Navigating Change When Survival is the Goal

Cristina Amigoni: And you do have to have the trust on the other side of choosing who you can share with, because what you are looking for is the sun is the empathy." 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself, not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills, no makeup, just being.”

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today, it's Cristina and I, and we are here to talk about a topic that's near and dear to everybody's heart, whether they know it or not, and that is surviving change.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I think we're done thriving in change. And then we're kind of reverting back to how do we survive change? 

Alex Cullimore: What does this say about our current mental state? Let's not dig too far into that. 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm sure it'll come up in the conversation somehow, or people can speculate where our mental state is. 

Alex Cullimore: I think there's so much happening that could qualify as change right now. Obviously, one of the things that's on a lot of companies and people's minds is things like AI. That's a big change that's coming along and making everybody think about that. But there's just so many other things happening in the world. Many people facing things like restructuring their organizations, maybe due to AI, maybe due to other things. There's just the general churn of the world and the feel that everything changes so quickly. It's hard to stay on top of things, in the news cycle, in our lives, in everything that we hope to do, and that we run out of time to do. So, we thought we'd talk a little bit about what to do in chaos. And it's definitely not just self-help, and that we need this help ourselves.

Cristina Amigoni: I was about to ask you if you could just provide the solution so that you can just answer the question. What do you do in chaos? 

Alex Cullimore: I think one thing that keeps coming back to me, I don't have a discrete answer for that because there is no discreet answer for that. It's going to matter on what your situation is and how you're feeling. But I think one of the things that is hard to keep in mind, but always ends up being true, is the idea of capacity, your capacity for what you can do currently, and being honest with yourself about that. Because you can't actually do more than your capacity. There is no giving 110% in life. There is only at most 100%. But in reality, it is whatever you can give that is not otherwise occupied by all of the swirling chaos. 

I think the idea of capacity really comes to mind immediately to give yourself the understanding in space that, "Hey, you've only got so much as a person. And you cannot do more than that." As frustrating as it is, as much as it would be great to imagine that we can just invent capacity or willpower our way into having it, it doesn't happen that way. To that end, the only way that I know of to create capacity is to find the things that give you energy. It's not just taking breaks. It's finding the things that actually foster energy for yourself. Otherwise, it's very easy to enter states of burnout, states of hopelessness. And those are much harder to continue to see the light in and step forward in when we find the chaos. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, I like that. That's a very big piece is the capacity. As you were describing that state of awareness and capacity, and how it's not unlimited. And we can't expect it to be – even the limited of 100%, we can expect it to be there all the time because there's a lot of other factors, individually, and micro, and macro, individual, and world-wise. 

I kept thinking of the word resilient and resilience in general, which is now has entered a top list of my taboo words where I want to crawl out of my own skin when I hear talk about people use the resilience. Because I believe it's been not all the time. I mean, it's clearly an important word, and it's a good thing to have resilience. It's a good skill to have. And I think sometimes it feels like it's been weaponized. 

Alex Cullimore: Mm-hmm. If you're just more resilient, you could deal with this. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Exactly. You just need to be more resilient. Or it's not a lack of whatever. It's not a lack of structure. It's not a lack of common sense. It's not a lack of all the things that are actually lacking. It's because the team is not resilient, or the organization is not resilient, or the individual is not resilient. And so it's unfortunately used as a weapon to gaslight, to degrade, to not actually address the gaps and what's lacking and scapegoat with, well, because the people. 

If you destroy a whole organizational structure and, well, it doesn't work out, then it's not because maybe the vision wasn't solid, or it missed something, or it doesn't equate the culture and what the culture can handle, or the billions of other things that it could be. It's because people are just not resilient. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Yes. And it's always a blame too when it's said that way. And it's like you're just not resilient enough. Okay, first of all, what does that mean? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: It just means I'm tired of dealing with you having complaints about this generally. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, it does. It basically means like shut up and do whatever you're told, and like it, and make it work even though you're asking me to stay in front of a stampede of elephants. If I get crushed, well, it's because you're not resilient. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. How come he didn't have Wolverine titanium bones? 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. This other team would have done it. 

