Values and Authenticity in Professional Transitions with Lauren Grau

EPISODE 127 

[INTRODUCTION] 

"Lauren Grau: And that's such a common question to ask when you're meeting people, right? People would say, "What do you do for work?" This is a common kind of conversation starter. And I always love to – like when I'm asking that back to someone or whatever, I always love to ask like a really direct or pointed question. Like, "Are you happy in your job?" Because that usually can open up a whole different set of things."  

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hello. 

Alex Cullimore: We have today another repeat guest for you, Lauren Grau. She came to us – actually, she was one of our first podcast guest, I think, way back when when we were young people. Not like now. 

Cristina Amigoni: Young and honest. Young and innocent. Young and interesting. I don't know.  

Alex Cullimore: We'll let the listeners decide which of those adjectives has fallen off over these three years. This is actually a good timing for us. This is our third year we have just begun for this podcast. This is kind of season 3. Kind of just calendar year three. But either way, it's a good time to have Lauren back on. 

Cristina Amigoni: Season 4. Yes.  

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Yes, that's true. Yeah.  

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Yeah. It was great to have her back on. Talked about values a lot. Because, well, we never talk about that. We needed to double down on this episode. But also, just how difficult it is to make career transitions even without having to be major transitions in a different company, or industry, or totally different job. But even just changing our day-to-day in some ways and what would help to go through that transition and that journey. And what the role of a coach would actually be in that. And how it really – understanding our values is key for those transition moments.  

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. At all times, life is changing a little bit on us. We are doing some kind of changing. It's always good to kind of think about what do we do and how do we manage a transition. And how do we get clarity on things that are inherently unknowable like the future? The future, as much as we can try and plan, as much as we can put ahead of time, there's only so much that we can really guide to go our way or to go a specific way. How do we get more comfortable with that unknowability in life? And she has great insights on how you can do that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And I love how she says that the journey is the journey. There's no way to shortcut it really. However, doing it with a coach really speeds it up and it makes it a little less spinning in place and digging our own holes. It's very hard when we stand in our own way. And we're very good at doing that, especially through transitions into the unknown. And so, a coach can be that kind of guardian angel or Jedi that helps us move through and get some motion and not just dig holes around us. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Yeah. Great insights on some of the – what you can do in the middle of large life transitions.  

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. So enjoy. 

Alex Cullimore: Enjoy.  

Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives.  

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves.  

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens. 

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni.  

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in. 

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in.  

“Authenticity means freedom.” 

“Authenticity means going with your gut.” 

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.” 

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.” 

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.” 

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.” 

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.” 

[EPISODE] 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. We are joined by our guest who's actually been on before, Lauren Grau. Welcome back to the podcast, Lauren. 

Lauren Grau: Thanks, Alex. Good to be back. Thanks for having me. 

Cristina Amigoni: Love to have you back. 

Alex Cullimore: Very happy to have you back. We got to actually spend the last week with Lauren. We went to a retreat that we kind of developed all together. And it was super fun. Lauren put together an awesome values exercise which has actually changed and reshaped a bunch of how I was working with values. Because I haven't done anything like that in a while. It was really nice to go get that refresher.  

And I think we talked a little bit about that maybe even last time you were on the podcast. But just so people have some background. What's your story, Lauren? And what brought you here? And what have you been up to since the last time? 

Lauren Grau: Yeah. Well, I won't tell my whole story. Because that'll take up all the time. I'll just briefly say that I am a leadership coach and I'm a mental health coach. And I love that we are coaches talking to coaches. Because you guys are coaches. And I just think it's awesome to have a room full of coaches at any time.  

And I think the reason I was so jazzed to get connected with you guys again is because, as you know, there are many different reasons to work with a coach. And there are lots of different types of coaches who specialize in certain subject matters or people challenges.  

For example, an executive or a leadership development coach might help a person develop their skills as a leader and connect better with their team and improve their performance and connection specific to the workplace setting. And then there are types of coaches that specialize in grief that we are just alluding to that. Or types of coaches that help gain clarity around relationship issues or all those kinds of things.  

And because of the nature of the contracts that I have in my own coaching practice, I feel really grateful that I find myself in a few different types of specialty areas. For example, in one capacity, I serve as a mental health coach and help people reduce stress, and anxiety, and mild to moderate depression. In another capacity, I serve as a leadership coach and we're working on things like what type of development is required to earn a promotion or understand how to balance their work and life better, especially for those people that prioritize their career for most of their life.  

But something I've noticed along the way which is interesting is that there's this area that I support a lot of the time, which is this like group of people who want to go through a professional career transition or career change. And the thing that interests me most about that is how confusing it can be.  

I think, yeah, it's just – when we're told we're young we can be anything we want to be. And then there's a part of me that wishes that I grew up in a different time where you became a blacksmith because your father was a blacksmith. And that was that, you know? Anyway, it's this career transition kind of niche or professional change risk-taking that has kind of got me to focus in that subject area.  

And that's such a common question to ask when you're meeting people, right? People would say, "What do you do for work?" This is a common kind of conversation starter. And I always love to – like when I'm asking that back to someone or whatever, I always love to ask like a really direct or pointed question. Like, "Are you happy in your job?" Because that usually can open up a whole different set of things. Because I would say there's a – like I'm saying, there's this large population of people in the world that just aren't – they're just doing the things because it's what they're familiar with.  

