Leadership in the Siamoverse with Alex and Cristina

EPISODE 12

“Cristina Amigoni: The path is not my path, and so the end of the path or even the journey on the path is not the way that it's in my head. It's not my script. My role as a leader is to enable others to go on their path so that they can get to the end. And yes, there's a vision at the end, but also, that vision can't be limited to just my vision.”

[INTRODUCTION]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives.

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that’s with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves.

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni.

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore.

Hosts: Let's dive in.

Authenticity means freedom.

Authenticity means going with your gut.

Authenticity is bringing a 100% of yourself. Not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.

Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.

It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.

Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.

It's transparency, relatability, no frills, no makeup, just being.

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human today. It's just Cristina and I and we wanted to talk about one of our favorite subjects. It's basically what we spent all of our time doing and thinking about, what is leadership. What is leadership according to us, anyway.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, this is very much of a leadership according to Siamo.

Alex Cullimore: The world according to Garp, but leadership,

Cristina Amigoni: Then we'll do the world according to Siamo, which already exists because we have been named as the Siamoverse. So leadership in the Siamoverse.

Alex Cullimore: Understanding as your ticket to entry for the Siamoverse. Where to start on this one?

Cristina Amigoni: Empathy.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Empathy is a good place to start, honestly, as leadership. When you think leadership, what are the first things that start to come to your mind?

Cristina Amigoni: Interestingly enough, what comes to mind to me is all the things that are not leadership, or people may think they are signs of leadership, but they're actually not. So some of the pressing ones are having to get all the credit, or even some of the credits, or the credit at all, needing credit for things to be done. That's not leadership according in the Siamoverse, at least. Being able to actually let go of needing to be recognized for the work that was done by you, or your teams or other people. It's probably one of the biggest releases of leadership, as sometimes we think about it. I think, ironically enough, the more you let go, the more you actually get the credit, and you get recognized as a leader, because that's not your goal. 

I think I read it recently, and I've heard it somewhere where if the ego comes into play when you're thinking of yourself as a leader, then you're not a leader, you're already failing. Because it really isn't about yourself. It's about how you can empower others. If I were to describe or define leadership, I would say, it's lifting others. By lifting others, then they are going to go – they could go beyond you. That's the whole point, is to be a leader. Also, leadership is not – and we've talked about this a lot. It's not something that you self-proclaim. You're called a leader, you don't call yourself a leader. We rarely called ourselves leaders, but we've heard others call us leaders in certain situations.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. When you say call yourself a leader, it brings to mind images like North Korea, or something like the Supreme Leader. Is that it or does everybody just dictated to have to follow this? It just kind of feel dictatorial if you're going to be the one saying you're a leader, if you're going to accomplish it, you think you're accomplishing it by virtue of having a title. It's very different than the – actually, like other people that are following you. You're just exuding that you are helping other people. And by virtue, people will follow you. 

I think that, sometimes that gets confusing because the word leader, it sounds like, you're out front, you're setting the vision. People will be walking behind you. Ultimately, it's making sure that people have what they need to be walking the path that they are on, which is very different kind of mindset. It's not that you aren't also in charge of looking ahead, and trying to set the vision, and you're trying to help people understand where they should be walking to. But it's not you out front doing it. If that was the case, then you're one of the people also doing that. Then you might be looking for that credit, you might want to be the first person there. But that's not the pursuit, and that's not what leadership will actually kind of reward you for. 

To your point, you get the credit when you let go of that. You start to see when you don't need it to be about you. And when you get the reward, and the dopamine boost by helping other people, that's where you can really kind of settle into leadership, and find your footing, and just make those strategic visionary decisions and push for something that is necessary, and not something that you just feel like you need to accomplish because of what you were told.

