Job Reset: Building a Better Relationship to Your Work with Taylor Short

EPISODE 64

[INTRODUCTION]

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hello, happy Monday. 

Alex Cullimore: Happy Monday, indeed. We just had a great conversation with Taylor Short, who is the founder of Harmonious Return.

Cristina Amigoni: We did. Lots to unpack and understand how to find harmony in the work we do and in our jobs. 

Alex Cullimore: What are really interesting points about how you reset yourself and reset your relationship with your job? How can you kind of refresh and connect better to yourself? And I like her approach to both from the business front and from the individual front, and how to make those really work and align. I think that's sometimes a gap that we see in talking between the two sides. And I feel she's doing a good job of bridging those two.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, it's very, very much of an authentic approach, because there's no separation, really. I mean, we are conditioned by what happens around us. But we're also conditioned by what we bring to what happens around us. And so, keeping both sides in mind, there's less of a blame game. There are lots of, “Oh, it’s all me because I'm not good enough.” Or, “It’s all the company.” Or, “It's all the boss because they're toxic.” What if it's somewhere in between?

Alex Cullimore: And what if both parties just agreed on, “Yeah.” Something like, “We want to all do better.”

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly, exactly. As supposed to go fix yourself. Either you're the employee, the leadership, or the company.

Alex Cullimore: That's the title of a great book. One day, we'll write that one. Go fix yourself. Picture middle finger on it.

Cristina Amigoni: There you go. We’ve been wondering what to call our book this whole time. We just found it.

Alex Cullimore: Please enjoy this conversation. We definitely did. Enjoy Taylor short. 

Cristina Amigoni: Enjoy. 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. 

Let’s dive in.

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Well, welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. We are here with our guest, Taylor Short. Welcome to the podcast. Taylor.

Taylor Short: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for joining us.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. We're thrilled to have you. You want to give us a little background, Taylor, on who you are and what you do?

Taylor Short: Yes. It's always how far back, right? 

Cristina Amigoni: You were born on?

Taylor Short: Yes, exactly. Ooh! How long do we have? Totally. So, geographically, I'm in Colorado, in the globe. I’ve been born and raised here. And I am a job reset coach and consultant. And a little bit of my backstory and how the heck I got into this job and what I do is I'll give you the shortened version. But when I came out of my undergrad, I just started climbing the corporate ladder, as I think a lot of us do, because we don't question it. That's what we do. We start to hustle and climb. And I was really good at driving, as probably a lot of us on this podcast and your listeners are as well. And just kind of never really questioned, “Okay, what am I doing in my career?” But climbing the ladder. And I figured the more money I made, the bigger the title that I had, the happier I would be. An American dream, all of these things, and it would be perfect. 

And so, I did that rather successfully quickly in my career and got to a point where I'm making a great salary, I have a title, I have the office space, I have the house, the family, all of the external things. But then I looked around and realized that I was at one of my most miserable points in my life internally. And there was a huge incongruence in where I was. 

And so, to fast forward through this backstory, I did my own work on myself for about two years. And I kept everything externally. So, I kept my job. I kept my husband, I always say. I kept all of the things on the outside, but totally shifted my perspective in life. And found myself two years later super happy, super satisfied, and then had this huge aha. It's not about the job actually. It's about our internal selves. 

And so that's when I looked around at my coworkers, I looked around at the industries I had been in, financial services, hospitality, project management, very corporate space, and realized this could really use some help here. Because there's a lot of people who are showing up inauthentic. We have kind of the smiles painted on our faces. And inside, they're probably struggling a little bit. So that's why I started the company that I have now. Learned to partner with leaders and their teams to help them reset their relationship to their jobs.

Alex Cullimore: The whole notion of a job reset coach. Reset is a great word for it. Just let's pick up, reframe and try again.

Taylor Short: Yeah. And sometimes that can feel heavy for people. I've even noticed that. So I've tweaked the wording a little bit when I'm working with the corporate. And now it's Refresh. Because reset can have a negative connotation to it. It's like, “Well, things are going okay.” But it's – Yeah. So, the play on words is important.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, definitely it is. Well, and it's interesting, because as you were talking about that, I can see how a lot of people can relate to that. I mean, through parts of your story, it was very much like, “Oh, mirror Cristina.” I know exactly what you're talking about. Got the title. Got the money. Got the status. Got the team. And yet things are not quite going as well internally as I thought they would be.

 Taylor Short: Yeah. And that's the part that just breaks my heart, is that not that there aren't a lot of amazing entrepreneurs out there. But I really, really struggled with this theme of you either having to struggle through corporate America, or you have to leave and figure something else out. And I just really don't believe that we're all meant to be entrepreneurs. There are some really beautiful things about being employed for someone else that really work for some people. And so why do we have to be miserable while we're there? It just doesn't have to be that way.

Alex Cullimore: You hear that a lot in leadership as well. People get promoted out of being the individual contributor, because they think they have to take the next step. But they have no interest or desire to actually do leadership, which is just a totally different type of – It doesn't mean you can't contribute at a higher level. It’s just that was the traditional trajectory, and everybody thinks they have to get to that. Or things they have to go to entrepreneurship and things they have to – There's something that must be done, rather than just refreshing your entire relationship with your job.