I mean, I've worked with people that have been in the workforce for only a couple of years and are noticing some dissatisfaction. I've worked with people who have been in the workforce, like you're saying, for 20 or 25 years and they're like, "Wait a minute. I don't know if I'm where I meant to be." I guess the point of all of this is you're not alone in this. And this is a really common experience.  

Alex Cullimore: You just alluded to one of the huge portions of confusion, which is like, "Wait. Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing?" But what other kind of elements are you seeing in confusion and what are the big themes that you've noticed in this transition work? 

Lauren Grau: Yeah. I mean, I think the pressure to make a decision – the freedom of choice comes with this pressure about making the right decision, or the wrong one, or somewhere in between. And so, a lot of the inks and anxiety that I'm noticing is just around like what are my options? I don't know what else is out there. I don't know – because I have this skillset, or this knowledge base, or I graduated and have this degree in X, Y, Z, that primes me for specific trajectory. And I don't know anything else. It's just like the lack of information.  

And then, I mean, you guys are change management gurus. And I think just the idea of changing up and uprooting your whole life and entering in a different industry or even just a different role type can be really scary because you don't know what it would be like.  

And then the last thing I'd say is a repeated pattern is the financial component of this. A lot of people are feeling burnt out at the same time of wanting to make a career transition. That seems to be a really common theme. And so, a lot of people are considering taking time off. And so, do I have enough money to do that? Do I have enough financial savings saved for something like that? Or what if I change into a career that makes less than I make now? Or what if I'm starting a business and I'm not going to see a profit for a few years? Do I have enough money there? There's a lot of lack of clarity around what it actually takes to make a career change.  

Cristina Amigoni: There's definitely a lot to consider. A lot of unknowns. A lot of fears out there. How do you help people through these transitions as a coach? 

Lauren Grau: I use a lot of the – the first kind of order of business I will suggest is doing some self-reflection via an expert. Richard Bolles wrote What Color Is Your Parachute? Have you guys heard of this book before?  

Cristina Amigoni: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember reading it when I graduated college. 

Lauren Grau: I think I was interning somewhere and my supervisor at the time gifted it to me as like a goodbye present. And since then, I've gone through the exercises three times at different periods of time in my life. And only was it the third time that after I completed all the exercises and filled out what he calls your flower did I quit my job and become a coach.  

His work has really preempted a lot of why I have made my own career change. And so, I'm passionate about people doing that kind of work itself. The trouble is it takes time. It takes so much time. The exercises, if you remember, that he has, you go through and kind of evaluating all the things you didn't like about every job you've ever had. And then kind of also identifying the flip side of that. Just these exercises take time. And so, sometimes that can be daunting for people.  

But in his work, he goes over – I think there are six different categories that, in theory, if you were able to find a job that kind of met each of these for you or at least most of them, then that would be your dream job so to speak. It's things like what type of people do you want to work with? What type of skills and knowledge do you want to be able to have in order to perform your job? What type of tasks are you engaged in? What type of mission are you serving? All the purposes that there are available in the world. Which one do you want to contribute to? What level of responsibility do you want to have and salary that goes with that? Where do you want to live geographically in the world? There are all these different kind of self-inventory type things that you work through. And then at the end of that, you get to see all your data and kind of maybe make a decision from there.  

Alex Cullimore: That's really cool. I like those questions by themselves. Just they don't actually carry a lot of like judgment for it. Just the question is like how much responsibility do you want to have? What kind of salary is that? These aren't like, "Which one has the most growth? Which one has the most success? Which one has the most material this or that?" Or whatever other things we can commonly measure against. I really like just the idea of reflecting and accepting that you could have a totally individual answer without having to subscribe to somebody else's. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Definitely.  

Lauren Grau: Yeah. And who does that? Do you remember who gifted you the book, Cristina? Or how did you come across it?  

Cristina Amigoni: I think I bought it. And I was clearly too young to even go through the – I definitely did not go through the exercises. I just remember feeling lost and not knowing graduate college, especially in liberal arts. It probably happens in most majors and most types of degrees, except for the people that just know. I've met a couple of people that like they just knew when they were two days old that they were going to be a pediatrician. That was it. And that never changed. But I probably think that the majority of people have no idea what they want to do when they're done studying.  

And so, I remember like I studied philosophy and it was mostly because I had friends that told me, they were great professors in philosophy, and so, "Go to that department." But I graduated and I had no idea. And I remember thinking like, "Oh, that was the book that people talked about to figure it out." And I probably read the first – I don't know. Maybe 50 pages. And then I was like, "Oh, yeah. I need to figure this out." And then I closed it and waited for the universe to hand me the answer. That didn't come for a good 25 years or so. Well, parts of the answers came.  

Lauren Grau: Just took you a little longer. That's all.  

Cristina Amigoni: It's a journey. 

Lauren Grau: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: I became very clear the whole time. Every time I was in a job that I knew wasn't it, it was always very clear for me. And so, that's always what gave me the motivation to keep trying something else. It's like, "No. This is not it." Gaining a ton of skills.  

Also, what helped me a lot was to start noticing the pattern of what I am learning, it is transferable. A lot of what I'm learning in each job is transferable. And I can pinpoint when I was able to use skills in every job that I had learned from jobs before that were completely different. And I had no idea that that was going to help me 10 years later, five years later in a completely different industry, in a completely different role.  