Alex Cullimore: Another team could have been trampled by elephants. I think that's the other one to watch out for, is that idea of a boogeyman. Both organizationally and internally, I think we can do this to ourselves. We can imagine there's some version of ourselves that, "Well, if I was more resilient, if I was in a better place, if I made myself do this, I would have been able to do that." And this imagined shadow version of ourselves that magically can withstand bullets, it's not real.

Cristina Amigoni: It may be in your dreams. But even then, something still happens to wake you up. 

Alex Cullimore: It's a big weaponized should as well when it comes – especially from external forces and like an organization of your team should be more resilient. What does that mean? If you can't define that, if you can't actually boil it down, then it's just saying, "Well, I put a yard stick in my head somewhere and you just aren't measuring up to it." And like, "Well, okay, but how clear are the expectations? How reasonable are the expectations?" Is there any reality in which that was going to happen? Or is it just like, "Well, I really would have liked this to be true." And it's very easy to fall into that trap of like, "Well, I would have liked this to have happened this way." Cool. But that has nothing to do with reality. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And I would like a million dollars every time I wake up in the morning. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, I would like to wake up on a beach. 

Cristina Amigoni: But it's not because I'm not resilient with each day.

Alex Cullimore: I just imagined a team that could deal with this chaos. Are you that team? What? I don't know. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Because we are talking about change survival. Again, we're not thriving change. We've given that part a long time ago. 

Alex Cullimore: That's a topic in a couple months, maybe. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. We had some optimism. It's mostly been chipped away. We used to talk about how do you thrive in change. Now we're just trying to survive and change. Let's get to the first. Let's change that yardstick. What's the first step? Let's survive. When all of this is happening around us, and whether it makes sense or not, and spoiler alert, I would say that 90% of the time, if not 99.9% of the time, it doesn't make any sense around us, how can we survive the chaos? I was trying to describe it to somebody yesterday and I said like it's like Titanic meet Armageddon meet alien invasion meet Godzilla meet Jurassic Park T-Rex all at once. How can we survive that? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, I think the first thing is to grow titanium bones and become a resilient person. I think I would recommend that to anybody. And if you can do that, if you have access to that, that'll help you. For the rest of us mortals – 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm going to go with the first thing is to get the f out of here and find a different universe or planets to live on. 

Alex Cullimore: Let's say you don't have a portal out into space, which does sound nice. 

Cristina Amigoni: And I'm good with like black hole space. I don't even have to land anywhere. I can just be floating in darkness. And it may feel more calming than sometimes watching what's happening around. 

Alex Cullimore: What we're finding out is Cristina's mindset is at an all-time low currently. The floating void of space and promise of nothingness is – 

Cristina Amigoni: We've now answered the question of where my state of mind is right now. 

Alex Cullimore: I think that's actually a really good place to start. Acknowledgement. Acknowledgement of your own space. Because again, that goes back to capacity. I think for me, the idea that you can acknowledge where you're actually at so that you can understand what your capacity might be. Because the next step that I would think that we can try to look for is what can we control. And it's very easy to – if we jump into that without thinking about acknowledging our own mental space where we might be at, I think if we try and jump straight to like what can I control, you can fall immediately into a lot of shoulds or telling yourself you should be more resilient. Or getting into the hopelessness of like this is outside of my control. So there's nothing I can do. 

Really going back to acknowledge your own personal space. Where are you now? And what is your capacity? And give yourself permission to have that be what might feel like an abysmally low number. If 7% is what comes up to you immediately, 7% is fine. That's where you're at. 

Cristina Amigoni: I was in the negatives already, so that's good. 7% sounds awesome. 

Alex Cullimore: I dream of 7%. 

Cristina Amigoni: I made it past a zero. It's almost like are we talking degrees in Celsius or Fahrenheit?

Alex Cullimore: I'm going to redefine our scale here. 0% capacity is like absolute zero. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's like 32. 

