in coach training, it's essentially a part-time job to look at your life and your choices. I mean, it's impossible to hide. You're in that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 90 hours of somebody asking you those questions will sink in. Plus, it was at least 90 in person. Plus, all the remote ones. It's "Okay, fine. I'll look at my life if you insist. Stop asking me." 

Alex Cullimore: It's something we've talked about a lot, the values and actions alignment. And that's one thing I really liked about your story of how you got to be here and who you are as well as what you do, is that the idea, you mentioned it. And Cristina and I have talked about this in terms of technology transformations. We talk about technology as just a tool. It's not like a solution in itself. But I really love that you suggested that was your entire idea behind the business. You're going to create basically a business to support your values rather than – Which I think a lot of people go somewhat the other way. And I say a lot of people in a very projecting kind of way. A lot of people go the other way saying, "What are my values and how do I find something that best gets close maybe to that?" And I’ll just deal with the parts that aren't quite there. But I love the idea of building this more as "What if I just built a business to support my values?" 

Amanda Gulino: Well, I’ve never thought about it quite that way. But that's exactly it, right? It's exactly it. With small business owners all the time, the conversation always, from my view, goes to growth. Or let's say 98% of the time is growth, growth. When are you going to grow? When are you going to grow? Meaning, increase revenue, build a staff, more offerings, whatever. And I’m "Now, what I’m after?" And that tends to shock a lot of people. They're "Well, why don't you want more?" I’m "No. I want less. I want less, but better is what I want, right?" And that goes back to my values. 

One of the things I struggle with as a person is have you seen those pie charts on LinkedIn? It's like what I thought would make me productive is work. And then what it actually is all these other things. I’ve been that work person for so long. And the charge for me now – And I’ve been working 15 years or so post when I stopped my education. And the charge for me now is less work. And what else is it that I want personally? And there has to be space and energy for that. Less so time, more so energy for that. So, growth does not allow that for me right now. Growth means sleepless nights and all sorts of other things. And that's just not where I’m at right now. And I think that's okay.

Cristina Amigoni: Totally okay.

Alex Cullimore: Actually, I just read a book called Essentialism by Greg McKeown. It was recommended actually by Sam Moore, a friend of ours who's also on the podcast a while back. But would totally recommend that. One of the key themes is to do less better because you only have a finite amount of energy every day. Might as well put it towards the things that will eventually – It'll become growth in itself. That thing will grow. But it will be like you'll be much better at that. You can really focus. So, if you want some confirmation bias, as well as just some great thought out this, is scientifically why this works, I totally recommend that book.

Amanda Gulino: I’ll take it. Give you a little confirmation bias on a Monday. Yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Your ninth book you can start.

Amanda Gulino: Yes. I'll add it to my audiobook list. Yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: I totally relate to that. I have about five or six audiobooks that I’ve started and not finished. And I kind of rotate. And then I’m mixing podcast episodes. So, every day, it's "Okay, which conversation am I going back to that I just forgot because I haven't listened to in the last two weeks?" 

Amanda Gulino: Never so deeply related to someone on your listening – 

Cristina Amigoni: Essentialism is one of those that I haven't finished yet. 

Amanda Gulino: Well, it's on there. It'll come. 

Cristina Amigoni: It'll come back. 

Amanda Gulino: Yeah. We need it. I feel like it's – I tend to find the chapters when I need them. And so, I sort of love the dance around of where – It all goes back to energy. What am I drawn to today? Is it a podcast or is it a book? Is it a quote? Is it just music? Is it silence, right? Is it my sound machine? And let that sort of guiding me. It is amazing. I tend to hear a pod, or whatever, just when I need it. So, I kind of like this seeing what happens every day. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I love that. Yeah, I’ve actually noticed for me that when I do go from – Like, listen to something from the beginning to the end, it's because I’m trying to fill a hole. So, I’ve been so drained by whatever situation, typically work, or could be personal, by the situation that I need major self-care. And the self-care is to be so into a book. Like I think I listened to Brene Brown's – All of Brene Brown's books in a row without getting any other books at the same time, and Simon Sinek as well, at a time when it was such a low moment for me on figuring out what I was doing, my identity. How do I feel about life? That I needed somebody else to fill that hole. I needed somebody else to show me the way from the beginning to the end. And then when I’m out of the lows, when I’m in either normal highs, that's when I jumped around. And I’m like, "Oh, what mood am I in right now?" 

Amanda Gulino: I love that. That is so interesting. Such an awareness of your habits and why they exist, or maybe it's not even habits. But your defaults and why they exist. I’m about to pay attention to that now. Now I’m going to get curious about that. 

Alex Cullimore: You talked a little bit about wanting to do the things you want to do with your business. More specifically, what are you focusing on? What's the new curiosity?