Cristina Amigoni: I would definitely agree. I think another piece that always comes to mind. There is an element of doing in leadership. I mean, it's not that it's not there. However, when you're focusing so much on doing, that you're not leading. We can multitask. So if we look at what we do in that way, if I'm the one actually doing the work, then I'm not leading the team, or the peers by enabling them to do the work. Again, there's still an element of doing tasks. The vast majority of the time to be a leader is leading. It should be leading others. When it's not, then that's when we – I would say, probably at the core is, where's the ego or where's the system in that case? Is it the system that's in need? Is it the ego of that need for my name to be attached with something that gets finished and recognized? Or is it something else? What's preventing me from leading?

I remember, in previous lives, working with a team. When the team was self-sufficient and working by themselves, and they were the ones recognizing, that's when I felt I was a successful leader. If you don't know that I exist, and they succeeded, that is my success.

Alex Cullimore: That, I think, is the big difference because it's really the mindset of – when you talk about like putting your name on something that is completed, if that's your intention, and the important part is that your name is on it, you kind of focus on the wrong things. If the important part is that the work is done, you may end up being the leader and the one that gets the credit anyway. But the importance that you put on it is that this gets done, and then you enable the people to do that. Your name can still be on it. It's not that everybody likes recognition, it's not to not want recognition. It's just that if that's the goal, you're mostly almost certainly going to miss the point of being the leader in this situation.

Cristina Amigoni: As we said, initially, ironically enough, the least amount of effort you put in having your name there, and being recognized, the more recognition you get. Because people will turn to you, and then there's a new path. They will come to you when they want to brainstorm, they'll come to you when they have a question, they'll come to you. That's when you know you're actually leading, is when, they're not coming to you because they were told to, because your name is attached to something. But they come to you because they trust you. You're reliable, you answer.

One of my biggest pet peeves that I'm sure we've talked about in the past more than once is the non-response. When people send out an email or a message, the very least, it's not about having the answer. It's not about making a decision. When somebody sends a message out, respond that you've got the message. That's all the reply that's needed, is to reply, "Got the message. I'll be working on this. Got the message, I'll be consulting with so and so. Got the message." But that I think is one of the biggest signs of a successful leader, an actual leader. Big capital all letters LEADER. Leader that responds.

Alex Cullimore: What comes to mind as you're saying that is that, these behaviors are all exhibited based on a core mindset. That's a great example of a behavior. That means that you're in touch, and you're trying to support and understand the people that you're leading. You are responding, you know what it might feel like not to have a response, you just want to help closing that loop, whether you have the answer there or not. And knowing that it's your responsibility in the enablement of those people to find some of those answers, or to help connect them to people who can provide those answers, whatever it is. I think that's a great behavior that is the result of having the mindset, where you are there to enable the success of the overall team. That is the goal of leadership.

I think that's one of the things it's so confusing when you get promoted into leadership out of an individual contributor role, where you're like, "I did really, really well at this." Now, I've been given "More responsibilities." But nobody explains that that responsibility is making sure everybody else can do that work now, not you. You're not the one doing it anymore. That's a hard transition for good reason. You spent a lot of time building those skills. Your identity is somewhat wrapped up in having those skills.

Now, your job is to help other people use those skills, so you can maybe help develop those. But ideally, assuming you're not short-handed, you're only stepping in to do the work when it was really necessary. Other than that, you're trying to connect the pieces so everybody else can get that work done well and efficiently. You should then have a wider view, and that's how you can get more and more responsibility and larger focus is that understanding that wider and wider view, which you're now responsible for, and you can't be responsible for the wider view and fixing every one of the details.

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed, and that takes a lot of letting go. The transition that you just mentioned, is a very difficult transition. It's a huge transition, it's a very difficult one, one that I would hardly recommend somebody do with a coach, because it is very hard. You're letting go of your identity. There is an identity attached to being a contributor, and doing, and being recognized for doing. Then having to step into a position where as I said, like if you don't know I existed, and this worked, I succeeded, but there's a part of how do I exist then? Then, what if I don't get seen in some other ways, what if I don't get recognized, we definitely need that, and it's a must. That's also how you then get more responsibility, or move into different positions. Because the recognitions happen, it's just not quite as obvious as it used to be.