Alex Cullimore: The actual universe has stopped moving. Atoms are not vibrating anymore. 7% is brilliant. 

Cristina Amigoni: Again, it sounds awesome. Just the end of movement and atoms and just shit hole ideas and visions sounds awesome.

Alex Cullimore: I'm going to take even more of a step back and say that step one is finding a nice bottle of wine because I don't think – 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: I also recommend ketamine, a nice dissociative. Let's just – realistically, we can't push more than we can, more than we exist. And if we can't interact with it, that's going to have to be okay because it's going to be the only way it can happen. We can try to force it, but we will dig from -7 to -12 to -14. We're going to dig ourselves a deeper hole. I say all these things with what almost amazingly sounds like confidence in my voice. And I say that because I think that it's true, not because I'm at all good at practicing this or feel like there's a magical way to identify your own capacity and be good with it. It's not something I do well. It's something I'm trying to speak into a microphone in hopes that the echo will reverberate in my own head.

Cristina Amigoni: That it bounces back. 

Alex Cullimore: Future Alex who hears this, Godspeed, man. 

Cristina Amigoni: You were so resilient. 

Alex Cullimore: You had so much resilience back then. I know you thought you were at 7% and now you're at -12. But I can't acknowledge that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Well, and I think in that capacity piece is definitely the acknowledgement and awareness of that. Awareness and then acceptance that that's where we're at. And in the acceptance is the letting go of the shame, the guilt, the self-judgment, the outside judgment that may or may not come around depending on how public the change that you're going through is. 

And so sitting in debt for a while, because that's another piece that is going to take a lot of resilience, is to not get so drained by the judgment and the shame and the guilt. That then that 7% does really fast go to -255 because now you're in the meta feeling of like, "I have this capacity. And instead of accepting it, I now feel bad for only having this capacity." It goes into this ferris wheel of cycle and spinning. 

Alex Cullimore: One fun thing I found suggested recently was imagining those voices and when those shame voices come up and the critiques and the self-judgments, imagine those voices as if they were coming out of a snotty middle school boy. And then you just have this – well, you should just get up and do it. Okay, Tyler, you know what? You just need to go back to home room.

Cristina Amigoni: And for the love of God, here's a tissue.

Alex Cullimore: I'm not sure where that one comes in. 

Cristina Amigoni: You said snotty. All I can think of was about reaching over with the tissue and cleaning the snot. Not only, but you know what helps with that image in my mind is that if we focus on the tissue and cleaning the snot, the voice actually quiets because you can kind of shut the mouth at the same time – yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Alex Cullimore: I mean it more attitudinally, but the literal translation does help too.

Cristina Amigoni: When you said picture, I pictured. Yeah, that definitely helps a lot. I think in that capacity and in that self-judgment, kind of go through the motion of that, it helps me to rather than imagining snotty seven-year-olds whining, it helps me turn the question or turn the comment or judgment as if this were a friend. If it was a friend going through this, what would I think of them? What would I tell them? 