Amanda Gulino: Let's see. There's that my head's going a million directions. I have always loved – One of my top strengths, every time I’ve taken StrengthsFinder, is learner, which effectively means I like to – For me, it translates into the variety. And I’m not an expert in anything. But I like to know enough to be dangerous, right? Which is why podcasts are perfect for me. Enough to metabolize this quote or this idea. And then I’ll go down a little bit of a rabbit hole, but I always come back. 

I’m a great generalist is how I think of myself. And how that translates into work is variety. So, I offer one-on-one team coaching facilitation. And then I’ll also realize during our coaching program – We took this at the Energy Leadership Assessment, index assessment, and one of the things I learned there was, although I am an absolute introvert, I recharge my batteries alone. Usually listening to music or a podcast and going outside. That is my – plugging my phone into a wall for me. That's what that's like. I love working with people, too. 

And I realized I was about a year or two in, or maybe a little bit more into business, and I realized I was doing way too much alone. And so, I have a couple of clients where I’m just a long-term consultant on their team and have been for a year or two. So, I get the best of all worlds. I go to team meetings, right? I’m sort of a part of the team. I lead some projects for them. But then I also have my own work that I do as well. And then I have a couple of consultants that I bring in, right? 

So, I think what I’m getting curious about is that the work is shifting and evolving, right? Like someone asked me recently, "Do you think you're going to be running A Better Monday when you're 60 or 65?" I was like, "Probably not. I’m not even 35. I’ll be 35 in a couple of months. I can't imagine not evolving as a person. And then, therefore, evolving what I do constantly." 

My business has even evolved since I started it. I started it, and I was recruiting. I was in an HR consultant capacity. And some of this learning was really crystallized in those early days. And I was like, "No, this isn't for me anymore." So that took me into career coaching, which then took me into the coaching program, which then took me into now where I focus is on leadership and culture. It's been a constant journey. And that's just over five or six years. 

So how lost – I forgot the original question. But I always say to clients, as situations change, we change. It's an invitation for us. That's me. I hope to continue to evolve. And I have grand plans, right? I’d love to go into real estate one day. My original major in college was interior design. And I would love to play there at some point. I don't know if these things are going to happen more as hobbies or what. But I have a lot of interests that I want to explore in this kind of life that I’ve got. So, I hope things keep evolving for me.

Alex Cullimore: I love that answer.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, me too. I can completely relate to that, too.

Alex Cullimore: We didn't do that with our business. We did one thing. We've done it forever. We haven't done the same thing for more than three months, I think. 

Cristina Amigoni: Five minutes? 

Amanda Gulino: You're like evolving with what you learn.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, it is. 

Alex Cullimore: Oh yeah, it's super fun. That's the only way I think I could do it.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's learning what gives us energy and what drains our energy. And so, then we kind of veer away from the draining and we go towards the learning and increasing the energy. And a lot of big pieces for both of us is that constant change of let's try something new. What's the next idea? And "Oh we've noticed this." And what can we do about it?" 

Amanda Gulino: It's almost once you have that noticing hat on, and – So there are just endless opportunities that start to pop up. You know the saying, "Oh, that might be a dead end." I don't believe in dead ends. I think that's a complete false narrative that we have. They're cul-de-sacs, right?

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Cul-de-sacs. 

Amanda Gulino: Cul-de-sacs. They take us back. We may not be meant to stay there forever. We may sit for a while. But it's not a dead end. It's part of the journey, right? It's what I kind of hear as you're talking about the evolution of your work. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. We learn in the cul-de-sac we reflect. We get time sometimes to pause and then decide, "Yep, okay. Take those tools, and let's go to the next street." 

Alex Cullimore: Definitely. I think I also came out as a learner on the StrengthsFinder, and that's exactly how I would describe it. It's going for a variety. It's going through that learning. And so I’m curious, you do a lot of very one-on-one coaching, group coaching. I would consider us all the lucky ones to be in this level of curiosity. I’m not sure everybody always takes the same energy out of curiosity. So, what's it like working with people and helping them get to their own sources of energy? 

Amanda Gulino: It's ups and downs, for sure, right? And I think the ups are these moments of – This aha insight, big picture perspective moments that clients have. That for me is so motivating. That gives me four months of energy when those things happen because they're huge. They are transformations in people's lives. Most of which I don't see, because I meet with someone an hour every two weeks or so, right? Or minutes every two weeks. Those moments are just – They're a huge part of why I do this work, right? Because when I think about knowing ourselves and showing up as fully human, for me, it's when we are kind of outward actions match who we see ourselves as, right? Who we are authentically, whether or not people see it, right? Because we have our own inner world. absolutely. 