It's not about checking off boxes in a task list, and then getting to your annual performance review, and like, "Check out all the things I did." How about all the people you helped, and what they did? What was accomplished by the people you helped? Then, you're succeeding as a leader.

Alex Cullimore: It's hard to get that. Part of those jobs can be working with other people. You might have to go work with a different team. They might not even be the people who would know are "reporting to you" or are going to report what you have done or haven't done. But it's still an important part of the job to help them coordinate with your team so that your team, again, can accomplish what they need to do. If you want to be the leader of something like that, you have to put those dots together, and you're not going to get that direct recognition. That's a hard transition as well, because that's not something you're going to go put on a performance review, it's not easily quantifiable, usually.

We're so used to at this point, the easy quantifiable metrics, they don't really exist in that space. Are the other people succeeding? It's ambiguous as to where you were instrumental in helping that sometimes. You try and create the environment as best as possible for people to grow and thrive. If it's going well, aren't going to be immediately noticeable or called out. There'll be times when you stand up for your team, and defend them, and they might recognize that, and there are other times when you're just making sure that communication barriers are knocked down, that walls and silos are knocked down, and other answers are provided. You've tried to get the clarity that to help them. Those are all actions that will take all of your time, and take a lot of mental efforts, and may not feel like the same level of finishing tasks that it felt like before you might have been promoted into something like that.

Cristina Amigoni: It is a very tough place to be. It's a tough transition. I find it extremely rewarding. I think I find that once you get there and you realize, you can let go of the tangibles, you can let go of the credit, the recognition, your name being at the bottom of the email, or at the bottom of the communication, or at the top, anywhere. It's very liberating. Then the mindset shift to watch others flourish, I find it very addictive. Also flourish in their own ways, that's another piece that I've learned the hard way, through lots of heartaches. To let go is that the path is not my path. The end of the path, or even the journey on the path is not the way that it's in my head. It's not my script.

My role as a leader is to enable others to go on their path so that they can get to the end. And yes, there's a vision at the end. But also, that vision can be limited to just my vision. It's got to be big enough that it's a goal, it's a vision, but it's not that detailed, because we don't quite know what's going to happen when we get there and how we're going to get there. That's a big step too, but I find that extremely rewarding. To keep that curiosity, to watch things change, to watch people transform without a set script on where they're supposed to be transforming to or who they're supposed to be transforming into. Because the job is to enable the transformation, not to dictate the transformation. It's addictive.

Alex Cullimore: I think to that end, it requires that mindset, and that can be learned. I think you can learn to start to appreciate some of that enabling of people, start to see that they've grown into something, and get that addictive success out of seeing that people flourish and find their own path. It's definitely a matter of finding your own path, especially in the modern work world, everybody has to have their own kind of expertise, and they bring something that's totally new and different. Everything's changing all the time, you need all of those perspectives, and you need them to be able to speak up. So you better be able to like help them find their own path. That's going to be the one.

As right as we can feel like we are, as we can feel like we have the right path forward, we still need all those other inputs. Even if we were right this time, the next time, we're going to need other people's input. The next time, we're going to need this. If we've shut them down before, now, we're not getting there. So you have to be playing this larger and larger game. So I think it helps a lot just to be in that mindset of helping people find their own path, because then, you have a team that can go be dynamic, and flourish, and do the things that need to be done.

I wonder sometimes if it's a specific personality that you're kind of more born with, where you get that understanding, or if it's something that can be more learned. My instinct tells me it's a little of both, you might have a leaning, and there's the ability to learn it over time. I think that's what you have to develop if you want to be able to sustain that level of leadership or grow that level of leadership.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I've always wondered about that. Is it something you're born with, or something you learn? I think it's both. I think there's a tendency to be givers, to have an infinite mindset, and there's a lot of practice to hone it, and just constantly do it. Because I think that's also the other – the other piece that it's underestimated, at least I underestimated it, is the fact that being a leader is every minute of the day. It's not a title. You don't get little reward. You don't put it on your wall, or get a medal, or anything like that. It's every minute of the day, every action, and every inaction that you do demonstrate whether you're a leader or not, will help people look at you as a leader or not. It's interesting. It's interesting to sit in the back and still be recognized as a leader.