And so, once – that's part of, I guess, the confidence to know it's okay to change. It's not sunk cost. You did not waste 20 years of your life. You have learned things, a lot of very important things. The rest is just details. But learning how to deal with people. How to work with a team? All those skills that sometimes are talked about as soft skills, those are the transferable skills. Solving problems, analyzing, discerning, approaching, creating a presentation. You never know. All those things – okay, in one industry, it's architecture and it's buildings. And in the other industry is health care and it's medicine. But it's still knowing how to put a presentation together, it's still the skill. Knowing how to communicate what you know, it's still the skill. That's what I loved about jumping around and figuring all things out. 

Alex Cullimore: And that does. I think that's a huge blocker for people is that sunk cost idea. And I think I even read it. I can't remember exactly how it was phrased. But it was a great quote. It was like, "You're not starting over. You're starting with an idea. You're starting with what you have and going forward."  

In some of your work learn and working with this kind of thing, what do you see and how do you help people kind of move past some of those mentalities of like sunk cost or I don't know if this is the right thing to do?"  

Lauren Grau: Well, once you have a better idea of what you're looking for or what you want, it's interesting to ask people then, "Okay. Tell me what you think is rubbing up against your dissatisfaction in your current situation." For example, if I've identified the type of people that I usually drive really well with and get to work as part of a team with, and the people I'm with right now are like a huge source of my dissatisfaction or stressors, then being able to know that, "Okay. If I did consider a career transition, we need to be able to ask different interview questions to kind of get at identifying if this would be a better fit." You know what I mean?  

Being able to flip-flop and I figure out, "Where is it that I'm not feeling fulfilled and really purposeful or just generally unhappy in my current situation?" Where's that itch coming from. And then ensuring that we can at least, going back to those options, see what else is out there. See what's available. See what choice you could make that's different.  

I wonder if either of you remember, there's this kind of coaching skills/self-inventory type questioning you can coach yourself with called Safety Net Coaching, which is really just a series of a few different questions. And it's like – going back to the limiting beliefs and the fear of change kind of thing, being able to ask yourself, "Okay. When I think about making a career transition or a career change, what specifically am I afraid of happening?" And getting really clear on the fear.  

Let yourself catastrophize. Let yourself paint the worst-case scenario picture that I'm going to lose my house. I'm going to not be able to afford groceries, which actually wouldn't be that bizarre right now. But what are the horrible things that I'm imagining? I burn bridges or I remain unemployed for X am ount of months or whatever. Get really clear on anything that you think could go wrong in this situation. I get a new job and I hate it. And then ask, "And if that were to happen, what would I do?"  

Kind of coming up with this backup plan can be a really nice reminder that, in fact, you've survived everything that you've survived to date and are here to tell the tale. And so, most things are figureoutable and it's not necessarily ideal. We don't want any of those worst-case scenarios to come to fruition. But if in fact they did, you have prepared for what you might do as a reactionary tail and that just kind of gives you a little bit more confidence in moving forward. That's one thing that comes to mind in trying to help people move past the fear around all of it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I love safety net coaching. I definitely remember that in the iPEC training. And I remember actually going through it because it was the beginning of building Siamo and figuring out the next step. And I remember going through it from that point of view. It's like what's the worst thing that can happen with this new company we want to build and division that's not a thing yet?  

Lauren Grau: Scary. 

Cristina Amigoni: Scary. 

Alex Cullimore: There's so much power that I think is – I was thinking about that everytime like not going through the exercises in the parachute book, it can feel easy to like look at a question and be like, "What were the things you didn't like at a job?" And if you don't sit down to like do that and get clear on that, it's easy to fall into things like, "Well, I just didn't like like this. Or here's two things I didn't like." And that's probably enough for that question. I want to keep reading and figure out what else the next thing is. But all that work you're talking about and getting people's clarity on what are the stressors and what would it look like if you didn't have those stressors? And then getting into like, "Hey, what are your fears?" And what would actually happen if you had those fears? Because so often we stop at that first one. Like, "God. I don't want to lose my house." And like you know that you don't want to lose your house. You know that that would be an undesirable outcome maybe, but you don't like – you're not really considering what would happen or how that would happen. You just don't want it to happen.  

And probing a little bit further can really diffuse so much of that immediate tension. But it's so easy to pass that over and just default think like, "Yeah, of course, I don't want to lose my house." I'll just put that on the worry list. Yeah, it's a worry. But how would you actually address it? 

Lauren Grau: I'm working with a leader right now who went into a leadership position. He's a people manager now like after being years as an individual contributor. He's an engineer. And values work comes up a lot in this too, which is what just triggered me. Something you said is that – he's in this leadership position and he's like been in it for maybe a little over a year. And he's like, "I think I made the wrong call. It doesn't feel right. I don't know what to do. I have so much loyalty to my manager. He's a great manager. I've heard there aren't great managers out in the world. And so, what do I do?"  

And if you think about you know some of the conversations that he and I have had, it's like, "Okay. You're staying the leadership position because you value things like financial stability." He's got a really nice wage and is compensated well. And he really values growth. It was one of his top 10 values. And so, the promotional opportunity was calling his name and it just felt like he wanted to learn more things.  

But when we looked at kind of some of the task-related, skill-related knowledge type things that are happening in his world, he's like thinking about former days as an individual contributor when you get to check off boxes really nicely, you know? You have very clear expectations. You have these certain things you have to do and markers to be met. And then I get to do them and I feel great. And I have a sense of pride about it. And I love that. And as a leader, it's not that way all the time, right? Leading lots of change in people. Like all these –  

Cristina Amigoni: It shouldn't be at least. If it is, you're not leading. You're doing.  

