Pitchforks Optional, Boundaries Required

[INTRODUCTION]

"Cristina Amigoni: We expect a certain level of respect from others. But do we always give that? When we don't, what are we actually doing to the ecosystem of society?" 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself, not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills, no makeup, just being.”

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Hello, and welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today, it's Cristina and I, and we're going to talk about something that's just I think oodles of fun, and that's respect and disrespect. The respectrum, if you will. 

Cristina Amigoni: Spectrum. 

Alex Cullimore: I'm going to see myself out. I'm sorry. We just lost five audience members permanently. 

Cristina Amigoni: So, in the spectrum of the conversation.

Alex Cullimore: I do want to point out for anybody who cares, this is not recorded on a Friday. We've lost our minds dead on noon on a Wednesday. So, how's this week going? 

Cristina Amigoni: I don't think we ever had our minds this week, but I like the optimism that we had them and we lost them. 

Alex Cullimore: What was the thing you said this morning? This week has been a hell of a year. Whatever.  

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yeah. Which was inspired by yesterday having a team meeting with a couple of people on our team, and one of them actually saying like, "God, how is it only Tuesday?" 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And then we all were like, "Yeah, I didn't think it was just Tuesday," but it was. It was just Tuesday. And now it's just Wednesday, and mental state low. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And then we'll get to Thursday and be like, "God, it's already Thursday. How did that happen?" 

Alex Cullimore: Suddenly, it's going to be Friday. We're going to be like, "This is – oh, it's over." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Which is how I feel about this entire year. The entire year of 2025 has been this kind of like slow daily churn, but then it's basically the end of the year. I mean, second half of September, it's like who are we kidding? Nothing's going to happen for the next three and a half months. 

Alex Cullimore: I don't know how it happens. 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm already writing 2026 when I write dates down because it's done. 

Alex Cullimore: I think that might just be aspirational. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: That's where I want to be. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: Hopefully. Hopefully, things are better by then. Maybe we don't want to be there. You know, who's to say? 

Cristina Amigoni: Black hole. Black hole. Teleporting into space. So, back to respect. On the respectrum, our angle may end up being – and this is a warning so that you can stop listening if you don't actually want to get through the next 20 minutes. It may end up being about recognizing the lack of recognizing that it matters. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's almost like you're in the desert and you realize how much water means to your survival because you don't have any. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Yes. And I do like that metaphor. And I believe that at some point we may get to the idea that you might be glad you're not thirsty now when you watch somebody else being thirsty. But that drought can come for you. So let's all find out. Rather than being hopeful in our own personal salvation, let us remember the influence that we have on others and the influence that others will have, and the influence of letting something pass even if it's not directly happening to us. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Which, if we continue with the metaphor, that means that if you are thirsty or you may not be as thirsty, but somebody else is literally collapsed and water appears in the desert, stealing that, not okay. Because you're still standing, and a person has collapsed. 

Alex Cullimore: I think we've now bridged into a metaphor on capitalism. I'm not sure. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, it could be a whole five year of podcasting on capitalism. 

Alex Cullimore: I phrased this at the beginning as respect to disrespect, but I have a feeling there's one end of the spectrum we may be focusing on a bit, which is okay. It'll still define the – 

Cristina Amigoni: It did provide the warning. This may be a lot more about when it's lacking than when it's present. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. But I think that's probably what people are more worried about. We can think about things like respect. And if you're living in a world where there's lots of respect going around floating your way, floating in other people's way, that's fantastic, and you should absolutely pass on all of the traits that you are exhibiting and work to continue to make sure that's the virtuous cycle that continues. I think respect is a fairly easy virtuous cycle. Once people feel respected, they're more willing to give that respect. You can have that. So, what happens in the all-too-common situation where we find ourselves spiraling down the toilet instead of up? I don't know. That's better. No. Just nope. I regret that metaphor immediately. 

Cristina Amigoni: I was going to tie it back to water, but honestly, that is not water that I would like to even have in the desert. Let's just not. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Interestingly enough, I chose a metaphor in which spiraling down is the desired effect. I should have gone the other way. Let's say going down the drain instead of the toilet because – 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, sometimes lack of respect does feel like the former metaphor than the latter one. 

Alex Cullimore: Where to begin on this? I was hoping maybe you'd answer that. After I started, I found out I didn't have an answer. 

Cristina Amigoni: Where do we begin? I would say – well, and you started that quite well actually is what would we expect to experience? It's much easier to feel the lack of respect when we are on the receiving end of it rather than when we're on the giving end of that. And yes, we all do it because it's a little bit like – I think you've talked about it in the past. If we're driving down the highway and we cut people off and we're not quite as clean and – 

Alex Cullimore: We're a bit more generous with ourselves. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. We're not quite driving as we would like our kids to be driving, or our mothers and grandmothers to be watching us drive. We are more generous, that's a good word, to about ourselves because, well, I'm going to be late for the meeting, or I'm going to be late for pick up the kids at school, or whatever. But when if somebody else is doing that, they're immediately jerks, idiots, assholes, disrespectful, have no idea they're bad drivers. So, it becomes very colorful. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Colorful. Good choice. 