And what I’ve noticed is those aha moments, those insight moments, get us closer to who we are and how that's expressed. And so, I absolutely – I’m not going say I live for that. But it's hugely motivating to be a part of that and incredibly meaningful and purposeful for me. I hope even more so for clients. 

I think that the hard part – And I don't know if y'all have experienced this. Coaching before the pandemic was often, I have to have a hard conversation with my boss, "Can we talk about that?" right? It's very like we're learning skills, right? We're practicing. We're role-playing. And now, these past couple of years, the California Surgeon General calls this the greatest collective trauma of our lifetimes, the pandemic. And then if you layer on top some of the social justice uprisings that have happened that have needed to happen, right? And needed to happen, meaning the collective awakening, right? Compounded collective trauma. 

And so, where that has led conversations just to deep, sometimes really painful places I find, where instead of moving pebbles, we're trying to push boulders right now. And that's just because things feel harder. And they are hard. They don't even feel harder. It's not just that. They are harder, right? 

And so, I think that the hard part has been how do I continuously show up in the way I want to show up as a coach and as a facilitator knowing that I’m also living in this incredibly challenging time? So, it's taught me a lot about burnout. It's taught me – I mean and taught me as if it's over. It's teaching me a lot about burnout, self-care, and balance. It doesn't even fully encapsulated. But it is somewhat of a balance. These micro choices that I make. Do I stay on the laptop for 30 more minutes? Or do I have to press pause and go outside, right? These little choices. So, the hard part is that. How to show up in the moment in the way that I can and want to and then meeting the needs, the complex needs of these humans in front of me that I deeply care about as clients? 

Alex Cullimore: Well, it has to be a huge part of that. It's hard to just – Yeah, it's hard to show up. Like you're saying, the coach you want to be all the time especially when it's not like you're not going through the pandemic. You might be coaching people, but you're also going through it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. 

Amanda Gulino: Right? Every time I go see my therapist, I’m like, "How does this person do this all day?" And I see her 9 am on a Monday. I just – Constantly, I'm like, 'How in the world do you do this?" right? Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: It's pretty incredible. So, you did mention burnout. And you mentioned going through that journey for yourself. How are you dealing with burnout?

Amanda Gulino: Yeah. Well, it's so interesting, because I’ve been talking about burnout for years. And I'm kind of even saying this now, I'm like, "Constantly learning." But I don't think I realized that I had ever experienced burnout until a couple of months ago. It did not enter my consciousness. And I had really considered, "Have I been burned out? Have I not?" I mean, there was one point where when I was trying to launch my business and I was still working full-time. Had a team. Pretty high-pressure job in the people and culture space. I was working from 5a.m to 8:30 a.m. Then driving to work. Working all day. I made sure I got 30 minutes of exercise and not a minute more. And then I was back on the laptop until 9:00 or 9:30. And then I would crash every night. And that happened for about a year and a half. It's hard to even think about going back to that now. 

But even with that, I just never connected, "Hey, I might have been burnt out." Just never entered my consciousness. And then this winter, around mid-December, I have somehow avoided getting COVID for almost two years. Got COVID. Luckily, I didn't get very, very sick. But I did get very tired, right? I remember being just really tired. Needing a nap every day and couldn't leave. To be responsible, it felt like we need to be home. I’m going to be home for the full 10 days. And that's what we're going to do. 

And I had this moment. I was sitting on the sofa for, I don't know, sixth day in a row and I was thinking, "Oh, this is what it means to rest," right? Because of my normal pattern, I’ll sleep. And I love to sleep. I definitely get my seven, eight hours of sleep every night for the most part. But I get to the weekend, and I’ll sit for 30 minutes and I’m up and moving, doing whatever. I mean, who knows? I’m not even sure what I do, right? Clean the dishes. Do this. Whatever it is. I’m just keeping busy. And then all of a sudden it was, "No, you can't do that. Sit." Right? And I just remember this moment of, "Wow! You have needed this for a long time, Amanda." 

And I’ve often on talked about more realistic work hours. And then I had fits and starts. I’d say, "I’m going to do it," and then I fall back into my habits. And that had been going on for years. And I finally realized I can't, nor do I want to do that anymore. I needed that moment to have that realization. 

And so January was really rough, right? Because I had made decisions, work decisions for myself, way back in 2021 for where I am right now. And it was rough because I knew I was entering a phase of finally – I was finally motivated to make the change, but I had no idea how. And I knew it was going to call a lot of my identity to the carpet, right? I was going to have to learn something new. I was going to unlearn a lot. And that is very painful. So there were a lot of tears, a lot of moment-by-moment decisions. How do I do this? 