And sometimes, not all the times, we tend to have more empathy and compassion for others, at least the ones we care about, than we do for ourselves. And so kind of constantly going back to what would I tell somebody else going through this? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I think for me it also helps separate that voice from it being like thought that this is reality. It's easier to kind of put that into perspective of like, "Yeah, there is a voice in my head there. One of the parts is there saying, "Hey, it's got some judgment. It's trying to do its best to protect you from something." It just happens to be driving you deeper into a shame spiral. But when you can separate that from a little bit and then be able to observe it, put yourself in more of that observer state than the immediate swept up by the voice state, it gives you a tiny bit of separation and the ability to start that process where you can then get into the, "Hey, this is how I would talk to a friend, or this is what I would want to tell a friend that has that feeling." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And because shame spirals do feed in darkness and keeping them in, having those people, those friends, those people that you can reach out to and say this out loud, say out loud, "I'm feeling this. I'm feeling this shame. I'm feeling this guilt." It's amazing how fast, just like supposedly vampires in the sun, those things start disappearing or really shrink once you're saying it out loud to somebody else. And even as the words come out, you're like, "Oh, wait. I don't actually believe that." That's just one of the voices. That's the snotty kid trying to overpower. But I actually do believe." 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I actually had that experience very recently. Within the last week, I sent some message about some little shame spiral that had entered, and collapsed, and worry that had entered. And I texted this to someone, and they had taken a little bit to get back. They were in the middle of something. I knew they were busy. And by the time they – I went back and like reread that conversation, I didn't even feel the same visceral animosity about it anymore. I was like, "Yeah, now it feels like that was maybe overstated. Maybe I went too far on that." But it was because I had it bothered to put it down and send it out, which I will say way easier said than done. However, it was indeed very helpful. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And you do have to have the trust on the other side of choosing who you can share with, because what you are looking for is the sun is the empathy for what you're going through. And so if you are going to get judgment back that it's just going to feed the existing spiral and the future ones. And so, who can you share with that will actually provide that openness to be able to say like, "Hey, I'm not even going to finish the sentence because I already know it's not true." 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Makes me think of a tagline like empathy, the Clorox wipe of shame. Gets rid of 99.9%.

Cristina Amigoni: We did that tagline during COVID. It would have made billions.

Alex Cullimore: This imagery brought to you by disinfecting things.

Cristina Amigoni: In the disinfecting, so let's say we've gone through, we now acknowledge where we are, our capacity. We have awareness of what's causing – or even if we don't know what's causing it, we just have the awareness that that's where we're at. We're accepting and Clorox-wiping the judgment off of that. Now what do we do? And so part of the things in change and in transitions is going back to core values and understanding like what is important to me. If I do have 7% capacity, what's important to me to be able to do or accomplish or feel some form of energy in that 7%, which goes back to core values? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. These are the things that can give you energy. Knowing what recreates that and gives you capacity instead of just the guilt that you should have more capacity. What can actually build that? What actually is important to you? What will give you that boost? And there was also that idea that one of our clients had brought up to us of a dopa menu, where you have ideas already written down. And this is hard to do if you're already in the spiral. But if you're not in, then prepare yourself. You'll be there eventually. You put together a dopa menu of like what are short activities that give you a little boost, what are longer activities, and what are things that are meaningful on like even a bigger scale? The appetizer, salad, entrée version of what is providing, and helping, and you have time for. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And it could be anything from connecting with somebody who will provide empathy, to going for a walk, to getting some fresh air, to binge watching a movie that you really like that you've seen a million times. What are those things that can give you pause and also re-energize you without increasing the shame and the guilt? 

Alex Cullimore: Yes, this is a bit perhaps projection, but it's also from just what we've witnessed from other people who have entered into such chaos. That immediate guilt and shame comes up when you're like, "Hey, I should have more capacity," or, "Here's the things I wish would have happened," or, "Here's the things that I can't control but I wish were different." It's easy to get stuck in those cycles. 

And so I think that the first step, really, if you're in that level of chaos, definitely is this kind of evaluation. Give yourself the space. Give yourself the acknowledgement. Let yourself feel that for a bit. It's okay to wallow for a little bit and hopefully find the regressive ways out of that. But if you're continually just telling yourself to push it down, push it down, you're just growing the pressure of all the things that are building. And so letting that go a little bit, acknowledging these things, then finding your way out eventually gets you to a place where hopefully you can answer the other question that we're asking, which is what can you control? 

And that can be, "Hey, just think about what do you think the worst-case scenario currently is that might come out of this." And what would you do if that happened? And help yourself be like, "Okay, if that happens, I would want to do these things." And then you don't have to just be worried, like, "What if that happens? What if that happens?" You have an answer, "If that happens, then this is what it is." And often in life, it's not our worst-case scenario. Usually, it's not as bad as we think. But if it is, we've at least put some thought towards it, and we don't have to just feel like, Oh, God. If that happens, that'll be terrible." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And that's a great exercise, actually, to go through what's the worst-case scenario? Let's name it. Let's look at it. Let's figure out what we would do if that happens. And anything that happens that's not that, it starts becoming a bonus. And I'm like, "Oh, that didn't happen. Okay, I have more capacity for this other thing." Or I can approach it differently. 