Lauren Grau: Yeah. Great point. And so, then you kind of have to – this guy is asking himself, "What's more important right now?" Am I consciously choosing to just ride this out? Keep going? See if I continue to dislike it? Or do I make a change and then I give up everything that I've worked to get to? Yeah. No wrong choices though is the way that I see it. There's nothing you can do wrong. If you're following, your – there's a cheesy – I'm going to read this to you. Is that okay?  

This is from You Are A Badass. Did you ever read that book? I'm sure you've heard of it. Jen Sincero. This is like one of those pull calendars that every day has a quote. And this is just from yesterday, "There's no right or wrong. There's just tuning in to the compass that is your heart and heading in the direction that it's pointing you." 

Alex Cullimore: That's a great quote.  

Lauren Grau: And when I think about that, it's like, "Yeah, I've got this intuitive hit to make a change. I don't know exactly where it's going to lead me. But if I'm following my gut, then usually it ends up landing in a good place." Don't you think? 

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. The gut always knows. The gut is reacting to whatever. We can justify however we want. But, unfortunately, that means we can justify working against our gut sometimes too. And that's usually where so many regrets end up coming from, at least for me in my experience. I feel like that's what – not going with the gut ends up being incredibly painful.  

But it really takes a little while to listen to your gut and figure out which voice is like kind of an immediate impulse or moving away from something just because it feels unpleasant versus something that's like really a calling that you want to move towards or something that you really – really is important to you. It's one of the reasons I love some of the values work. And I'm curious if you have thoughts on that in terms of especially in transition. How to navigate knowing what are – I guess, what's the gut and what is just twitches in the gut?  

Lauren Grau: I don't know if I've found the solution to that yet or the perfect way to solve for it. It's awfully hard. But something that we all talked about last week when using values for decision-making if you remember is trying to keep in mind that this choice is just the choice that I'm making right now. This change that I'm considering. Maybe the thing that is coming up for me is you're going to have to be able to grapple with some level of acceptance around the outcomes. Some level of detachment from what actually happens as a result of making this change.  

Of course, we want ideal outcomes. But just when you're going with a gut decision and if you've done this reflective work to make a more informed choice, which is really what it's all about, is gathering all this information about yourself and about what's out there. And then feeling a little bit more confident about making your choice. Even if it went terribly wrong, then you could make another choice then and honor a different set of values then.  

Because the reality is we're always making choices all day long, all lifelong. And so, whatever feels most present, which is hard for people that are visionaries and like to do long-term planning. That's another kind of rut I think that I see quite a bit in people is like they want to have this control over the whole outline of time. And it's hard to let go of that and just choose what feels like the next best thing.  

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I like that you brought up the long-term planning piece. Because it can definitely be paralyzing. And there's so much talk out there and pressure out there to like, "What's your five-year plan? What's your 10-year plan? What's your one-year plan?" Whether individually as a person or even as a business.  

And the reality is like I have no idea what's going to happen in 5 years. I don't know where the world is going to be. I don't know what I'm going to be liking in five years. What kind of impact we would be doing or we want to be doing? And so, I was very validated in my refusal to have 5, 10, 15-year plans or even three-year plans for that matter. Because when I listened to a podcast with Adam Grant, and he was talking to the founder of Whole Foods, who no longer works at Whole Foods because he sold it to Amazon. But he was talking about how he never did a 5-year plan. And look at how successful he was. Because he's like, "I don't know. I don't know where the society is going to be. I don't know what people are going to need. I don't know what we're going to be wanting to do." And so he never believed in doing the five, three, five-year plans. As a company, as a very successful company founder. And so, I was like, "Yes. Thank you." Now I'm validated and I don't have to have a five-year plan.  

Lauren Grau: No looking back. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: I think that's totally true that there's just like, if you go far enough in the future, there's just way too many unknowns. You're not going to be the same person. The world's not going to be the same. Maybe a global pandemic will also come in and just show you that everything is going to be different for a little bit. There can be a thousand things that could be totally different than you expect on a long enough plan.  

And I think there's some nuance in that too, in that when you are making a step, there's still value in coming up with some of the plans and understanding the splash damage of your choices in those immediate futures, which sometimes I take that liberty of not creating plans a little too far. I don't do more granular planning that I think could potentially be helpful. But I do think that anytime I've thought or tried to come up with like a five-year plan, A, I have way more questions that will ever be answered. And nothing will be accurate about it about a week later.  

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and I think that the one thing that you can – at least that I have grounded myself on is the values. We've talked about the importance of values. And the one thing that I can say is, in five years, I will still be prioritizing living into my values. And those values may just slightly shift. Probably not hugely shift.  

I think true core values don't shift too much. Maybe how we prioritize them and how we access them shifts, but not what they are. And so, that's never going to be a different thing. I'm always going to look at integrity, and human connections and my core values as those are the values I want to live by. How that's going to be manifested? I don't know. I can't predict that.  

Alex Cullimore: I like that. It's a good distinction. 

Lauren Grau: Yeah. It's in line with that like direction philosophy from that quote, right? As long as you're just headed in the right direction, you don't have to have the whole path mapped out.  

One of my best friends just sent me an article, I've yet to read, yesterday called Stop Over Planning Your Vacation. It's ruining your trip. And that kind of like hit home for me. Because I am you know quite a planner when it comes to something like that. But just in general in life, you can't over-architect things. It kind of sucks the joy out of it all.  