And I was actually reflecting back a couple of days ago. I’ve had a couple of late nights here and there where I’m like, "Okay, I’m done. I have to step away from this." But by and large, it's amazing what can happen in three months, right? It is. And so I’m definitely overall sleeping better. Better exercise. I’m learning how to travel without having to plan it a year in advance. How do I go to the mountains from Thursday to Sunday? Is there a mix, right? Can I do a little work in the car? I’m just trying to figure out the dance of life and work because I don't want to be in that place again. And I actually want to keep exploring where this new path can take me for the rest of my life. 

So, I don't want to be – It's not in my vision for myself to look back and what I remember is work, and what I remember is missed opportunities for relationships and connection. And that's unfortunately a lot of the memories I’ve had in my career thus far. So, I am cautiously optimistic to see where this takes me. But I’m actually really grateful for those weeks at home. It sounds counterintuitive. But I really am.

Alex Cullimore: Oh, yeah. There's a lot of talk about burnout and how it can be about like emotional exhaustion. It can also just be about feeling empty in relationships. How would you define it for yourself? And how do you help think about explaining it to other people?

Amanda Gulino: Yeah. I read this article recently. It was about the different types of rest. It was on Elephant Journal. And I never really – I think it's seven or eight different types. Don't quote me on that. But more than I was ever aware of. And there's mental, emotional, physical and then a bunch of others.

For me, it was kind of waking up in the morning and having to take a deep breath to find the capacity for my day mentally and emotionally. If that makes sense. And then the feeling of guilt. I’m not showing up in the other places that I want to. But I either have committed to something. So, I feel like I can't. Or I just want to nap because I’m so tired. I don't have the energy for it. So, I’d say if I had to put it in just a couple of words, it was mental and emotional exhaustion. 

Cristina Amigoni: I can see that, how there are different levels of rest and different causes of burnout at the same time. So how do you – Because you work with a lot of people, individually, teams, organizations, cultures, how do you see burnout play in, well, today's reality of pandemic, post-pandemic, almost World War III, great resignation, whatever is going on at the moment that's a new headline for history books?

Amanda Gulino: It's a massive gray rain cloud is how I depict it. Or a lot of fog. I find that burning out, at least for me – And I think this has been largely true for clients because it's such a stressful time. And when we're tired, we're more susceptible to all sorts of emotions. And for me, when I’m mentally fatigued, I make decisions. And they're usually working things. I’m like, "Oh, okay, I’ll just say yes to that because it's in the future." And I’m like, "No. I didn't think about it." And it's because I didn't have the capacity to. And now I’m continuing this cycle, right? Because I didn't think about it.

And so, I think it's this fog. There's a heaviness. There's a denseness. And then the fog for me is about the visibility. I used to live in the Bay Area. And driving in fog, you can see barely in front of you. You've got to go super slow. It's very draining to drive in fog. It's not like driving on a clear day. So, it exhausts even further, right? So, then we get this perpetuating cycle. That's what I would – If I had to encapsulate it in a feeling, that would be it. And maybe in wet clothes, because you've gotten rained on. That would be the only act. That's burnout for me. 

Cristina Amigoni: In the winter, with no coat.

Amanda Gulino: Mm-hmm. Potentially. Yeah. I think there are different levels, too, right? I mean, burnout – If you've been in an extended burnout, absolutely. I think it's a much more painful experience because it's been so long. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I think your description, Cristina. They're sampling different music versus finishing things completely. That's something I kind of think relates to burnout, too. You're not curious. You're not kind of bouncing between different thoughts. You have one train that you're trying to get down and maybe not even sure which train you're on. But that, to me, would feel burned out as well. And that visibility part comes in huge, is it how do you pick choices that you're not even really looking up? You can't even really look around. 

Amanda Gulino: That's exactly it. Autopilot. It's, it's just whatever energy you have, that's what goes into it. That's such a great way to put it. I’m going to remember that. 

Cristina Amigoni: So how are some ways that you're preventing burnout for yourself? 

Amanda Gulino: I have a very. But I have kind of a way that my mornings go and then a way that my evenings go. And so, the morning is I wake up with at least 90 minutes before I start work to, A, just turn my brain on, right? To work. I mean, to just start actively thinking. A little time with my pets. A little time with my partner. Some coffee. We might go on a walk right now that it's starting – You know, get light outside sooner. We'll probably start doing that. And then I have the Peloton App. So, I do a short meditation most mornings. That's been really helpful. 

So instead of starting at like a four out of ten, I started a two out of ten, right? I’m just kind of calmed before I even begin, which has been very helpful. And then I do some little exercises in the morning, like a gratitude basket where I write something, I’m grateful for. I write out my to-do list for the day. Because I find, if I can face it, I’m usually like, "Oh, that's not so bad." But if I’m constantly trying to remember what I have to do, that drains me more. 