Taylor Short: Yeah, because it's – I totally hear that so much from people, we're not taught how to be leaders, you're saying, in leadership roles. I have a segment that I'm still toying with bringing out around leadership and how bosses have become the way they are. And I have yet to find someone who has formal training and being a manager.

Alex Cullimore: So, what does the day-to-day look like in being a job refresh coach?

Taylor Short: Basically, it looks like all of the things that I'm coaching people on that I should be doing myself, because my hair is on fire? No. Yeah, it's honestly such a blast. And I work with individuals as well. So, I kind of have two totally different swim lanes. But when I'm working with companies or with leadership teams – Is that kind of where you're getting at?

Alex Cullimore: Or just in general, what does it mean to you to help people refresh?

Cristina Amigoni: When you wake up in the morning, what do you do?

Taylor Short: Yes, yes. So, I think that the very, very essence is the name of my company is called Harmonious Return. And it's really about helping people return to harmony within their jobs and their lives. And the work that I do is very, very simple by design, because I really believe we have what I call it too much of a problem in this world. We have just too much clutter. We're being constantly pulled to all of these things. And I really do feel our answers are in the small moments day-to-day. The simplifying. 

I have a book that is the catalyst to the work that I do that's called Reset Your Relationship to Your Job. And in essence, it's a four-step process, which sounds so simple. But the simplicity is what I have found to be so challenging for people, because it's not sexy. It's not exciting. It's like, “Oh, you're telling me to take your 10-minute walk? Not going to do that.” So it can get lost in that a little bit. 

So I'm trying to, really, really help people in their daily actions to figure out what works best for that individual within a team. Because probably, just like the both of you, you work extremely differently. Maybe you have some similarities. But one person could be a morning person. And one person could be a night owl. And how does that play into your work? Or just all the different nuances that we have as individuals. How can I help to let that individual be more authentic to themselves and thrive within the roles that they have so that internal unrest is balancing out with that external success?

Cristina Amigoni: That makes total sense, for sure. And it's interesting, because when you were saying it's back to simple. We make things more complicated than they should be, or we expect them to be more complicated than they should be. I was thinking about leadership. And I find that in leadership development, that's also the case. Meaning it's not that complicated to actually lead people. 

And there's not that many sophisticated secret formulas that you're supposed to memorize or somehow inject or drink every morning. It's, not this mystery box that's found at the end of the Jungle Cruise movie. It's just things like, “Why don't you listen? Learn how to listen. Ask questions, instead of assuming.” 

So it's a very basic human-to-human relationship. If you actually take that and apply it to your employees and your teams, you will see all sorts of things happening from a leadership perspective that we're not before.

Alex Cullimore: And maybe something you run into, too, Taylor. There's that big gap between what is simple and what is easy, because it's straightforward. Like you’re saying, Cristina, to have these – These are things that help. Have relationships with people. Ask questions. Have the hard conversations. Doing them is not the easy part. Like you're saying, there are four steps. It might seem simple, but it doesn't mean it's easy.

 Taylor Short: Exactly. Exactly. And this brings up points. I'm sure you both have seen this as well. Working with people is the simplicity of communicating. And I see this huge mismatch. And I'm sure you see this too between leadership and their teams, as it's as simple as their team really would love to know if they're allowed. Or if it's okay if they can be offline. If their boss is emailing them after hours, can they be offline? 

And then you'll talk to the leader and they’re like, “Of course, it's not expected for them to be responding.” But it's like, “Have communicated? Have you said those words out of your mouth or in an email to your team?” Because I think so many times we're stuck in our own conversations in our heads and we haven't actually said that. Well, maybe we think we have or something. But it's just as simple as that. Have you said those words out loud to your team? Do they know? You know?

Cristina Amigoni: There's a lot they should know. And I'm like, “Well, assume they don't. And then start from there.”

Taylor Short: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: They’re not in your head. So let's assume they don't know, as supposed to go through this should know. And then, sorry, if you're repeating yourself, great. You're just validating and confirming. If it's new information, then great. It's a win-win to communicate. There's really no downside to it.

Taylor Short: Absolutely. Over-communicate.

 Alex Cullimore: There’s some leadership, but it’s kind of cheeky. But it was just the idea that if you're not repeating yourself so much that your team is basically making fun of you, you're probably not doing it right. 

Taylor Short: That’s awesome. I love that. 

Alex Cullimore: So, one thing that you had mentioned before we started talking about, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on. You mentioned the idea of secret burnout. And that is just a great topic. I'd love to understand a little more about what that means to you and what that is.

Taylor Short: Yes. This is such a juicy topic. And I kind of alluded to it when I was talking about my background, that I was so burnt out, but nobody would know. And, ooh! There're so many different facets that I love to bring into this. But I think, for me, there's so many different ways. But the thing that comes up for me around this is I really do feel that when we show up at work, every place is different, people are different. But for the majority, we are showing up to work as a different person. And we are not showing up as our true selves. 

And so, we are acting, right? So, we are like – I would always say I was painting a smile on my face. You could have all this stuff going on in your life. But you're still expected to show up as this kind of robotic person, you know? And it just creates this terrible turmoil within for you not to be able to express yourself as you truly are. 