Alex Cullimore: It also sets up expectations. That if you could plan all that, then it will go that way. And you could plan a hike and feel like, "Oh, yeah. I know how long it would take me to get up this. I've seen the weather report." First of all, weather could totally change. Secondly, you might not be anticipating how hungry you were that day. You didn't plan out your meal the night before. And now you're going to be more hungrier. Or, "Oh, based on whatever else, now I'm more dehydrated." Whatever it is. There are 10,000 things that can go wrong or different.  

I think that's the trick. I just used the wrong word there when I say they could go wrong. That's the problem. You can set up an expectation that things should go one way or another as opposed to, "This is what I think will happen. Here's what I will do with these steps." And give yourself the giant caveat that likely a lot of those will change. 

Lauren Grau: 1000%. Yeah. I wonder – for both of you having gone through a leap of faith, taking the risk to do what you knew you were born to do or at least for this period of time, right? Since we're talking about being open to evolution of things. What was the pivotal moment that you knew it was time? That you knew that there was nothing else to be done? That you had to do this?  

Cristina Amigoni: I would say that, through all my leaps of faith, I think every single one of them was the leap of faith that I've done through my career at least work-wise, I got disturbed. I got to the point that I was disturbed. And even though I hadn't done the value work, the values work. I wasn't clear what my value were as clear as I've been in the last four years, five years, I could tell that my body would actually tell me that it was time to go. I would either stop sleeping or I would heartburn, digestive issues.  

I would literally like wake up and feel that I was going to be miserable that day and feel like – I used to say in one of my jobs or in many of my jobs, I used to say like I'm literally killing brain cells by being here and doing this work. And so, I will get to that point of like this is no longer the life I want to live. That's it. 

I don't care what's next. I don't care if I have to start from scratch. I don't care what the financial impact is going to be. There is going to be one. And this life is no longer life. I cannot be in physical and mental pain.  

I've gotten better not getting to that point. That was the extreme. And since then, I've gotten to the point of I'm not learning anymore. That was is when I look at authenticity is one of my values that I've recognized. Part of the authenticity is the fact that we evolve. And part of authenticity is we're never the same person if we embrace growth and learning. And we can feel free to be ourselves, which is a completely different self every second of the day because of the learning.  

And so, when I look at that, I'm bored. If I'm bored and there's no way in this role, in this job, in this company for me to be doing something different that I can learn, then I'm out. Then it's time to go. I didn't answer the question about Siamo, but I answered the question about the 20 years before that.  

Alex Cullimore: I like that answer. I would agree with a ton of that. I think that, a lot of times, decisions, particularly around like career changes. Or I guess before careers, it was like major changes in college, or something, or choosing a college, or whatever was the choice de jure. I think that, in the past, it had been a lot more driven by some of that disturbance. Some of that feeling of like I can't do this anymore.  

I usually have beaten myself with the consequences of what I would have to do or what just probably going to be. Got a financial hit, or I have to go try this, or I have to do these things, or I don't think I can do that, or I don't know what was going to be there. And that would stop me for long enough until eventually the overwhelming feeling was like, "I can't not do this. I don't really care whether that –" and I liked how you said it, Cristina, because it's definitely related to the like I don't care what the consequences are anymore. I just have to make this change."  

And that has been replaced over time with a lot more calm about these things for one. Not just roiling discomfort. And, yeah, with the caveat that there are definitely moments that I get trapped in my own limiting beliefs and suck on things for sure. It's not a cure all, but I'm a lot better now at seeing what might need to change and being much more open to the opportunities.  

Because the other thing that has happened a few times has been I'll have an itch to want to do something that I know I want to do this. When I moved to New York, we'd known that we wanted to leave Denver and go to one of the coasts for a while. And we particularly were interested in New York. And then, out of nowhere, we kind of got this opportunity from a friend of Rachel's family who they were like moving to New York and needed roommates. And we're like, "Yeah, absolutely." If you're listening for that, it's easier to take those opportunities. So that when they come up, if you count on that, then it's going to take a long time to make those changes.  

And I think that was similar for Siamo. I knew I wanted to jump over. I knew I wanted to get going into it. And there were a lot of other financial considerations at the time of like, "Okay. Well, I'm currently helping with like the whole household. I can't just jump up out of jobs. I don't know what – I couldn't keep working at the job I was at before." And so, I still took a kind of iterative job before I went full-time on Siamo.  

And when it was time, it was time. And there was the opportunity. We had enough of a client. And it was like, "Yeah, I don't know how all the pieces are going to land. But this is enough that the threshold had been passed." And it was easy to just make – easy, in that there was still like some doubts and like kind of figure some things out. You feel a little bit uneasy walking into it. But enough felt comfortable. I'd done enough clarity for myself of what I would need immediately and with the hope that there would be growth in the near future. We had enough prospects landed that we were like, "Okay. I think this can happen." And so, when those opportunities are available and you've already been looking for them, it's a lot easier to jump on them in my experience.  

Cristina Amigoni: What about you, Lauren?  

Lauren Grau: Well, I relate a lot to what Alex is saying. I love that we're kind of identifying all the different ways that you could know like that it's time. Because I think like we were saying in the beginning, many people hang on for a really long time before even thinking about anything different.  

And so, you literally had physical symptoms. Your body was rejecting your current situation. You also highlighted boredom. Boredom is a huge – I think it's a flag. It's an indicator to pay attention to. And then what I meant to say when I'm relating to Alex's, it's like almost intuitive. As long as you're listening and just like trusting that this is the right thing, which I realize sounds a little ethereal. It's like hard to just trust your gut or follow your intuition. But it was kind of that just like of a knowing.  