And then a new little ad I’ve gotten, movement for me is medicine. Like being able – It's a part of my self-care routine. And I hope it always will be. And so, I got one of those little desk treadmills for under the desk. And so, I can get my – Even when I’m feeling like I am stuck at the laptop, and I definitely have those days where I feel stuck at the laptop, and I can't get up. I still get to move. What that has taught me is if I can bring some newness or some joy, something different into my task, I get so much more enjoyment out of it. And I think my work is better, quite honestly. Like it's more creative because I’m moving. 

So, I’m trying to think about – This goes all the way back to when I worked in a restaurant in high school and in college. They were trying to teach us how to consolidate our steps. So instead of running one errand and coming back and then doing another, can you do kind of two or three things in one lap? And that has stuck with me over the years. But less about in terms of productivity. That was very much about productivity and getting as much done as possible. This for me is about how – Is there a way to make the little things enjoyable? What are the ways we can bring more joy into the little moments of the day? And for me, that little desk treadmill is probably the best 300 bucks I’ve spent in a while. So that's one other way. 

Exercise in the evening. And I sleep. I do not – You probably don't want to know me if I’m not sleeping, right? So, I absolutely go to sleep pretty early, probably like 9:00, 9:30, 10:00, and then up pretty early in the mornings. I like a moment to settle going to the day. 

Alex Cullimore: That finding joy is such a huge portion of it. And I like the description of the tiny joys, too. I started doing that. After a while, I didn't want to do grocery shopping. So, everyone saw you going, and you're like, "Yeah, I’m going to get myself a kombucha or something." Something like you would even get usually, but you're like, "You know what? I went all the way to the grocery store. I mean, why not?" So, you end up with these little tiny things that help with that. And I'd love to hear kind of from both of you guys. What are different ways you think about instilling joy into both works, life, little things, and big things? What are the ways you do it? 

Alex Cullimore: Instilling joy. Definitely outside, outdoor time, even if it's 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Doing some movement. I can definitely relate to the movement piece. That's the joy. Inside, if it's too cold, or the weather is bad, or I have to stay home to watch the kids because there's nobody else to do it. Then I also have the desk treadmill. So, I’ll find joy by saying like, "Oh, let me see if I can you know walk five miles today while I’m doing my work. And that surprisingly gives me some joy. 

But also, just pausing and doing the moments of this is a great moment for me to pause and color with my kids, or draw something, or play with a cat, something like that that it's not planned and it could be seen as disrupting the flow or disrupting not the flow as much as the pressure of being a business owner. And like you should never stop. You should never rest. You got to keep going all the time. Finding those moments, I was like, "You know what? Not saving lives. So, I think it'll be okay if the next 20 minutes are dedicated to something else."

Amanda Gulino: What I’m experimenting with right now, it's a bit more nebulous than tactical. But there is this concept of being present. And there's this great Eckhart Tolle quote about – I’m looking at my wall because I think I have it up there. But like what happens when we're in the past? Like really thinking about the past? And what happens to us emotionally and physically when we're thinking about the future? 

And both of those take us out of the present moment, which is really when I think about it, the only thing I have control over is what I do right now. And I definitely am someone who – I’m not so much a past person. But I’m constantly trying to be ahead. And why? So, I’m really trying to examine why is that? And what happens for me when I’m in the moment that I'm in right now? 

And so, what I’m experimenting with is when I start to feel tired, or I have a lot of energy, or like whatever it is, and I notice that I’m starting to play around with, "Okay, what do I need right now?" right? And I can't always give myself that thing that I need at the moment. But I might be able to give it to myself in 20 minutes. And so, I’m trying to be present with myself. I’m even starting new practices with clients. I’m not an auditory learner. I find it very hard to retain things in an auditory capacity. Or I have traditionally. But I started playing around with not taking notes when I’m with clients. And I notice this ability, I’m so much more in the conversation with them. And I’m noticing the conversations going – They're transcending to a different level than they ever have before. So, I’m playing around with what, in this present moment, can I be or do that is kind of an energy-giving to myself, to others, whatever that may be. It's a bit more nebulous. 

And that's coming up in coaching conversations, too. When I’m noticing when leaders start thinking about how can I be present? They're tapping into, I mean, really probably who they are authentically and what they really think and not what they're conditioned to do. It's fascinating. 

Alex Cullimore: That present moment idea is really interesting, too. I find that very refreshing too. You can make a choice about the present moment. You can do something that's in there. It reminds you that you're not living in the past or the future. When you have like a lot of big plans or goals, it's very slow to move towards them. And it's easy to finally be like, "I don't know if that's ever going to happen. Even if I –" It doesn't matter if I do this for 20 minutes or don't." Yeah. Or to the other extreme, "Well, I better keep going for 20 minutes because, because that's far away. I don't want to get there." But what happens if you do take that positive, "You know what? I’m not going to have an opportunity to go stop and color in 20 minutes. But I can do it right now. And I happen to have the opportunity to do so." 