And I think that we are in a pressure cooker with this right now coming out of this pandemic, because we just had two and a half years of soul searching. People getting more true with that authentic piece of them, part of them, and then now having to show up again in this way that just feels really, really jaded. But it's a secret because – Here's the thing that I'm realizing, is when we're not vocalizing as employees to our bosses and our teammates that we're struggling, then the leadership teams don't know that they're struggling. 

I talk with leaders all the time who are like, “Our culture is great. Everybody's happy.” And it's really, really hard for me as a partner to say otherwise if they're not showing up and saying that as well. But it's secret for a reason. You can't come into your boss and say, “I am struggling with my job. I'm really burnt out here.” There are repercussions for that. 

So I think that that's part of the secrecy. And I'm going to add one really cool and painful real-life experience that I recently heard of that really helped me to paint this picture of secret burnout. I was going to a yoga class and met this woman who I was talking to for a class. And we were just having small talk. I asked her what she did. And she was a high-level executive. I think she was in the banking industry. And she was saying how COVID hit, she had to deal with managing all of her team from that aspect. And then her husband had a pretty terminal disease, or something had happened as well. And then she had a house fire. And so, she had huge, huge, huge life events happening to her. 

And she said she couldn't tell anybody what was going on at work. She had to just keep showing up for her team. I'm getting goosebumps as I'm saying this because it's just so heartbreaking to me. She got to the point where she figured out with HR how she could take a sabbatical. And to me a sabbatical is an emergency situation that is becoming more known. And people feel like I'm going to lose my mind. Or I can take a sabbatical and not lose my job. 

So, this is still a newer thing. But she had presented it. And then she came to the rest of the executive team and said, “I'm taking a sabbatical.” And she said every single leader asked her how she did that, because they need to do the same thing. And so, this is the magnitude of the secrecy of this burnout that is happening. I don't think it's every single person. But I think there's a huge, huge problem. And we're seeing this great resignation happening. So, there is this underlying theme that we can't really talk about that adds just this crazy layer of misfortunes. I find it to be also unnecessary.

Cristina Amigoni: It definitely is unnecessary. And I wonder – And expect to kind of widen the space safe enough for people to be able to go to the team, to go to the executive and say, “Hey, I’m burning out.”

Taylor Short: Yeah. And what I found, too, is there's another layer. Because in working with individuals on this, it's almost their own internal work. They don't want to let themselves down. So, it could even be that they have a safe space to say this. But what if you're this person who really believes that your job is your worth, and then all the sudden you admit to yourself, “I can't do this.” Yeah, just so many different layers with hair.

Alex Cullimore: It does go back to some of that explicit communication if you think about it the idea of taking a sabbatical, is usually not available in an employee handbook. Few places have those. But usually that's not there. So, what are we really saying, though, when we don't have that in the handbook? We're saying, “If you get to a bad enough point, I really hope you're able to muster up the mental strength to go ask us for a sabbatical. Because then we'd be okay with it. We just don't want to state it.” 

Cristina Amigoni: Advertise it. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. But when you get to a really bad place, then hopefully you also have wherewithal to find it.

Taylor Short: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And for her, it sounded like she had to kind of create this with HR. It wasn't something that was just readily available.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and I'm sure you get to the point of. At least I've gotten to the point where I'm either burnt out for many reasons, for the job, for outside things. Where, when I do make the decision to speak up is when I have found that I resolved within myself that I will lose my job. And so, it's like, “Okay, I am now to the point where I can let this go. I can be fired. I can be let go. I can quit. I can do whatever needs to be done,” because that's the only way out. 

 And so, when I've had conversations with former bosses regarding, “Hey, this position, this role, this work is burning me out. I can't do it. I'm crying every day all day. And I don't want to continue.”, I've done it with the expectations of, “Yep, well, Cristina, thank you very much. We don't have any other roles for you. So sorry if you can't suck it up and figure it out.” And it takes a lot of courage. And it takes a lot of stability even as a family perspective to be able to be in that position to say, “Yep, I'm going to –” I mean, I remember telling my husband. I'm like, “Going to lose my job today after this conversation. So, let's figure that out.”

Taylor Short: Yeah. Yeah, and not being able to have that communication back and forth for fear of repercussion. Yeah.

Alex Cullimore: I like what you said, Taylor, about it being also something internally. We can almost keep it a secret from ourselves because we want to say that. And maybe because you have a family thing. You just want to keep the job. Or you just want to feel you have the ability to continue to perform at levels you believe you were at before, whatever it is. Are there ways you found to identify or start to suspect that in conversations with people in your work with Harmonious Return?

Taylor Short: Yeah. So, really helping them figure out the kind of blocks that they have for themselves and the stories that they tell internally to themselves over and over. Our brains just really are habitual. And we get kind of addicted to the stories that we're telling ourselves. 

One thing that I was thinking about that kind of goes along the lines of this was when we first started working from home, I saw a lot of people who were saying they could not disconnect from their computers, not because their bosses were telling them. So, this was the first sign of, “Oh, this might not actually be something to do with leadership. It's really something else that's going on with that individual that they're saying, “What are you saying to yourself when you're allowing yourself to disconnect from work? When you're having that time with your family, or with your friends, or your community when you're not working? What's that dialogue that's going on?” 