Cristina Amigoni: And so if we think about respect, it's kind of the same thing. We expect a certain level of respect from others, but do we always give that? When we don't, what are we actually doing to the ecosystem of society that we're all connected by? 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. And what I'm now going to dub the expectrum. 

Cristina Amigoni: Just so you all know, we're not drunk. 

Alex Cullimore: No, this is scarily sober. 

Cristina Amigoni: This is just natural, natural way of being. 

Alex Cullimore: I had two cups of coffee this morning. I was trying to make sure I would be awake enough for this, and that this is still spiraled way out. 

Cristina Amigoni: Down the – 

Alex Cullimore: I think that's a good way of putting it because we do have both the capacity to give and accept, and we do – and I think it's called the fundamental attribution error. When we believe that it is a character flaw in other people when they do something wrong, whereas it is an acceptable anomaly when we do something wrong. We understand the driving example is I know that I wouldn't normally do this. I had to cut this person off because I'm late, or because, "Oh, well, I made a mistake, but I don't usually make a mistake." Whereas on the flip side, you're like, "Wow, that person is probably bad, and I'm guessing they go home and just yell at people. And they scream at their neighbors, and they light their house on fire. And I'm sure that's the kind of person that is." It's easy to fall into that. It's natural. And if we can be aware of it, we can then try and capture that a little more and understand what that means when it comes around to our turn. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: In our existence of connection with other people, where we do exhibit disrespect, we hope for respect, and we can see both happening for other people. What do we do when we face this kind of reality? And I think there's two angles. There's the part where we are feeling disrespected, and there's also the part where we witness disrespect, and those are two important scenarios. Because it's very easy to be like, "Oh God, I feel bad for that person." But you either don't want to call it out or feel like you bring attention to it, or worry about. Or you're just glad it wasn't you in that moment if you're witnessing disrespect. 

But allowing it to continue, it unfortunately allows for the ecosystem to have that level of disrespect that can then exist when we allow that for other people, when we don't speak up and we don't say, "Hey, I didn't like how you did that." Even if it had "nothing to do with us", if we allow for that, it's like boundaries. Once you allow for that, you're allowing the worst – what is that quote on leadership? 

Cristina Amigoni: Culture is the worst behavior you allow to happen. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. The worst accepted behaviors. 

Cristina Amigoni: And it's not always about other people. Yes. Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: I think that's a big one. I saw a quote. Robert Redford passed away yesterday. There's a lot of quotes and clips about him. And one that really stuck with me is he might have said it, he might not have said it. Seems like the person that would have said it. And I am going to butcher it. So it doesn't really matter if he said it or not. 

Alex Cullimore: He said something in the genre of. 

Cristina Amigoni: I know. I am trying to actually respect him in this, but it's about when you see something that you know it's not right, even though you're not part of it, do something about it. Saying nothing, doing nothing is complacency. It's allowing for that to actually keep happening. And that is one of the biggest pieces, as you said, is it's not just about how do I respect others. But what do I do when I see disrespect happening, and I'm not even on the receiving end of it, but I'm witnessing it? 

For me, that's one of the big things that it's pretty much unacceptable. I don't have a spectrum on that. The spectrum is you're not a human being that I want to really interact with. I don't want that type of energy in my life. If you cannot look at something that you know you wouldn't want for yourself and just let it happen. I mean, I've gone as extreme as I've seen other people being treated a certain way when getting laid off at a job, and I've quit. When they've gotten fired or laid off, and I was offered their job, hell no. 

Alex Cullimore: I saw what happened to the last person. 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm sorry. And it wasn't even like, "Oh, because I don't want this happening to me." I was like, "Because that was wrong." How that happened was wrong. I will not put my energy and limited time into a place, an environment that treats people that way. 

Alex Cullimore: I think that highlights exactly the question to ask yourself when you witness something is, "Am I willing to be part of this? Am I willing to put my energy into an organization?" Even if it's not happening to you, in an organization that would do this, into a community that would do this, that allows for this. That can be really challenging. It can feel like that can feel like a high bar when we have enough disrespect floating in the world. It can feel like that would be very limiting. But if we don't start to hold those lines, we allow for whatever misbehavior is out there. 