Because again, it's not about where you are, it's not the physical presence of the position you're in. It's how you support people, and can they rely on you. So letting go of that, its personality, I think has a lot to do with it. Also, learning to do it over, and over, and over, and over, and over if that's what you want. Not everybody needs to be a leader.

Alex Cullimore: I think that's the one part that we need to correct in the working world. It's like, this idea that you get promoted, and you're a leader, and that's the one path forward. Is basically be a leader of people. It's just this mindset, and this like enabling of people, it works for people that want to do that. They can be really successful and influential at helping it if they have that, that mindset of helping the people, seeing the larger picture, continuing to connect it to, and continually reinforcing everybody on their path. To your point, that's not – that doesn't mean that has to be of interest to everybody. That's just what we in the Siamoverse, according to leadership, according to Siamo world would say makes you successful in the leadership position. There's no need for that to be what you get out of this.

But if you want to be a successful leader, or what you have to become, if you wanted to become a successful leader, you'd probably have to embody some of these mindsets to be successful at that. It's okay not to want that, and we need to find paths for people not to feel like they have to be a leader, to advance, to grow, to learn. If you want to learn that skill, great, absolutely, jump in. Do your best to kind of be curious, stay open, and understand that these dynamics we're talking about, about lack of recognition and gaps, and just knowing that you could have to set that larger vision and continually grow people. Absolutely go learn and develop those skills. I just wish there were more paths forwards. People didn't feel like that was the only thing they had to do. Everybody is necessary.

Part of that leadership job is understanding that all of the different ways that people engage in work, the different ways they can provide their expertise, and unlocking the maximum ability for them to deliver that is the job of the leader. That's all different paths. So let people have that other path. Let them – if they're really excellent at strategic thinking, and they suck at delivering that, find a way for them to maybe flourish in that without having people that they have to maybe manage or immediately connect to. Find a way for that to be valuable to people. I think it'd be really hard to only think about strategy in a vacuum, as if the people aren't going to be influenced your ability to deliver that.

Find those paths where there is a chance to contribute the way that you want to contribute, because these are certainly Siamoverse leadership skills. I think the ones that you'd have to develop if you wanted to be successful as a leader, just don't feel like that has to be the only path. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, definitely. Leadership is a behavior. It's not a title. It's not a business card, it's not a name at the bottom or the top of the email. It's a behavior. It's a relationship. I love the book that actually is about leadership relationship. Without other people coming to you, there's no leadership, really. You can definitely lead yourself. That's a big part of leadership is the self-leadership. But it's letting go, it's knowing that even as a titled individual contributor, you can still be a very influential, and successful leader. Because it's about the behavior. Once we embrace that, it opens up so many possibilities, it opens up way more opportunity to lead than before.

Alex Cullimore: So if you're looking for the confirmation that you can or would do it, look for those signs, because it is not about the title. I think we probably – I can definitely point to many examples in my career, both who I would reach out to and who I've been reached out by. Where I was not the leader on the team, or I was not reaching out to the leader on the team, because they were not receptive to whatever I was trying to do. But I knew somebody on the team who was, and they were happy to connect the dots, and they were happy to go make whatever conversation needed to happen happen. So I would reach out to that person, or I would be reached out to when I was not the leader on the team, because they weren't going to be able to either get a hold of it. At one of my jobs, we somewhat jokingly referred to a boss as the president, because he was so hard to get a slot on his calendar. You could just never get a piece of time. 

When you have that kind of, again, back to your idea of – the responding to people really is important. When you don't have that response, you go find the people who do, and so that person becomes the inherent leader. They're exhibiting the leadership qualities of somebody that you can rely on, somebody that you can turn to for help, somebody who's going to aid the overall process. That is entirely title agnostic. 