And so, I mean, like anything, the first thing is awareness, right? And I think it's having that we kind of fall into this tendency, or at least this is something that I found a lot in corporate America, is it's very, very simple. It's easier. It's lighter. I guess, if you will, for us to blame others outside of us for our problems. It's really, really difficult to look at where we're holding ourselves back and how we can change to make that internal shift. 

So that's why you see it so often, “Okay, it's about the boss, or the company, or the culture,” which often does have a part. But then there's this missing piece of where that employee’s control or part comes into it as well. And so, we look at that in a really tender way. Because it's not something easy to look at. But when you start to look at your own internal self and realize, “Okay, am I the one who's actually stressing myself out? Maybe I do need to have some conversations with my boss around our boundaries here. But it might actually be me.” And then you have something to work with, “Okay, now, here are the things that we can do.” So I don't know if that quite answers your question. But I think it kind of gets to the point of how you can work with them to kind of look at that mirror, as you said, Cristina.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of internal examination and awareness, especially given the kind of almost wired way that we look at work being our worth. And so, with this glorification of hard work, without really understanding what the definition of hard work is individual, it's very much of like, “Well, if I don't work hard, or if I'm seeing – If I’m seen, possibly seen, as not working hard, then I will lose my job. I'm not as good.” All those things come up. “And so, let me work myself to death and put up with things that I wouldn't otherwise not put up, because I don't want to let myself down and potentially let others down,” which is still a self-block really, because external validation is self-block.

Taylor Short: Yes. Yeah. And that competition of hard work is so rampant throughout. Really, I saw a lot in the corporate workspace like this glorification of, “Oh, well, I'm not going to take vacation because I'm working harder than you.” And there is this interesting culture. But I do know that there are ways to still be in a culture and not fall into that. 

Just, you go in. Or at least for me, it's like I always took a lunch hour. I didn't care. You have to set that precedent. And I think sometimes that is with yourself. And some people don't need that. So, I think that that's my big thing, is not having one set way for anybody. Some people really do thrive off of working hard, and they don't want to have that void. And if it's not burning them out, and it's working for them, then awesome. But don't expect that for everyone, right? And we don't need to have what I call a copy-paste template for every single leader and employee. It's like, “No. It’s not how it works.”

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. No, that definitely makes sense. It always ends up being a more individualized approach. So, have you found ways to help integrate that back into teams after you've worked with teams, you've worked with a few people? How do you help spread the mindset of we're going to have to absorb more individual needs here?

Taylor Short: Yeah. I mean, that's why I absolutely love, because when you're able to allow for – I'm sure you both see this as well. When you allow for that authenticity, for that individuality, your employees thrive, your leaders thrive, because they don't have as much on their plates dealing with employee morale issues. The company thrives. You have less turnover. You're retaining people. People are happier. They're more engaged in their jobs. But it is how do you do that? Where it's so easy as an organization that's large or small to say, “We need everybody to do the same thing and do it the same way?” How do you hold a space to have this individuality within an organization? It probably sounds like chaos to a lot of leaders, right? Because you're like, “I cannot manage all of these people individually,” right? It’s so much going on. 

So that's when I work with the leadership team to get really creative, “What are your must-haves? Do you have to have certain coverage during these times? Do you have to –” We look at things like – I mean, what do you make people wear to work? Where can you allow some flexibility within every job description so that your needs are met as a business? Of course, that's why everyone is working towards the collective of these businesses. But then how can you allow for flexibility within that and get really creative? Maybe you're not the one who's managing all of these schedules, but you've delegated that to someone else, or the employees are figuring out how to manage their schedules together, and they love doing that, or whatever. 

But it really takes a curious mindset coming out of this leadership of saying, “Okay, we've always done it this way. But we're willing to try something else and figure out how to be flexible.” Play with it. If it's not working, you can always tweak it. It's not black and white. But it's just having this ability to see what's working for people, listening to what they're wanting, first and foremost, right? Figuring out what you can and cannot allow, and then finding that flexibility and creative space within.

Alex Cullimore: I love that approach. That's really cool. The idea of just starting from minimum basic needs. This is what the business needs. What can we do outside of that? Do you ever find conflict between the individual wants of different leaders? I know that I've seen examples of people who for example, in coming back to the office, there are certain leaders that just really love being in the office. And so, they kind of start to treat it like it's a need for the business, whether it is or not. Have you ever had internal conflicts is this actually a business need? Is this a leader needed? Does that come up?

Taylor Short: Yeah, absolutely. And that goes back to kind of what the employees are saying. So if it's really, really important for them, when we're talking to the employees that they have flexible schedules, then I think that's where we press a little bit more. And like, “Is this really a need?” Or maybe I'm just thinking about when I was in financial services, we had different departments as many people do. Okay, is it just the sales team that needs to be there? Because they're client-facing? And do all the others – Like, does accounting need to be there? So, you start to get a little bit creative. Of course, you want to be mindful of what other departments are allowed to do. But I think that also just comes with the nature of the work that people are doing. 

So really figuring out like – Yeah, and that goes against really questioning and having those leaders listen to their employees, and then checking with themselves. Do I really need to have butts in seats? Or is that just something that I prefer to have versus a business need?