And the amount of mental refresher of having given yourself permission is incredible. Just the choice of saying, "Yeah, there's something happening in the present moment. I’m going to alter this rigid daily schedule I put up for myself." And that's going to be okay getting comfortable with that. 

Amanda Gulino: That's the work right there. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. That is the work. What about you, Alex? 

Alex Cullimore: Let's see. There are many things, I think. I’ve also gotten way more into movement in the last year. I wasn't great about keeping fairly steady with working out until about maybe a year ago. I got especially into it in the last three months. Because after you develop enough kind of a rolling stone there, it's a lot easier to keep going. And that is just really mentally refreshing. And I get to talk to my laptop for hours on end just doing this work, that work, whatever is coming up. And just taking even the 20-minute break doing a cycling class or going for a walk. I think that is super helpful, not only because I think it's helpful to kind of get your body moving and get the blood flowing. But for the same reason if there was an active choice made. And it's a reminder immediately to yourself and your subconscious that you can make choices even when it doesn't feel like when you – Kind of there's a lot of resistance to that, or I really like to stick to my schedule. You can make a choice that's different. And once you realize that enough time is over and it starts to become a little bit more of a default pattern of thinking, it's a lot easier to be like, "Yeah, okay. I’m getting tired. I’m stressed out for this, or whatever. But I know that there's probably something I can do. I just slow down enough to figure out what that is." 

Cristina Amigoni: So, one of the things we talked about before the podcast was this intersection that you're seeing that we are also seeing between burnout and the great resignation. So, tell us more about that. 

Amanda Gulino: Yeah. I’m endlessly fascinated by how things that we're seeing or bubbling up in the human experience intersect because they always do. It's just a matter of how right? And so, I think the great resignation is a combination of a lot of things, right? Like, it's not a simplest – There's not a simplistic reason as to why the great resignation exists. As humans are complex, and so are our decisions, and so is society.

Cristina Amigoni: It's not just people don't want to work.

Amanda Gulino: No. Actually, when I hear that, I’m like, "Okay, let's unpack that." And I know we're going into a two-hour conversation. But when that comes up, like I have this immediate rage that I feel because it's – I'm like, "What do you mean? And what makes you think you know that? This is my roll tape in my head. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I know. I want to crawl out on my own skin. So yes, I totally relate to that. 

Amanda Gulino: Yes. I’ve been in more than one of those. And I’m like, "I’m going to send you a bill for this time because. Not really. But that's part of what I think. So, no. It is not that human beings don't want to work at all, right? This is where it comes back to identity for me. And every person has visible and invisible identities. And they all are intersecting all the time. And you get a different group of people together. You change the environment. Like, suddenly, the dynamics around our identity where power is situated, all of that change. You change one factor, right? 

And so the big factor we're talking about here with the great resignation is how does that overlap with the pandemic, right? And so, then we can start to pull the layers and look at, "Well, who was most impacted by the pandemic? What were the conditions around that right?" 

And we can start to see that our experiences have not been equal in this pandemic. And there's all sorts of data to show that, that we can go into another time. The way that I think burnout intersects with the pandemic is how heavy has this time been. How much loss has a person experienced? Where is that loss come from, right? What are the different pressures this person might have been experiencing for all these different reasons, right? And that overlaps with identity, and power, and privilege. 

And so that to me is where it exists. How heavy? How hard? How challenging has this time been? Why? How much agency does the person have over some of the things that they've experienced? And then that then ties into stress. And I still have to keep showing up to this in-person job. I have no idea if this thing is going to kill me or not, or my family, right? And so, we start to get compounded stress, which over time, if we're existing in that, there are all sorts of impacts on our health, our mental health, our physical health, emotional health, etc. 

So, in some cases – And so that's a big picture. I’m going to get off my soapbox now. When I really think about like individual clients, what it comes down to is the shaking of the value – Like, down to the values. That's a big thing that's come up. Like, I no longer can face that the place that I’m working is in direct conflict with my values. I just can't do it anymore, right? 

And so, it's a shakedown of values. It's how heavy and how hard is this time been. And then sometimes we're backed into a corner, and we got to make a choice, right? I mean, I think about that data. Was it December 2021? Either several hundred thousand or a million women left the workforce. And that's not because a million women didn't want to work. That's not what happened, right? 

So, let's go understand what happened. I think it's incredibly complex. And I think burnout is a real reason people have to make changes or choose to make changes when they can. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. If a million women didn't want to work, they would walk out of their houses and go to the beach, because all the work is in the house. Work sometimes it's vacation. 