Cristina Amigoni: It is, yes. I think about it from a head or mind perspective. People, at least I've seen on the receiving end, also on the giving, on the following. I would say that it's about a heart, not in mind. So you don't look at people as leaders, because the mind says so, based on org charts, titles, whatever. It's a heart thing, the heart pulls you towards the people that are helping you as a leader. Those are the leaders, because that's where your heart goes. That's because, on the receiving end, it's the people that make sure that I'm seen, that I'm valued, that I'm supported. Not just when it's convenient for them, but when it's actually convenient for me.

A big part is that making sure people are heard, and meeting them where they are. If somebody is saying something, and it's requesting something, respond. Clearly passionate about the response, but not just respond as in like, "Well, yes, maybe. We'll think about it. Just evaluate. What do these people need? It's not what they need, it's not about what I think they need. It's what they need is what they're saying they need. It's that simple, actually.

Alex Cullimore: I love that Ted Lasso, first episode, he gives them the complaint box to go put things, and of course, they're making fun of him for it. But one of the things that comes through is like changing the water pressure. They said, they needed new water pressures. Goes and changes the water pressure in the showers. These are the little things that make a difference. I think we've told the story on this podcast before, but like a company that invested all kinds of money in ping pong tables, and kegs. and ways to get people to gather together.

When they finally stopped, and it wasn't working, the culture wasn't improving. When they stopped and asked people what they would want. Turns out what everybody was really frustrated by was a printer that wasn't working, and everybody needed the printers. So they spent $400 to replace that printer and productivity skyrocketed, people were happier, they were less upset, like, "You could just ask." There might be something like that, or just listen to the little things that are going on.

I think it does take that mindset, because you can think to yourself, "Well, I just need to accomplish this goal." You might look at your team and be like, "They don't seem to have the skills to do this. I could just let go of these three people and try and find those skills.” That might be successful for that particular initiative one time, but what you've sent to the rest of the team is, you're disposable. You're not going to get the engagement for people. You've shown that you don't care about their growth, and their ability to deliver on this. Then this one goal was worth sacrificing whatever to go do. So these messages you send constantly are the other best why leadership is a behavior. You have to send all of those little messages and then watch for what you're sending. Because inadvertently, put your foot in your mouth all the time, but it's about having the intention and having the desire to have those move forward in a productive way.

If you continually look at the people, they'll come and have your back, and they will find the way to go make the other things happen. That's why in the Siamoverse, it is so people-focused, it's not just because it makes people a lot happier, and we're going to reduce burnout this way. But it's also the only way to accomplish large scale goals and have that kind of influential leadership that will change the world.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I like to Siamoverse version of this. A big part of that includes our leadership, our version of leadership, mostly because of what we do, and how we do it, and who we are, is the fact that most of the times, we don't get to see the transformation. When you're in the people and teams' transformation business, you enable, hopefully, and support that transformation. Then, very likely, you'll be away. You won't be in the room when that actually happens and takes hold. That's another big piece of leadership. Going back to the beginning, is like if you're doing it for credit, you're not going to be there for the credit, because you don't know how long it's going to take to transform people.

Alex Cullimore: That's probably going to come out in all kinds of like smaller ways. We know what our measures of success are. Luckily, we've gotten to hear from clients like that, some behaviors that changed after we left or some things that are different now. We've luckily heard some of those stories. They don't necessarily even attribute them to us. We're just checking in with people, and we see the differences. We see how they're interacting totally differently than when we first engaged with them. We know there's an influence and there's an impact left there, and that was the goal. It's not to put our stamp on it. It's nice to have recognition, but that's not what's going to make it happen. What makes it happen is installing those, and instilling all those little mindsets, and seeing that change and grow. Those little behaviors that enable large scale change.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Our measure of success is space. It's not the agenda. We can't go in also as a coach. Outside of coaching is, it can't be about my agenda, and what I want to see, and how I want to see the behavior change, or how I want to see things change. It's about creating the space for people to consider doing something different. That's it. That's the measure of success. Then if you see that difference happening, great. Celebration.