And in that is understanding what are your non-negotiables. Yes, there's a lot that you can't control. But what you can control is how you show up and what the non-negotiables are. Especially in a time of change, there's always some non-negotiables. And these things have to stay or have to be present in the change, in the transition, in the future state, in where I'm at. How can you acknowledge those and really find the power into those? They don't have to be somebody else's non-negotiables. They don't have to be accepted by anybody else except for yourself. And it does help to go back to those when you are starting to have the multiple rainbow of emotions. And rainbow is very small. So it's way more than that of emotions that could be happening. 

Sometimes whatever change is happening around you could be a huge thing that provides relief. But at the same time, it provides fear and grief and guilt and shame. And so all of those can exist at once. And knowing what the non-negotiables are, what the core values, what actually has to be present, can then not increase the energy and the power of the things that we may not want to feel and we may not want to face at the moment. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And it has the secondary benefit of if you think about your non-negotiables and if you spend your time defending that, it will give you a little bit of that oomph of like, "No, I can stand up for the things that I need to." And it will remind you that like, "Oh, I have some power in this." Maybe not to change the situation you're in, but you have some power in the direction of your life or how you are feeling about it. And that's sometimes the only thing we have, and that's worthwhile. It still helps us remember, "Hey, it's not entirely hopeless." And if we are feeling that hopelessness, then it's a different question of going back to everything we were talking about, about, "Hey, how do I give myself enough space to be like, "Yep, I'm in the cave now that. I just pour some wine. I'm going to sit for a bit." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to reach out and tell anybody that could help, I'm in the cave. And they can come and have wine with you. They can make sure nobody else gets in. Whatever helps. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: But it's that being able to really accept where you're at and stop wanting to be somewhere else or not stop wanting to feel something else. Because the only true resilience and strength we have is within us. Everything outside is extra. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. And if you're not feeling resilient, that's not a character flaw. You're just not feeling it now. We're never going to have 100%. Whatever is going to be able to bounce back from everything, that's not how things work. When you get affected by things, it's like the laws of physics. Once something has acted on something else, there's a reaction. You can't just hold incredibly still as the herd of elephants tramples over you. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yeah. And even thinking ahead. So, without trying to escape the current state. But thinking ahead of, "Hey, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 30 years from now, when I'm looking back, what do I want to remember about? What I've done? How I've shown up in my life?" And in a lot of that, I find that there's a shift in perspective into what I choose to tolerate today. What seems perhaps too much today or too risky, too scary, too whatever it is. Today, if I think about what if this doesn't change? What if this continues for the next 30 years? That's when you're like it's much easier to get to like, "Oh, heck. No." The pain today is going to have to go through to get to that 30 years from now, there's no way. Because life is not about the big things. The big things happen. But when we look at life, it is about the million little moments we live every day. And if those million little moments we just accept because they're not serving us, but they're too tough to change, or they're too tough to face, or it's just easier to just go numb and push it aside, the accumulation of that becomes the avalanche of, "What the hell did I do for the last 15 years?" 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I think you said something a couple of weeks ago that has stuck with me, and I think it sums it up well. It's about choosing your hard. It's going to be hard one way. It's going to be hard the other way. It can be hard by the avalanche that you create. It can be hard by the things that feel really hard to face currently. And I like that perspective of like, "Hey, what if you look back in 5 years? What would you want to have done here?" Instead of looking back and being like, "Oh, my God. This is all the same." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Exactly. I'm not sure that helps with a change survival, but – 

Alex Cullimore: When all else fails, blast yourself into space. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: Float through the nothingness void. I think that's what we learned. 

Cristina Amigoni: Find a stampede of elephants and see what happens. 

Alex Cullimore: Take your chances with the elephants.