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and the additional question is, “Why do I prefer that?” So, investigating the motive behind it? Is it because I'm used to it? Is it because I think people will slack off if I don't see them working? Which I've witnessed many times, people slacking off eight hours a day with their butts in their seats in front of a computer. So, it really means absolutely nothing to productivity and actually getting the work done. 

And so, where's that coming from? And, to me, sometimes it comes from internal insecurity of I don't – I can't tell if somebody's working unless I actually see them physically in front of me typing on a keyboard, whether it's on Facebook, on Twitter, or on the actual Excel spreadsheet, it doesn't matter. I see them typing. Therefore, I know they worked. So, from a leadership perspective, it goes back to something we mentioned at the beginning, because when people are not taught to be leaders, how do you measure when people are working? And it has nothing to do with watching them actually work.

Taylor Short: Right. Well, I think you're exactly right. That's the need to have, right? Okay, so you're getting down to, “Okay, what is it that you need? You need to know when people are working.” Of course, that's a fear of, I think, a lot of people is, okay, some people really do work while at home. But some people might be unproductive. But they can also be unproductive in the office. So then what are – Is where they are really a good judge of the work that they're doing? Or do you need to have other signposts in there, “Okay, we need to see a certain amount of hours logged on?” Or whatever that is. But can we just realize that that's not doing the job that we want it to do and put into place the milestones, or the different pieces that we need to have in order to measure productivity?

Cristina Amigoni: So, from a perspective of – You talked about different swim lanes. Working with teams in corporate and working with individuals. How do they differ in your work?

Taylor Short: Yeah, it's so cool, because – Well, I'll put it this way. Corporate America is a little more conservative. As we know, it's what we're saying. We're showing up as our acting role, as our Brad Pitt, or whoever, our alias. And so, when I'm working with corporations, you have a lot more people, right? So that's something. And I guess, for lack of a better term, you're a little more PC, and figuring out coming into this space and being respectful of what's already there. Not completely rocking the boat. But how do we shift the paradigm a little bit as we're working here in order for the goodness of the whole organization? So, it's a little bit more buttoned-up, I guess, if you will, working with people in the corporate space. 

And then on the individual side, what I found is that people really love working with others and hearing from others who are in a similar situation, but they don't know. So, I do a lot of group work. And it's been really fruitful for these folks to come in. And especially with that secret burnout is to admit. I mean, I've had so many people say, “Oh, it's just so nice to be real and be able to talk about what's really going on at work,” and not have to worry about that repercussions. So, I think both are effective. It's just a little bit different in the style of how you get to work with these audiences.

Alex Cullimore: That's a great insight. I like the idea of working with groups because you get that connection. Now, the secret is out. There’s no secret burnout.

Taylor Short: Yes. Shared secret. Yeah. Totally.

Cristina Amigoni: So, how do you, I guess, guarantee if that's possible, that there is no repercussion? So, it's like it's still a secret. It's a secret for a reason. And now I'm in a space where I'm told to share. How do I feel safe sharing, knowing that I won't get a call from HR or my manager tomorrow because I just shared this to other people?

Taylor Short: Yeah. On the corporate side, yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Taylor Short: So, that, I'm sure you two actually probably really love this, too. I personally love coming in as a non-biased party. So, I can help navigate that a little bit and let leadership know what I'm seeing. And then also, help the employees understand where leadership is coming from, or where their perspective is. So, I personally love being in Sweden in that situation, right? 

In the work that I do with teams, and when we're sharing that, I do really encourage people. We are working in teams, but it is really individual. So, there's not – I'm not pressuring people to outwardly share with others things that they wouldn't feel comfortable with. But they are working through the process to be able to be doing the work, but not sharing in a situation that doesn't feel safe or supported to them. 

I have noticed significantly, that when you're working at a job that you've already had for some time, you have some very deep patterns and conditioning within that job around certain people, around the way things are done. And so, you're up against a little bit more of a challenge than if you were to just go somewhere else, right? Kind of a clean slate. 

And so, it's got to be really, really touchy in there. And then also, me being kind of a trusted party is helping to be there to support those folks as well. And then gaining collective information to be able to then speak to leadership about some of the things that we're seeing and not singling out anyone. So, it is individual work, but it's absolutely not meant to be. The only thing that's coming up to me is an AA meeting, right? Where you're all sitting around being, “Okay, here's my story.” It's not really that type of work, I guess if you will. They're doing the work together individually and having a few conversations around it.

Alex Cullimore: Definitely. And I love your analogy of being Sweden in that as well because that's a great term for it. You become this buffer zone where there is safety on both sides. I'm going to express to you what I'm hearing from the team. And the leadership has a chance to respond. And I was just thinking about that in terms of your story with the woman who got the sabbatical. The leaders all came and said, “Yeah, I could use a sabbatical,” which is a good reminder. If you're a leader out there, if you feel this discomfort around showing up authentically, you're almost positively projecting that to the team. That is going to be starting to come out into the culture. If you feel unsure about this, how can you make that work for everybody else? How can you trust that people would feel safe if you're also not feeling safe, which is a good self-indicator? But it does require these things you're talking about, doing the individual work even if it's at a team level.