Alex Cullimore: My favorite example is, when companies go out and be like, "Our teams need to trust each other." Then they just go and tell people like, we need more trust, almost inevitably, that definitely is true. Trust helps enable all kinds of things that companies are looking for. It might be an accurate diagnosis, but that's asking for like – you've just joined the soccer team, can you behave like Pele? Can you just go to that?" That's an outcome of a series of behaviors and built relationships, and that requires loyalty on both ends, and all the things that humans will respond to, to feel comfortable, let the guard down and have the trust. That is all an outcome of a series of other behaviors. It's easy enough to demand what we think should happen. 

And even if we're right, that's why it's so much for us about space, because you have to get to there. You have to have the space to know that that's what you want, to let go of all the things that are blocking you from getting there, and to find that your path forward to get to a space where you do have more of that trust, to get to a place where you can have that kind of calming, innovative mindset, whatever you were looking for. It only happens if you provide enough space for people to get there. You can't give them a tiny tunnel that's never going to fit through to get to the end result. 

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed, yes. I love that you brought up trust, because that's another big of my pet peeves, is demanding trust. Like, "Are you kidding me?" Which humans has ever trusted somebody else, because it was demanded or asked. Trust is something that, again, comes from the heart. You can't control if somebody trusts you or not. You can control how you show up to create that potential for trust. But asking for someone to trust you, it's like – I always think of JC Quintana when he talked about trust as an outcome. He compared it to Aladdin at the beginning of the Aladdin movie where he says like, "Do you trust me?" and like, "No, I just met you. I'm not going to walk on a carpet that is apparently supposed to fly." But that's what it feels like in the workplace or even outside when all we hear is, "Just trust me."

So you're basically asking me to jump off a balcony and hope that the carpet will hold me. I don't have any evidence that you will take care of me. How about you show me evidence that you will take care of me and then the trust will happen?

Alex Cullimore: I also love when trust is demanded right before the company rips the rug out from other people. We just need you to trust us through this process. Also, we're going to lay off some of your team.

Cristina Amigoni: And you're going to smash your face to the ground.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. What you're asking for is calm until you pull the rug out from under them. It's unfair to ask, and if you can't see the empathetic response that you might need here, that you can't see that people might not trust you on that one. As convenient as it would be, they're not going to be able to get there. That's when – in the Siamoverse, maybe the leadership role is not for two.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, or maybe some other things got in the way. Like ego, recognition, credit, wealth, career ladder, not leadership things. Those are not leadership outcomes. Those are ego driven outcomes. That's not an infinite game mindset. That's a finite game mindset about winning. If you're in it for winning, then don't call yourself a leader, because you're not.

Alex Cullimore: You're in it for winning. Unless you see that as like the result of the empowerment of the team.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, then declare that, that you're in it for winning. There is no judgement. Not everybody needs to be known, and successful, and influential leader. If you're in it for winning, then go in it for winning, then go win.

Alex Cullimore: That's the old saying that if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So if you want to go far, you will have to then figure out all of these little human dynamics that allow you to work together effectively with people, and it's not just, "I have a bunch of people that I've happened to hire under me, and I have enough money to pay their payrolls. Now, I am their leader, and this is –" that's not the end result. That's not how this works. The only way you get to that winning together is if you are together. That's an outcome of 10,000 behaviors, like your own reliability, your own responsibility, your own trust, your own ability to be vulnerable, and show people that they can show up, and do the things that you would hope that they can accomplish.

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed. All right. So I have one last question for us, and then we can get off our soapbox of leadership in the Siamoverse. When was the first time you thought of yourself as a leader?