I loved my job. I had been in that job and worked with this organization before I became a coach for six years and felt so deeply connected to them. I just knew it wasn't the thing I was meant to be doing. And it was like what else am I supposed to be doing? I'm not really sure. It's just not this.  

And so, going through all that reflective type work, and exercises and being spat out some results around using your intuition and coaching was like a specific skill set that came out of that. And I'm just trusting that if it feels right. The things are lining up for you. That it's time.  

I mean, the whole reason that I'm so passionate about this and I love working with people around this specific topic is – this is kind of a cliche perspective, but we spend most of our time at work. At least in America, we're expected to work. Traditionally, people work eight hours a day. That's the third of your day for most of the days of your week.  

And so, I think it's really important to like what you're doing. And while I don't know that a dream job exists, because it's still a job. And there will always be facets of having to work for income that are difficult or hard, I think that you can nail it a little bit closer than many people are currently. I think that there is a way to kind of get most of the boxes checked.  

Cristina Amigoni: I believe a dream job exists. I believe that the definition of dream job is what may stop ourselves from calling it that. If the definition includes it's always easy, there's never hardship, things are always handed to you, you never have heartaches, you never have to make hard decisions or have difficult conversation, then, no, the dream job doesn't exist.  

But if you include those as part of the reality and that choice of, "If I had a choice to not be doing this, would I choose that?" And the answer is, "Heck, no?" That's your dream job.  

Lauren Grau: Love that. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I like that clarification. I think there are just like tedious parts of any work that will still have to get done. And that's fine. But it really is. I think goes – but for me, it goes back to like some of that purpose. And sometimes I wonder. This is very much like, obviously, my view being projected onto the world here. I am going to put that massive piece of solid caveat on this.  

But I wonder – given that it would have to be really tied to what individually really matters to you, I wonder how possible it is to do that without basically starting your own kind of thing. If there's maybe a mission that exists, I suppose, like something that you really are connected to. Maybe you can work with a company that happens to be working in that and that would feel just as fulfilling. But I'm curious like how easy it would be to get into your own personal values and be able to live them as fully as we might want to if you don't have enough say in everything that's happening.  

And to that end, in Siamo, sometimes we have say. Sometimes we have things we want to get through and sometimes things we just need to get through. And it's not like 100% of the time. But we do, at the end of the day, have the ability to be like, "Okay. Well, we're going to change direction a little bit."  

And so, I wonder how much of that – and it requires – if you're going to work with other people – Cristina and I have luckily been lucky with this one. But we will let ourselves have the room to do that, and explore that and find the new expression of that, which goes back to the idea of like how much can you do unless you have enough say in what's happening to help align yourself with all the values that will be important and that you want to see delivered? I'm just throwing that out as a total curiosity. I'm sure there are ways, but I'm currently not imagining enough of them outside of my own experience. 

Cristina Amigoni: I'll let Lauren take that one. 

Lauren Grau: Well, I like the question and thought because it's another reminder that a career transition doesn't have to be something dramatic. It doesn't have to be like you're changing industries altogether or you're changing level of responsibility altogether. I think maybe what you're suggesting is that there can be – as long as you have you're given some empowerment and say, there can be some changes within the same exact role that you're in right now that you can advocate for.  

If you're not working on all of the tasks that excite you or are challenging your skill sets, being able to get really clear on what it is you would want to be doing or add to your job description and asking for that. You don't have to make a humongous leap, but just having the information about what is causing that dissatisfaction or distress can be really helpful to be able to make a clear ask of how to create a change within where you're at in this exact same spot. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I love that answer. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I really like that answer. Because it also applies in whatever you're doing. You have to do that all the time. You have to be looking for those things and doing that. That's just a great practice to get into regardless. And I think that is the way you start to shape any piece of life and any piece of work to fit better with values is continually asking yourself that and finding ways to advocate for yourself to find those opportunities. Because I think there are definitely – there are a lot more than it feels like sometimes in a job, especially if you are well-liked by the team. I think people like want to help you develop or want to help you be happy and want to keep you around at the very least. And so, there's usually opportunities for that. It's a great exercise to continually ask yourself like, "What can make this better? What would be more alignment in this role and in another role or whatever?" How would I know it's out of alignment and I need to go make a bigger change? And what do I want to try first?"  

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. That was actually a big reason why my very first job that I've ever had, I got spoiled because I actually – it was a dream job. And so, then I expected all jobs to be like that. And I was like, "Why is that not happening everywhere else?"  

A big part was the boss I had at the time recognized my need for constant learning and how bored I would get once I knew something. And so, I was 19-years-old, 20-years-old. I didn't have the experience of having success in asking what I wanted, but I did anyway.  

And so, I would say like, "Hey, I want to do this next. I'm bored this one." And so, he would give me that role." And like, "Okay. I want to do this next." And so, I ended up actually having every single role that existed in the camp every summer. Because I would do something for three weeks and I'd be like, "Andrew, I need something else. I want to be a group leader. Okay, now I want to be an English teacher. Okay, now I want to be the program director. Okay, now I want to be this."  

And so, he gave me the opportunity. He learned that that was my authentic self before I even knew it. And he recognized that he would get way more out of me in a good way, not in a manipulative way, if he actually gave me that freedom to learn and do. As opposed to say like, "No. You are 19. And you can only be an assistant counselor. And that's it. Until you're 21, there is no changing anything."  