Taylor Short: Yeah. I don't know why this is popping up for me. It's kind of off-topic. But as you're saying that, and we were questioning the secrecy, I wonder, too, if some of the secrecy around this for leadership, or not feeling, is because leaders don't really know what they would do or offer if their people came to them. I mean, is leadership equipped to handle this? And that's why I'm like, “You can hire me. Or you can hire all of us to come and support you in this.” But, really, it's kind of a newer thing that we're seeing when you're able to talk about mental health in the workplace. So, I don't know. That just popped in as you were saying that.

Alex Cullimore: It's very true. We are a bit of defining what's possible. What are common themes? And people are trying things. We see different studies coming out of McKinsey or Harvard Business Review around different well-being exercises. We are kind of on a new front just as a work society. This is a new kind of uncharted territory. We are all discovering this a little bit together.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and as a society in general, if you think about the athletes as well, finally speaking out. I mean, burnout has always existed. It's not something that's, “Oh, the pandemic brought burnout.” I'm like, “No, no. Burnout has always been there.” Just like people have always been human. That's the one common denominator, is just that now people are actually speaking up because they’ve realized that continuing to go in secrecy is harming them more than whatever possible consequence of losing their jobs, losing sponsorships if they're in sports, or whatever it is. They're no longer willing to gamble their health.

Taylor Short: And I think, around that secrecy, too, because I really like to look at all angles. And it can be hard or challenging for a company to say that and admit that they have people who are burning out, right? Because that would admit that something's not working within the organization. 

But I think as we continue to bring this more to light and understand it is more common than not. And it doesn't really have to do with the organization on every single level. And that if you look into this closer, instead of shying away from it, it really, really can benefit every single level of the organization and really help the organization thrive. It just can feel like a little bit of a sting, right, when you're like, “Oh, my employees aren’t happy, and they're burning out, and they're wanting to leave.” So that was just another thing, as you were saying that Christina, that was coming up.

Alex Cullimore: It’s a super important reframe. I like that because there is some normalizing of burnout. That way, people can talk about it a little more. But there's also normalizing that burnout isn't even necessarily a signal that the whole culture is broken, or everything's bad. It's just you can burn out doing something you love. Just, “Did it feel way too hard for too long? You lost some other portion of your life. You didn't spend time with your family or something that used to recharge you, but you cut those hours back slowly? And now you're burnt out.” It doesn't always have to be emblematic of a problem. 

We talked about this sometimes with conflict resolution. There are two parties involved, and everybody always agrees unanimously. Somebody is probably lying. It's okay to have some conflicts, not because it doesn't mean that there's something wrong. It just means that we just have to talk this one out. We have to understand from both sides to have a little bit more dialogue, a little bit more something before we get to a shared understanding we can move forward on. It doesn't mean we all agree on everything all the time, because that's disingenuous, too. And it's probably worth normalizing that just having burnout is something that happens. It doesn't mean that there's something broken, or that we have to take this personally, or defensively. Like, “Oh, no. We did it wrong. There's burnout.”

Taylor Short: Absolutely. And I mean, I will tell you kind of one of the key points that I find in the work that I do, is that I will tell you the majority kind of the cut to the end of what happens here, is what I see is that people are spending – If we have our whole life, our energy – With our energy or where we're spending our mental energy, they are spending 95% of their mental energy at work. And that's even whether they're there or they're not. And they're obsessing about whether their boss is going to ping them. Or if they can take the time off. They're like never, never not at work. 

And so, a lot of the work that I do really has nothing to do with work. It's about bringing in joy outside of work. It's about eating lunch. It's about taking some of that pie chart down because we are just so hyper obsessed with work that we – I say that too much problem. And you're exactly right. A lot of it – Some people are, “We didn't even really talk about work.” I'm like, “Because you were talking about work too much. You need to do something else. Do you know what I mean?” And so, that's some of the work that we do. And so, you're exactly right. When you say burnout, sometimes it isn't even about the place. It can just be about how that person is living their life, and how much emphasis they're placing on work.

Alex Cullimore: And I love it. I'm just going to combine this with another earlier thought you had. I love the pie chart idea and mental energy. You have 100% of your mental energy available. How much is going to different areas? And you talked about going to work. And there's a lot of going to work with a smile painted on your face. There's some kind of mask. There's some kind of role we're performing there. 

If you think about that pie chart, I think there's – Think of the amount of energy you could redirect, re-spend elsewhere if you're not using 30% to 70% of your energy keeping that roll-up. Does that become such an important facet of how you spend your time? Because you're not just kind of more comfortable, feeling authentic, and doing whatever you would more comfortably do, you're putting a lot of energy into making sure you appear however you think you should have to appear. And that's one, really, I think, good indicator of ROI on doing work like this. What is all the energy that you free up able to go into you afterwards? If I lost, and I was doing 60% masking, and I pulled that down to 20%, that's huge. How much more can go to whatever you're doing, be more creative, more productive, be more in touch with your family, whatever?