I saw a quote recently that was saying if you want to – a lot of people try and open up groups and make them acceptable for everybody, but if you allow for both sheeps and wolves, you'll end up with wolves. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's a good one. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, if you allow for – I think they also said Muslims and Islamophobes, you're going to end up with Islamophobes. You end up with whatever – that you think you're trying to be very accepting. But if you're not more discerning, if you're not more careful about what you allow to happen, you will end up with allowing more than you wanted, and it can fall to that lowest common denominator. 

When it comes to places like the workplace, this becomes challenging, right? Because we have power structures, we have hierarchies, we have bosses, we have expectations, we think we have jobs we don't want to lose. It feels challenging. And the question becomes, "What are we allowing to happen to us? What are we allowing to happen to other people? And are we willing to live in that world?" And these are not easy things to face down. We live in a world where it feels like there's lots of scarcity. It feels like it's very hard to challenge these things. And the more we allow this to happen, the more we end up sliding and opening that gap for more and more disrespect. What do we do? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And if we think about it, and I don't believe it's wishful thinking because there is also history that's evident too. But if we think about most of the most popular movies out there, it's the people that rebel to the disrespect that "win" at the end that end the misery for everybody, not just themselves. They go beyond their own piece and say, "Hey, this is not okay. But if we come together, we can stop it." And it could be every single Star Wars movie. It can be every single Avengers movie. It can be all of them fall into that. 

And in history, again, it's not like just, "Oh, it's Hollywood and it's movies. Blah, blah, blah. That never happens." No, no, it's happened. French Revolution, anyone? The Roman Empire did end. Every single empire has ended. Because at some point, the people say enough. It's not worth being miserable because of a few people or a group deciding that the rest of us don't need respect. The rest of us can just be resilient and deal with the disrespect. And it's much harder if we're individually trying to fight against that respect. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Yeah. That's one huge part of everyone. Every movie with trying to overthrow the power structure, there is always an assembling of the force because it cannot be faced alone. Yeah, we usually center on one hero. But it is always with a force that we can take this down. And that's an important thing to remember for human power in general is that when facing a power structure, the real power lies with the people who are willing to stand up and the amount that it requires. 

And I believe the studies have shown that it is about only like 3.5% of the population needs to be actively involved in something for there to be change, for there to be a movement. And so that is a much lower bar than you might think. Instead of being like, "Oh, I have to win over 51% of people so that we can have some kind of change." There is just the forcing mechanism of having a small amount of people dedicated to each other and to a cause. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: And I'm glad that you brought it up, Cristina, because I think that I was trying to not jump on my soapbox of everybody should grab a pitchfork and go to revolution. And now we've brought it up, so here we are. 

Cristina Amigoni: Pitchforks is all I have in my head as soon as I think about French Revolution. 

Alex Cullimore: Pitchforks and torches, people. 

Cristina Amigoni: Pitchforks and torches. And it doesn't have to be that violent. We're not proviolence here. But it is about having that – I'm not pro-violence.

Alex Cullimore: Just kidding. 

Cristina Amigoni: But it is about having that awareness that it's not just when things are extreme that we decide to do something about it. Disrespect grows from nothing. It grows from one person being disrespected in a meeting. It grows from somebody being excluded. It grows from trying to include everybody, having the sheep and the wolves, and not setting the expectations that, "Hey, we can all be in this group if wolves don't eat the sheep. That's part of the rules." You can be together, but you can't eat them. You're here to help each other. 

Alex Cullimore: You take one bite, we're kicking the wolves out. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: And so it is – we've talked about it in other podcasts, it's the million little things. It's the not speaking up when something that feels minor and tiny is just let happen. You just let it happen. And then if it happens to you, you go home and you start creating stories around it, and it starts eating you up. And if it happens to somebody else, the whole, "Well, it didn't happen to me, so I can let it go." No, not acceptable. Sorry. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, it sounds comforting. It's very hard to face these things. It's hard to go throw ourselves into something. But to your point, it will take something much more extreme if it grows, right? The amount that you have to be able to push back is proportionate to the amount that has to be pushed back on. The more you allow, the more push it's going to take when you finally face it. Whereas if you do these tiny steps. And I'm not saying this is all easy all the time. It's just if you do these tiny steps, you prevent it from having to go out of control to the point where you're like, "Okay, now we need to just organize a mass quitting event so that we get to change, or we need to all sign a massive petition, whatever." It can feel so much larger over time, but it all happens in those small little steps – 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: – that are easy to dismiss right up until they've all built up into a major force. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And now it does become a big deal. Now, does it become a revolution when it could have been or had more hope to be less revolution and less tragic and less overthrowing if it was during every little piece of disrespect and that was addressed. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. So, practical tips and strategies. What are ways that people might put themselves into a good mindset to challenge the things that need to be challenged? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I would say I don't know if that's in the tips and strategies or a little bit more on the soapbox type of things. 

Alex Cullimore: We're in for both. 