He knew that I would not have gone back and I would not have given what I was giving to the kids there and the other counselors. And so, having that freedom is a big thing. And just that courage to just say, "I'm bored. Can I do something else? This is what I want to do? I like their job. Can I do their job?" And I wasn't great at all of them. I mean, he knows which ones. And I know which ones. We're like, "Maybe not too long. Let's move you out of that one."  

Lauren Grau: You had a great boss, I think?  

Cristina Amigoni: I did. He was a great boss. Yes. And then I learned that that's not how easily it works in corporate settings. Because in corporate settings I was like, "I'm bored." And they're like, "Well, that's your job. Suck it up." Like, "Okay. I'm out then. Okay." Then my next question is like, "Then I quit."  

Lauren Grau: I love that you were also paying attention to what other people were doing to get inspiration. I'm a huge fan of informational interviews for that reason. There is a job title that you're kind of curious about. Find people that are doing it and ask for some time with them.  

I think that most people like talking about themselves or at least what they do and especially if they enjoy doing it. But even if they don't, right? Because what a nice opportunity to vent. But like I think that some people are afraid to ask for 20 minutes of time or 30 minutes of time from a stranger. I'd say go for it anyway. Just kind of, again, gather information about if there are jobs out there that you're interested in. Ask people that are doing them what they think about it and if they have any advice for you. That can be a good source of inspiration. 

Alex Cullimore: I love that idea. I think that the idea of like I'll just put 20 minutes on somebody's calendar. Like it feels not intrusive. You're like, "I just want 20 minutes. I just want – maybe I can – I won't take too much of your time." But once you get somebody talking about what they do or what they like or don't like about it, unless there is an actual like something they have to get to, 20 minutes will probably end up being too short." They'll want to talk a lot more. They'll want to say more. As long as you stay curious and they can be open, it tends people like to have that chance and you're giving them an opportunity to get to reflect as well.  

You get a lot out of talking about what you do as well too. Because you can reflect on, "Hey, this is what I do like about this." Or they might notice something about the job you don't even think about. You're doing them a service as well. So there's just some ideas on reframes. Because I've definitely had those moments where I'm like, "I wouldn't want to reach out to people." But if I really think about it, people like that and generally would take a lot more time than we feel like we're like stealing from them like saying, "Oh, just 20 minutes."  

Lauren Grau: They want to help. Most people feel really good about helping, right?  

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.  

Alex Cullimore: It's got that like non-selfless or that selfish benefit. 

Cristina Amigoni: For the most part, people want to help. So true. Yeah, I think it really goes back to values. What's made it much clearer, much easier for me in the last 4 years, every decision, it goes back to values. And so, the time to misery has shortened a lot. And also, the intensity of the misery has shortened a lot. I'm now able to quickly recognize when something is not aligning with my values. And so, then the decision is very clear. If it's temporary and it's small, fine. Let's stick out. If it's not, we're out. I'm too old to waste time that way. 

Lauren Grau: YOLO.  

Cristina Amigoni: Too old to just be in a place that's just not going to align. It's just not. And being very clear with your values is what matters. It's not easy. And it's not easy to do the work for sure. It takes a long time.  

It's also not easy especially when you do have a business with somebody else. Because I remember when we were going through the exercise with you last week, Lauren, part of my worry was like, "What if I come up with values that are completely different from Alex? What do we do as a business?" Because that's not going to work out. If we're not aligned in our values, that's going to impact the business and our success and what we can do.  

Alex Cullimore: I realized that I hate people.  

Lauren Grau: You hate people. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. This is a new divergence for us around to reconcile this vast – now what did you find?  

Cristina Amigoni: Well, between the values exercise and the branding one with Lynn, I think I found out that we're like 99% aligned. And then 1% is like, "Oh, yeah. That one too. I want that one. I'm taking it and add it to my list."  

Lauren Grau: Copying.  

Cristina Amigoni: I think we're fine. 

Lauren Grau: Okay.  

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. We're just fine.  

Cristina Amigoni: Lauren, what helped you go through the unknowns, and the fear and the worst-case scenarios of transitions?  

Lauren Grau: Well, I have a husband who's a financial planner. And so, he made me get real clear on the logistical side of that. And so, what I mean by that is if it is a big transition that you're considering and it would potentially have an impact on your lifestyle or financial situation, get some numbers around that.  

And I know this sounds like a simple suggestion, but you'd be surprised at how many people don't have a budget or just aren't really clear on how much they need to make to match their expenses and things like that. Just being able to understand what you might want to save. Or depending on what the change is that you're considering, just getting some data around what it would look like for you can help you feel a little bit more brave and prepared. It also might shatter your dreams. And that's okay too. At least you know then but just doing some thinking around things like that.  

I mean, I think that the book that I mentioned, What Colors is Your Parachute? And I'm sure there are plenty of other resources like that one. But there are resources out there that can really help with clarity. And I think clarity breaks down fear. I think that clarity can bring a great deal of confidence and understanding. That's what helped me a lot.  

And then that woo-woo, foo-foo, not real thing that we talked about. Your intuition. Just being able to listen and kind of is this the right thing? Whatever kind of spirituality you engage with, ask them, "Is this the right move?" Be able to understand if it just feels right in your body.  

Alex Cullimore: Any other takeaways you'd want people to walk away with if they're considering transitions or worried about them? 