Amanda Gulino: My good friend said – She's been home with two kids. She goes, "I would give anything to be on a plane for six hours. Anything." right? That's not what's going on. People want to work. They want a livelihood. They want to show up. I think some of that's hardwired in us. But what's preventing that? That's the question. What's blocking that? That's what we need to go get curious about. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, that rage. I feel a similar rage. But people just don't want to work. That's such a disingenuous way to approach everybody. Like, everybody likes to contribute to the groups that they are socially part of. There's maybe – I mean, I can name very few people who could even name somebody in their wealth of people they've known that are actually really trying to drain something or really actively trying to not work. I don't think I could name anybody personally. 

In my own circle, I’ve heard maybe anecdotal stories. But I think that's where most people get this idea that there's something out there that people are not – They don't want to work. Has it ever been true? And have you actually seen that in the workplace? And you asked anybody? Plenty of times when people want a little bit less work or need to understand – Like, need to have a break. That's not the same thing as not wanting to work. And I think conflating those is you're risking your own workforce doing that.

Amanda Gulino: 100%. And that's also binary thinking. It's not do I want to work or not? Right? The great resignation is not about do you want to work or not. It's like all the other conditions around work. Am I in the right job? Can I do these many hours? How much does my commute suck? Are my kids home? Like, am I taking care of a parent? Right? All of those things, right? We exist in the layers in between the binary. That's I think what we're missing in the conversation. That's where the conversation needs to be at. Not work or not work.

Cristina Amigoni: It's so true. Do I feel valued? Am I continuously learning? Are my values aligned? Is it a toxic culture? Do I get yelled at every day? 

Alex Cullimore: It doesn't mean something can't come up in your personal life. You saying there are layers of your life. You've got, "Oh, now I’m taking care of parents." Or if my kids are home safe. Or whatever it is. Or just, "I’ve loved this job. I put my heart and soul into it for two years. And that it turned out I was not taking the right breaks. And now I’m going to need a little bit of break here or something. I don't actually love the work. I’m just went too far, or whatever. Like there's a thousand reasons that people might need to step back and none of them have to do with permanently being like, "And I’m done with work forever. And I hate contributing to society." But I’ve never yet heard that sentence. 

Amanda Gulino: Right. Talk about the assumptions, right? Like if there's the one thing that I have worked on to shift in myself constantly, it's a practice. And then one thing that I work on with leaders is, "Oh, the lead to the assumption." So, let's dial it way, way back to what actually happened. What are the facts? Right? And then we walk through it and go on an assumption hunt. And then we work to unpack that. Because that's ultimately where all this is coming from, is we're assigning a story to our limited view of someone. And we can do better. And we need to do better, right? 

Particularly when we look at the pandemic, right? I mean, in this country, our leaders, our senior leaders, are still majority white and men, right? And then our frontline workers, particularly those that were most impacted in the pandemic, are lower wage and disproportionately black, and brown, and immigrants, right? So, while that still exists – And I hope we see shifts in that in our lifetime. 

Cristina Amigoni: God, I hope so. 

Amanda Gulino: Right? For all the reasons. And we have got to do better, because there's an absolute power dynamic, multiple power dynamics there. When we have the more difference, the more we need to be checking our assumptions is the general rule of thumb. 

Part of the work I do with leaders, it's all up here what happens in the head, and then in the heart, and then the actions come. But what are we assuming, right? Where is our bias going unchecked? Where is that story coming from? That's the work. Where it begins. That's not the only work. But it begins – 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and part of that is surrounding ourselves by people that are not like us. So, it's so much easier to be trapped into bias if everybody looks like us, has the same experience, it's in the same plane and we're just stormtroopers walking around, then, yeah, you get confirmation everywhere you turn. Like, "Well, I did talk to everybody else. They're experiencing – They are thinking the same way." And I’m like, "Well, they are literally clones of you." How about you know consciously create a team from the government to private where there is diversity? Because you need the other side. You need to understand that it's much more complex.

Amanda Gulino: Yeah. We become echo chambers, right? Then our conditioning – I think it's – What is it? 11 million? Some large number of million bits of second we're uploading into our brain. And very, very, very few of those are conscious. So, whether or not we're aware of it, if we're surrounded by people that look like us, think like us, make the same amount of money as us, that's what we're being uploaded on to our computer brains, right? So, I absolutely agree.

And especially, this is part of the challenge I think with diversity, equity and inclusion, where we started is diversity was just bringing in more people of color and then that's it. Not the solution, right? But like authentic relationship building with people across lines of difference, right? Where when we mess up, we seek to repair. We ask more questions, then we assume, right? When we're able to really do that inside of companies and then in our personal or one-on-one relationships, whether they're work or personal, I think that that for me is probably the next phase, right? I mean, I definitely recognize in the last 2014, '15, up to now, has been a challenging time. 