Taylor Short: It's so huge. And it's reminding me of one of the takeaways that a gal in my group program was saying, “I know people will be, “I can't believe this.” But she started listening to music again. And she had gotten so hyper-focused on work that she didn't even listen to music. And I think, for those of us who are extreme music lovers, I'm like, “Oh, my gosh. Your life without music. What is that?” But it’s like then she incorporates music into her day. And that 20% of her energy is back, you know? So, I think it's – When you think about it energetically, that's what I think it's really profound.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I think it’s a good two-way indicator, too. You can then start to notice, “Wait. Oh, oh, my goodness, I haven't opened Spotify in two weeks.” “Did I stop listening to music?” “Oh, well, things might be going bad. I should probably look into this.”

Taylor Short: Yes, yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, where are those must-haves in life to feel better? Have that list. And it's usually pretty simple. It's like I go outside and get fresh air once a day. Whatever. I take my lunch break. I listen to music. Whatever it is that needs to be. But what are the must-haves so that I know those days feel better than others?

Alex Cullimore: There's a study done on that for flow and talking about how different levels of productivity. And when you're in flow, it's some insane multiplier of how productive you tend to be. So if you're in flow for – It's like 10 times the productivity or five times productivity. So if you're only in flow for half an hour, you're still getting what? Two and a half hours of what would otherwise be just regular work out of that, which is a good reminder, in case people are worried about, “Well, what if I just let people walk for an hour in the middle of the day?” Sure, they lose an hour, lose an hour. But what are the rest of those hours like? Because again, if you have that replenish energy, you can do a totally different two hours afterwards than three hours, because you didn't take one walking.

Taylor Short: Exactly. I always say you get to a point where there's nothing that's going in or out of your brain. And you can just stare at a computer and you're, “Yeah, I've got nothing.” And you're technically working by yourself just like – 

Cristina Amigoni: You're warming up a chair even if you got a spreadsheet. That's called working, sure. Which is where that definition of hard work needs to come in. What's your personal definition of hard work?

Taylor Short: So, I used to love that. And I still have so much conditioning around hard work. Actually, probably similar to you and a lot of your listeners, we love to work. I can't really even imagine retiring someday. I just really love it. It brings me a sense of satisfaction. But I'm learning that hard work and that work can feel easy, which I don't know how much time we have. But this human design that I've been, certifying and learning about, is really about how we're designed to work. And that it can feel easy, but we're conditioned that no pain, no gain, all these hard things. You gotta grind to it. You got to hustle. And it feels exhausting.

Cristina Amigoni: It does. Yeah. Yeah, so tell us more about human design.

Taylor Short: Yes, because I'm so excited about it. A lot of people have been asking me, “Do you bring any type of personality assessment, something like that? Because it could be really beneficial.” For those of you who have been in the consulting and corporate space, you're well aware of these different types of assessments. A lot of people do the DISC assessment, where you kind of determine how you work with others, areas like the Enneagram that we have heard of. There's also Myers Briggs. There's a lot of different pieces like this. 

And human design, the best way to describe it is it's an energetic version of Myers Briggs. So, going back to the energy, you guys can tell where I get my excitement is really how we're energetically meant to be at work, in that flow. And it has blown my mind. I have been using it myself for the last year and a half. And so, I decided I really wanted to study this and get certified. Super complex. But my long-term vision for this is to be able to bring it into the workspace and do a Cliff Notes version for leaders and for employees to understand a few pieces in their charts. So that they can feel more – A lot of things that happen, or you feel more validated in the way that you operate in this world. 

For example, there are some types who really cannot do a 40-hour workweek. Or they have to rest there. And there are others who can work a lot harder and have more energy to do that. There's one piece that I'll pull out, because there are so many different facets that I absolutely love, around routine. And this is in our human design chart. We either have this or we don't. And I really resonated with it. Because in this hard workplace and high achievers, we hear a lot about routine. And these crazy morning routines. You have to get up at four in the morning. And then you got to go on your 17-mile run. And you have to do all of these things. And I've seen so many of my clients who are, “I can't do these routines. I've tried so hard, and they just feel like failures.” 

And so, I learned human design. And I learned we have this piece in our chart that there – I'll just say 50-50. It's not cut that clean and dry. But there are half of us that really, really thrive off of having a really strict routine. My husband is one of them. He will run every day on his lunch. He will have the same lunchtime. He thrives when he has that. And when he doesn't have that, it's really hard for him. 

For me, I am the opposite. I actually reject routine. It does not work well for me. And I have lived a lifetime wondering why the hell I cannot do a routine. He's like, “You just gotta do it this way. And we're all trying to muster up this.” And so, I was like, “Well, how does this work if you want to –” For example, I want to still exercise and move my body. 

So, what I've started doing is just checking in that day, literally with my energetics of that day. And like, “Okay, how do I want to move my body today?” And some days maybe I'll go on to do yoga. Maybe I'll go on a long walk. Or maybe I will take a cardio class or do something. But the fact of the matter is why I love this so much for the workplace is we work differently. And we're designed to work differently. And we look at our coworkers or our boss and think that there's something wrong with us if we can't be successful the same way they are. 

So, this is my hope and dream for bringing it into the workspace, is really pulling out those authentic pieces for those people and giving it to their leaders so they understand how they work as well so that it's more cohesive and accepted as individuals. So that was a total mouthful. But I hope it gave you a little bit of a picture around it.