Cristina Amigoni: First of all, well, I mean, have the awareness. Have the awareness. Just because it didn't happen to you, that doesn't mean it can't happen to you even in a different way in the future. First of all, it's not acceptable. Just because it doesn't happen to you, it impacts you directly. If you feel that's a disrespectful thing, if it happened to you, you wouldn't want to go through that experience, then do something about it when you see it happen to somebody else. 

The other piece of the soapbox is for the love of everything. Do not celebrate the fact that you're not on the receiving end of this, but somebody else is, because that is not just disrespect, that's insulting, too. I'm done with my soapbox. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. First of all, it's great, the idea of put your own personal empathy on it first. If this happened to me, what would I want to have happen? And think about when those things happen to us, it's really hard to reach out for help. And it's hard when we feel like we're alone. If you can see it happen to somebody else, what can you do to help prevent that? What can you do to help? Just reach out. Even if you can't immediately challenge the thing or it's hard to go bring that up, or you weren't in the meeting, but you heard about it. Whatever happens, if you can reach out, then you can show that maybe hey that's – what would you want somebody to do? And what would you want people to do and know if you were in that situation? And so putting on a cap of empathy for that. 

And even better, knowing that person. How might they be feeling? Because there are some people – you know people well enough if you've gotten to know them, that, "Hey, they're going to feel this way. They might need a space here, but they'll come back over here." What can you do to help them in the way that they would want to be helped? The more you know the people, the better you can approach that question. The failing that absolutely goes to your own point of empathy of like, "Hey, what would I want to have done? And what can I try and promote?" 

And I think that also goes back to one thing we talk about all the time, which is core values and non-negotiables. What is happening that is – if it's violating your core values, is it time to leave? Is it time to be like I can't do this anymore? This is not part of me. 

Cristina Amigoni: And knowing that it's not always as easy to say I'll leave right now. But even if we have the awareness that this is not – that this can't be long term, you start the path, you start the journey into figuring out what can I do that's different from this. Where can I go? And what can I do while I am here? It may take a while to leave a situation that's disrespectful that you don't want to tolerate anymore. And what can you do in the meantime? How can you set up those boundaries? How can you really clearly know that what you're standing on is the respect that you want to live in your life? And when it's lacking in somebody else, when it's somebody else is going through that experience, you're just going to put your face on that and be like, "No, that's not – I wouldn't accept it for me. Why do I let it happen for somebody else?" 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And to your point, for both movies and for historical legacy, looking back, what would you like to have done? What are the people we celebrate when we look at things like World War II? We have lots of celebration for people who are in the resistance, whether they succeeded or not. Personally, whether they got out or not. Personally, it's a brave thing to do. It's an intense thing to do. And those are the people who are like, "Yeah, I want –" those are the aspirations that we have. We want to be that. We want to be Jennifer Lawrence in the Hunger Games. We want to be the person leading the revolution. So what are you doing that is to support that movement? We only get through this together. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Pitchforks and torches. 

Alex Cullimore: When all else fails. Or just for fun, pitchforks and torches. 

Cristina Amigoni: No. 

Alex Cullimore: Siamo's Guide to Revolution will be coming out. I kind of want to do that now. 

Cristina Amigoni: The Siamo's Guide to Revolution. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Actually, I have lots of ideas for this. 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, on that note – 

Alex Cullimore: And not even the violent kind. I mean, just literally the revolution kind. 

Cristina Amigoni: I don't think that any of those ideas are making it into our book. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Which should either be out or about to come out when you listen to this. But it could be that precursor to how do we build respect for ourselves? How do we then relate to others in a respectful way? And how do we lead groups based on respect? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. When we want to have that strength, we want to have that capacity to do the things that we value to do the things that we know are important, how do we do that? And that is a huge part of the book is trying to make sure we are in good standing with ourselves, understanding ourselves, understanding what obstacles we're going to hit mentally, getting better relationships with other people, and then working with groups. And now, I'm not going to add a chapter to the book so that we can have a nice revolution, but it'll be a whole separate book or a blog post. 

Cristina Amigoni: It'll be something. Well, wishing you lots of respect for yourself and others today. 

Alex Cullimore: Pitchforks and torches on the respectrum. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thanks for listening. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to Uncover the Human. We are Siamo. That is the company that sponsors and creates this podcast. And if you'd like to reach out to us further, reach out with any questions or to be on the podcast, please reach out to podcast@wearesiamo.com. Or you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is WeAreSiamo. Or you can go to wearesiamo.com and check us out there. Or I suppose, Cristina, you and I have LinkedIn as well. People could find us anywhere. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, we do have a LinkedIn. Yes. Yeah. And we'd like to thank Abbay Robinson for producing our podcast and making sure that they actually reach all of you, and Rachel Sherwood for the wonderful score. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you guys so much for listening. Tune in next time. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you.

[END]