Lauren Grau: And I'm hoping by listening to our conversation. This is obvious. But I think one of the key things I want to make known is that you're not alone in this. This is a really common experience. This is a really everyday frequent challenge you probably don't realize how many people in the world are considering a change. 

And so, that can in and of itself help you feel a little bit more normalized and a little bit less scared. Because not only are they considering it, but they've done it. There are lots and lots of people that have considered a change and have made a change and like survived. And some of it looked really messy, and some of it looked really perfect and some of it somewhere in between. There's a whole range of what it could look like. But you're not alone in that. That's what I would want people to know.  

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great advice. And I would add, hire a coach. We are very talented at getting in our own way. We will talk ourselves into and out of pretty much anything. And that's what a great coach really helps with is you just can't – if you have a great coach, you can't get away with your own ways, your own blocks. They'll read through it in a minute and poke at it until you actually want to address it. It's still a choice, but it's much harder when you are verbalizing the blocks that you know are your own blocks that you're creating in your head.  

Alex Cullimore: And just as a caveat to not make that sound too scary to face, coaches are good at detecting those blocks and curiously probing at them. It's not the same thing as just like poking a sore spot over and over and over again. It's not going to be like – it may be uncomfortable to do the facing. But coaches, at least really good coaches, leave that space for this is just what I'm noticing. I've noticed that you might be coming against this block. Whatever ways they might want to address this. Things like that. Just being a little bit more open to it, which can be helpful just to have the space to actually process the things we're already worried about. Because coaches can be really good at identifying those and then helping us know that whether we're kind of on track with whether we are addressing the real core blocks that may be getting in our way.  

Cristina Amigoni: Good caveat.  

Lauren Grau: Yeah.  

Alex Cullimore: I'm just out here poking all the sore spots and making people feel –  

Cristina Amigoni: This button. No. That button. This button. They almost guide you to push your own button and see how far – do you really want to pretend there's not a button there? Until you make the choice. Like, "Okay. Yes, there's a button. Now let's resolve it. I'm tired of that button."  

Lauren Grau: And that hiring a coach really can help expedite the whole process, don't you think? Because it's like I'm sure most people can figure this out on their own, especially with great resources like What Color is Your Parachute? And it might just take a whole lot longer.  

And when it comes to creating change in your life, and this applies to a transitional career change or professional change, I think having the momentum can be really helpful.  

I heard a really disappointing statistic. And I might have already shared this with you guys because it's something that just still irks me. But something about how 90% of our thoughts are thoughts that we had yesterday. And when I heard that, it was so jarring. It was some high number.  

Cristina Amigoni: That's depressing. 

Lauren Grau: I know. And when I think about that, it's like that cyclical thinking. I think I was disappointed because I was like, "Really? There's not enough to think about that we just keep repeating things?" But I would say, when you know that there's something to shift in your, life like changing something about your job as we're talking about, and you don't take any action around it, it just sits there. Because it's going unaddressed. And it's feeling unheard. And so, it keeps coming back up and repeats the same message. Like, "How long are you going to stay here for? Is this the right job for you?" And thoughts like that just keep repeating themselves. And it can be helpful to have a coach in that way, is to just kind of do the work. Get over the hump. Stay where you're at. Make a change. Whatever. At least you kind of took some responsibility for the redundancy and rumination, right?  

Cristina Amigoni: I love that. Because that's when I know I need a coach actually. As a coach, that's when I know I can resolve it by myself is when I have the same internal dialogue in the shower every single morning for more than three days. And for three mornings, I always wondered, "Did I wash my hair? Did I not wash my hair? I forgot if I shaved. Let me shave again."  

When I start noticing, like, "Okay, this happened yesterday too. It's time for me to actually get a coach and talk this out. Because I'm not resolving it on my own." My hair is overstressed by shampoos. That's when it's time.  

Alex Cullimore: Or under-stressed. One of the two. 

Cristina Amigoni: or under-stressed. Or I have very greasy hair because I keep thinking I washed it and I didn't.  

Alex Cullimore: As another thought, Lauren, we asked you this before. It was now like a couple years ago. I'm curious if anything has changed. What is your definition of authenticity?  

Lauren Grau: Authenticity feels like no filters to me. That's the phrase that comes up. There are no filters especially in the day and age of taking photos with filters. It just feels like following your intuition. Following your gut. Doing the thing that is calling to you and repeating over and over in your head again, but that you're ignoring and not paying attention to. Authenticity feels like you're tuning into that.  

Cristina Amigoni: I love that.  

Alex Cullimore: It's great definition. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. great definition. And where can people find you?  

Lauren Grau: Well, you can find me on growthandgumption.com is the website. Growth and Gumption is how I signed my resignation letter when I left my job. In Growth and Gumption, bye-bye. Growthandgumption.com.  

And on that website is buttons all over to schedule time with me. I'd say that's always my favorite way to connect with people is just get on the calendar. And I love to chat about anything that's on your mind. What you're struggling with? What the challenges you're facing? If you're considering working with a coach. I like just to talk to people about what they would think about hiring a coach for. I'm also on LinkedIn under Lauren Grau, Lauren J. Grau. Those are the best places.  

Cristina Amigoni: And we'll definitely have those in the show notes so everybody can find them. 

Lauren Grau: Thank you. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you, Lauren. And thank you, everyone, for listening.  

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Thank you. Great conversation as always. 

[OUTRO] 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast.  

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood.  

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review, and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts.  

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O. 

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human. 

[END]