Alex Cullimore: It entirely caught me by surprise. I didn't think of myself this way. I was in an acting troupe in college that was – it was a social justice theater troupe. So there were little skits that we'd have, there were around different topics like race, gender, whatever, and there would be a chance for audience members to go interact and try and change the scene a little bit. It was acting, it was improvising, it was giving people a chance to practice, having hard conversations, and the things that we inevitably see in life. We see people step on racial lines, or make insensitive comments, or treat genders differently, et cetera. 

What do you do when you notice that? Instead of being a bystander, how can you practice being a little more active with that? That was the idea. As you might imagine, in most of these scenes, if you are the White male, you're going to have to go play the antagonist a little bit. You're going to go show people set themselves, and you have to play it with kind humanity for yourself, and for that character, they are doing the best they can. It might not be the right thing to do, or it might be totally stepping on somebody else's toes. But as overall antagonist, I would always kind of joke with the people that were running the thing like, "Why do I have to keep doing this?" That, I knew, it's my role to kind of do this and help people see this, see that angle of themselves, see what can change, how to address somebody like that. And at times, let out frustration at people. who act like the people that I had portrayed.

It wasn't until the end of that, we were all kind of closing out. They would do kind of a little ceremony thing for the seniors that were leaving that year. There were a few of young guys who had joined to the troupe who are like, "I don't think you realize it, but we're all looking up to you as a role model here, because you're trying to do this in more compassionate way, and you're allowing for that space, and that ability to kind of interact with these hard topics." I hadn't thought of it. I was just trying to do the work, and trying to understand my place in it, and let go of my own ego, and feeling like, sometimes, I don't want to be the perceived bad guy in this. Now, just trying to let go of those things. 

I didn't see it until they pointed it out, that they had been looking at that as an example for how they could do this work, and how they can change that. That was the first time I think that I realized that there was some kind of other influence just by showing up and being yourself. I would help them with their roles, if they had one and stuff. It wasn't like I wasn't involved. But I'd never thought of that as, leading this, I just was on board with the overall mission of this and want to be part of it. So they ended up kind of acknowledging that later. I hadn't been again, not seeking acknowledgement, not trying to do it. It just happened by virtue of, I was dedicated to it. and they happen to respond to that. I was so wrapped up in my own experience, I didn't even notice the impact it could have on other people. Thankfully, it was a positive one.

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great story. But yes, like you said, it's like when you're not focused on influencing, and you're just being yourself, you have much higher chances to actually influence and be seen as a role model.

Alex Cullimore: That's been happening in our leadership program we've been delivering. We're the facilitators, so we're kind of in front of the room occasionally. But that's not what makes us a leader. What makes us the leader is that people continue to strive for us for what's helpful, what's useful. We're not looking to try and lead. We're not trying to make all these people one way. We're just trying to give them the space to interact with all this information. It's working well, thankfully. We get good reviews on that, and people have some space there. But I do want to turn that question back around on you as well. What's the first time you thought of yourself as a leader?

Cristina Amigoni: I would say, if I dig back, I probably had hints here and there. But the first time that comes to mind, that's very clear, it's like a photograph in my head. I know exactly – I could tell you what the weather it was like it. If I think about it close enough, I could probably tell you what I was wearing. It was in Switzerland at Village Camps. I had just started, I was 19 years old, I was an assistant counselor, because you had to be 21 to be counselor. There was just two of us assistant counselors. I was the youngest there in the staff, I guess, the staff group.

It was I think the first week or the first couple of days I was there, one of the activities was to take these group of 10-year-olds, 10- to 12-year-olds that I was in charge of or responsible for. Not in charge of, but responsible for, to play soccer down at the gym in a village. We had to wait for the bus to come pick us up, the van to come pick us up as it was doing its rounds. It was taking longer than it needed to be. But it never even occurred to me to do anything else. What I did was, think about the fact that, well, I had 10, 12, 10-year-olds, mostly boys running around. And that was not going to get us where we wanted to go as fast and efficiently as possible. So I immediately, and again, this wasn't a premeditated thing. It was just instinct.