And I had this experience recently where there was this person I started working with, and I immediately was like, "I am not going to like this person." I was like, in my view, I had shared an opinion that was divergent from the rest of the group. And he's sort of – I’m not sure what he did. But I felt it was trying to basically invalidate what I said. And in that moment, I was like, "I can't stay this guy." I just had this moment of like, "I never –" I went into binary thinking. I was like, "There's no way. There's no future here." 

And it turns out we have a lot of differences between us. We don't identify the same – We're the same race. We do not identify the same in gender, politics, sexual orientation. Like we have all sorts of different, and I’m loving working with this person, because we are across so many lines of difference that it at least challenges me to, even when I disagree – That's the thing. Even when I disagree, and I already know we have a conflict of values here, I at least consider a different point of view, right? And I’m kind of loving that. And I think that's my work, my personal work, is even when I really strongly disagree, what can I start to do differently to reach across whatever aisle we're talking about? 

Alex Cullimore: I mean, there's so many different layers to it. But I really love this idea of basing that on assumptions, because that's where so much of this ends up going wrong. When you have the mindset of being able to challenge your own assumptions as well as even looking for assumptions, that's when you have a chance to make a change here rather than – But what you're saying, basically, just, "Oh, well, I’ve heard these ten thousand times before. I’m sure I’m right. That matters not that I have asked the same person four times." So, I’m going to definitely borrow and steal that phrase, assumption hunts probably forevermore. I love that. It's a great idea. Do you have any ideas on how people can find their own assumptions or maybe go on an assumption for themselves? It's great to be able to do this in dialogue. And there's so much internal work that goes into that, too.

Amanda Gulino: Absolutely. To nerd out for a second, everything that we're talking about is ultimately – We got to trick our brains, right? So much is happening unconsciously. Most of what's happening, most information we're taking in, we're not aware of it. 

And so, in order to make a change, we have to have awareness first. That has to come first. So, I have my own set of these. But I also work with clients on these what I call bias busters. So, it's a set of questions that we ask ourselves. And the key to that is not having to remember to do it, you have a cue ready to go, right? 

So, for me, I have sticky notes on my desk with a couple of things. One is always a question that I’m trying to explore. Another is a reminder to do my gratitude exercise. And the other is my bias busters, right? And sometimes there are others in there. But the questions are, "Am I looking for what I don't know here?" 

One of my favorites is if I identified differently – And I often encourage folks to try on multiple different identities. Like if I identified differently, how would I be thinking differently about this situation, right? Sometimes, for people, it's just a picture. Like a stop sign or something to interrupt the thinking. 

So, the bias buster, at least in my estimation, what that helps to do is I’ve had a thought. The thought might be about to go away. But I see this picture or this question. So, I pause on it, and I bring it into my awareness, and I consider it, and then I move on, right? So, it's really just an awareness tool, and everything else flows from that. So that's probably the number one – I mean, there's probably more. But I think that's a really solid place to start, is poking – It's poking out your own thoughts. Bias cannot withstand questioning, right? Yeah, especially when we go multiple. So bias busters.

Alex Cullimore: I love that. That's a great phrase. I think that's a really cool approach.

Amanda Gulino: Thank you. 

Cristina Amigoni: So, to wrap this up, even though we could go on forever, where can people find you? 

Amanda Gulino: Sure. Well, I am beautifully off most social media. That's one of the things I offered myself back in December. But you can find me two places. So, one, my website, abettermonday.co. And then on LinkedIn. That is the one social media that I like to play on. I pretty regularly check messages there. And it's just linkedin.com/ my name, all one word, amandagulino, is the best place to find me.

Cristina Amigoni: We'll have those in the notes. And yes, her posts are awesome. So, follow Amanda on LinkedIn. 

Alex Cullimore: One last question, though. We'd love to know your definition of authenticity. 

Amanda Gulino: It's the most honest honesty and the truthfulness that we could come up with. That ultimately is what authenticity is to me, is I think we talked about it earlier, where who we are on the inside, we feel like we would always make a choice. But we could choose to reflect that on the outside, right? And that's welcomed – And, well, that's a different conversation. But it's the insides matching the outsides to me is authenticity. And can I show up here with my thoughts, my truth, my honesty? That's it. That's ultimately it for me. And it's unique to every person. That's what I love. That's why I find it so hard to describe authenticity, because it's going to be different for all of us. And I think that's what's so special about the concept.

Alex Cullimore: Well, I think it is the definition of authenticity in itself. It is unique. Otherwise, it wouldn't be authentic. 

Amanda Gulino: So true. Woohoo! in here. I like it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, thank you so much, Amanda. Love this conversation, every conversation with you, and this one as well.

Alex Cullimore: Thank you so much. 

Amanda Gulino: Appreciate it.

Alex Cullimore: And thanks, everyone, for listening. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human.

[END]