Alex Cullimore: That's a fantastic vision. I love that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, definitely. It's super fascinating. Because it's true, we all work very differently. We all are designed differently. And to not understand that for ourselves and then normalize it for the leaders and everybody else on the team, really helps for communication. It's like, “Hey, don't communicate so and so before 10 am. Their brain is not turned on.” But, yes, do you want to send a Slack message at 5am to Taylor? Go right ahead. That's her most awake time.

Taylor Short: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. That's how I see it. Helpful leaders with a Cliff Notes version of boom-boom-boom for each person. Because they need help just as much, right? How do you support individuals in that way without making it just a full-time job for them to do all of that? 

Alex Cullimore: One thing I see ends being important with work like this, when you do find these individual pieces, is making sure that it's understood that there's value in whatever type there is. Because then it becomes very easy to be, “Well, yeah, I am this type.” But every success article, like you're saying, has a 4 am running routine that involves taking all your leadership supplements at the end of it. Whatever you're doing. You do – 

Cristina Amigoni: Now, there's a billion-dollar idea. Leadership supplements. 

Alex Cullimore: A powder of leadership. You can mix it right in your smoothies.

Taylor Short: You heard it here. Oh my God.

Alex Cullimore: There's just normalizing it. It's better to understand these things. Because then you can have the success within all these realms, rather than being like, “Well, we think that people who wake up at 4 am are successful.” So, try whatever you need to try to get yourself up at four. Because that's a painful way to go about this.

 Taylor Short: Well, and I always go back to, clearly, you can tell the analogies. But I think it helps to really paint the picture of some of these concepts for people, as I use a lot of nature in the work that I do. I'm actually in what they call a nature-connected coach. And really, the basis of that is learning from the wisdom of nature as such an amazing teacher. We are nature as human beings. 

And when you look at an organization, it's very similar to just an ecosystem. And every single species within that ecosystem is so critical to its importance. But they don't all operate and look and do the same thing, right? They work together. And if one of those people goes out, then the whole organization or ecosystem will collapse. So, it's not creating this everybody needs to look and feel the same. But really celebrating the gifts that every single person has to bring to the organization.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, isn't it interesting how we totally get that in nature? And we respect nature for that. But we somehow think “Oh, well, no. We're not like the rest of the animal kingdom. Or we're not like the rest of the earth.” If you look at every tree, every tree is different. And no, you're not judging the trees by saying, “Well, you're a little bit more crooked than the other tree. So, you're not quite as much of a tree as this other tree, because you’re not quite as tall. You don't have –” I mean, we don't do that. And yet with people, we find this need almost and preconditioned to you should all be treated the same. You should all respond the same. You all need one communication. Or you all need no communication.

Taylor Short: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's probably gone. I mean, there are so many different concepts. But I'm guessing it probably has come that way because it's easier, right? It's easier to say, “Y'all do it like this. This is how we do it. But I don't think it's correct.”

Cristina Amigoni: It's the factory line.

Taylor Short: Yeah, worked in factories, right, when you’re producing actual things. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, I know. And the funny thing is that even factory items are not all the same. Otherwise, every car would function the same way. No cars would break down. Some break down after six months, or some never break down. So, even the factory line doesn't work for objects. Why would we want it for humans?

Alex Cullimore: Well, they also proved that it doesn't work for treating workers that way. There have been studies of taking assembly lines, and you treat them with the same servant leadership ideas that we like to think of in other spaces. Yeah, this applies there. But the assembly line, you should just try and do one-size-fits-all, or management from the top, or whatever else. And then you run it. It's still just humans doing human work. And so, you can tremendously increase productivity when you don't treat everybody the same even if they're doing the same section of an assembly line.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I'm sure we could solve a few other problems in the world and come up with a few more billion-dollar ideas like leadership supplements.

Taylor Short: Yes. Sign me up.

Cristina Amigoni: So, two questions for you, Taylor. One is what does authenticity mean to you?

Taylor Short: Authenticity to me? You guys even told me when I was going to be asked this question. Authenticity to me means that you are just being your real self. Simple as that.

Cristina Amigoni: Beautiful. Simple. Simple. Back to simplicity. 

Alex Cullimore: Simple, not easy.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Simple, not easy. Yeah.

 Alex Cullimore: And secondarily, where can people find you? 

Taylor Short: Yes. So, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. It is one of my favorite platforms. So, I'm on LinkedIn. And I do more of it on my personal page than on my company page. So, feel free to follow me there and on Instagram. And those are both Harmonious Returns, Taylor Short. And then my website is harmoniousreturn.com.

Cristina Amigoni: And we'll have all that in the show notes.

Taylor Short: Mm-hmm.

Alex Cullimore: Thank you so much for joining us, Taylor. This is a great conversation. And thank you for all of your ideas.

Taylor Short: Yes, what a great conversation, and for the work that you're doing as well. There can't be enough of us, right. So, I appreciate you.

Alex Cullimore: We appreciate you, yeah. Always fun to share the space with people doing similar work. It's just a privilege of what we get to do. So, thank you so much for joining.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, we may have to come back so that we can unpack our own human design charts. 

Taylor Short: Yes, yes. I can't wait. 

 Cristina Amigoni: Well, thank you. 

Taylor Short: Mm-hmm. Thank you. 

Alex Cullimore: And thanks, everyone, for listening. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. 

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human. 

[END]