As we were waiting, I just had everybody sit on the ground, in a circle, and decide what we're going to do when we got to the soccer field. If they were in a team, which roles they want to play in a team, who wanted to be the goalie, who wanted to be the fence, who wanted to be something else, who wanted to maybe beyond the bench first and then go in later. So I did that, and I guess, sometime past, 10, 15, 20 minutes. Then the bus arrived and we went, and we played soccer, and we came back.

My director, my first boss, my director at that point pulled me aside with also the business director. My first instinct was like, "Ugh. I'm getting fired. This is great. I lasted a week." Which is usually my first instinct when anybody says, "I want to talk to you" is I'm getting fired. So I go into their office for some I've ever get called into the office of the boss. They say how they had noticed what happened earlier that day, because their windows were facing the front parking lot where we were doing it. They had decided to promote me to being a full-fledged counselor, not an assistant counselor, and disregard the age, and the fact that I had zero experience. Besides the three days I had been there, being a counselor in camp. But there, they said that they saw what I did, and they looked at it, and they said, "You acted more as a leader and a counselor to the kids than we've seen in many people that are here in years, that are much older than you." But that was the first time that I realized, oh, maybe I was leading, I guess, but this is more of a hindsight. Like looking back, I recognize that episode as leading. At the moment, I was like, "Okay. I was just doing what made sense. To take care of the humans that I was taking care of.

Alex Cullimore: Responsible for. I think that's a really – first, great story. That's a good indicator of that and it is great. It's a behavior, it's just a mindset of like this felt right. I'm going to kind of highlight that last piece about being responsible for them. Because I think that might be a really key element of this. Feel the responsibility for your people. You're there to be responsible to them, and then being successful, and working well with each other and others. That's your responsibility. That's your purview, and that's where you can create massive change, and success, and really grease the wheels so that something can move quickly and go farther than you would have thought possible, given the individual parts. That's the fun part. That's where it becomes super addictive, but really relying and leaning on that responsibility I think is a good way of entering some of that mindset.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I love that you pointed that out, because it is that. It's the responsibility, and it's seeing the responsibility not just for people that were assigned to you. But seeing the responsibility as you as a human being to make sure that every human being around you is taken care of, most of them. In our past lives working together, most of the people that I worked with and came to me were not reporting to me. Actually, my team was really independent. They were the least people I talk to on a daily basis. I spent about 5% to 10% of my time working with my team, because they were so independent, and successful on their own.

I spent the rest of my time looking around and helping whoever needed help. Did I know their job? Absolutely not. I just got to learn what they needed. I get to hear them. I give them the space to actually share what was not working frustrating, blocking them. Then, I mostly just – for their own opinion on what should be done and then open doors if I could. Go knock down the doors with them and walk beside them. So it was very much of a, how can I take the responsibility of anything that I see around me, whether it’s mine or not. Which also makes it very hard for me to be put in a box, and why I don’t like boxes. 

Alex Cullimore: Brief story, but I was a counselor for the outdoor ed program here in Colorado, which is like a week that sixth graders go spend in the mountains. I just thought like geology was like the class I taught, but you also just help people go through. They were away from home for a week, so you help them with meals and whatever else. If I was walking my class on the hike, and I go see another kid wandering around, it's not not my responsibility. Just because I'm in charge of this class, doesn't mean that random kid wandering isn't now my responsibility. That's the kind of mindset that is leadership. You don't shut it off at the purview that you've been given. It's about aiding the entire vision.

Cristina Amigoni: I would say, that's leadership according to Siamo. Try it out.

Alex Cullimore: Give it a whirl. Lead with empathy. Lead with curiosity.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Lead with empathy, curiosity, and without needing to take the credit. Don't make it about yourself, because it isn't. That's not what leadership is. It's not about yourself.

Alex Cullimore: then find yourself a surprise leader.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, thanks for listening.

Alex Cullimore: Thanks for listening.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo Podcast.

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Laura, and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood.

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review, and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts.

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or on our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook. WeAreSiamo is spelled W-E-A-R-E-S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human.

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