Cristina Amigoni: But remember the empathy. I think the empathy for yourself and the empathy for others, too. When we are going through change and we are looking for the cave and looking for the comfort zone, there's definitely a tendency and a need to close in. I saw something recently, and I'm trying to remember if I'm going to quote it correctly, but there's a difference between all emotions are welcome, all behaviors are not. 

And so in that sense is, yes, all the emotions are going to be there. Whether you like them or not, they're going to be there. So you might as well welcome them because it's a lot less energy wasted than if you try to resist them, or shove them down, or ignore them, or all those things that we try to do with emotions that we don't like. But behaviors are not. 

And in the sense of change and empathy, I always think of, even in the cave, we still do have the capacity to think about somebody else's experience. And so it's not an excuse to treat somebody else badly. And it's not an excuse to ignore, or judge, or gaslight what somebody else may be going through in a similar change or in their own change curve. Their experience is going to be very different. Their stages are going to be different at different times. 

And so understanding that, like, "Yes, right now, I need to go to safety. Right now, I need this." And if somebody else is not with me in the same stage, I need to also be aware of that and provide and know that maybe today I can't provide energy for them and empathy, and be there for them. But at some point, when can I do that? Because their journey is probably going to be just as difficult. It is going to be just as difficult whether we understand it or not. But closing in and let's say celebrating that a change doesn't impact you, while it may greatly impact somebody else, that's the behavior that's not welcome. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I think it comes back to capacity, too. Understanding your own capacity for giving something to somebody is helpful. Then you know where you're at. And communicating that actively, like, "Hey, I don't have the capacity today." That's much better than trying to minimize it because you can't cope with it currently. And it's an understandable reaction. We all have done it. But it doesn't help us connect with people. And it's a good reminder that, "Hey, they have capacity, you have a capacity." It's okay if you don't have the capacity to do that. But it's better to be upfront about that than it is to not. And if you do have the capacity and you know somebody's going through a hard change, well, what would you like someone else to do when you're in that spiral? 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: What would you do? 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Both versions of that. We do live in a world with other people. And whatever we're going through, it doesn't justify behavior that hurts others. 

Alex Cullimore: It's a good reminder. Space is easier. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I go back to, yeah, can I just step into a black hole and float in darkness? 

Alex Cullimore: On those notes, we did actually just create a change survival guide because we have had a lot of people going through similar things. We have options to help people and would be more than happy to send to anybody. It's just a PDF version of, hey, get yourself thinking about all these things. Get yourself thinking through your own capacity and help yourself. And we'd love to talk if you want to talk about that. But we can also just send that as an aid. We all have our own current swamp to work through. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, that's a great reminder. And we can definitely put that in the show notes so that you can find a way to contact us or go download it. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And exciting news, we are almost rounding the ending corners of our book that will be released in the next month and a half. Well, actually, I don't know when this will be released. It will be released soon after this. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, it will be released soon after this. 

Alex Cullimore: Depends on when this is released. The book should be released after this, but you never know. But yes, we are definitely seeing the light at the end of the tunnel of the writing process. And so we will have lots of more information on the book that we're writing. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Yeah. It's actually just 100 pages saying you should be more resilient. You should be more resilient. You should be more resilient. I think everybody needs that reminder. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And then just pictures of black holes.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, we're going to help millions. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, one way or the other. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you, guys. We wish you all the best of luck in the middle of your own chaos. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Thank you. 

Alex Cullimore: Thanks so much for listening to Uncover the Human. We are Siamo. That is the company that sponsors and created this podcast. And if you'd like to reach out to us further, reach out with any questions or to be on the podcast, please reach out to podcast@wearesiamo.com. Or you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is We Are Siamo. Or you can go to wearesiamo.com and check us out there. Or I suppose, Cristina, you and I have LinkedIn as well. People could find us anywhere. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, we do have LinkedIn. Yes. Yeah. And we'd like to thank Abby Robison for producing our podcast and making sure that they actually reach all of you. And Rachel Sherwood for the wonderful score. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you guys so much for listening. Tune in next time. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you.

[END]