Reigniting Relationships: The Art of Meaningful Conversations with Chris Burnett

Chris Burnett: If you imagine someone in your life that you haven’t heard from in a while, they reached out to you, and send you a message like, “Hey, how's it going? It would be great to catch up sometime.” Like, that's such like a positive thing to receive. So, imagine you giving that out. I think that's such a real, like, nice thing to do, and you can make someone's day just by sending that message.

[OVERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina.

Cristina Amigoni: Hello.

Alex Cullimore: This is our first podcast from across the pond here in Italy. I'm in Colorado, and we've still got a guest in here from Toronto. So, we’re really triangular in this as well.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. This definitely a global one. It would have been nice if you're already in Scotland, then, we would have done, “Well, I guess, Canada, Scotland team.” Still a third country. Not that they're the same country, but it's still a third country.

Alex Cullimore: I think we might have offended Canadians and/or Scottish people.

Cristina Amigoni: I’m pretty sure, yes. I love both, Canadians and Scottish, and countries. They're phenomenal countries.

Alex Cullimore: They’re hard not to love. That actually brings us right to our conversation with Chris, because he's a super likable guy. What he has to talk about is just incredible. I love the project he's on. This is a wonderful idea. One of those that just has like a great ability to snowball into something that can change all humanity, and change a nice twist on otherwise, what can be sometimes bleak, and more lonely existences that we have.

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed, yes. We call that a movement at the end, because this is going to be a movement. I mean, the whole purpose is to deepen human connections. I mean, I can't imagine why we wouldn't want to talk to him and support him.

Alex Cullimore: He's just been on a fascinating journey of figuring out how to make great connections for himself. He's got great ways of describing kind of what it's done for him, how he got into it, and a lot of low stakes ways to step in yourself, and start to get to those deeper connections. So, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Chris Burnett.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, enjoy.

[INTRODUCTION]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives.

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, coworkers, or even ourselves.

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni.

Alex Cullimore: This is Alex Cullimore. Let's dive in.

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today, we are joined by our guest, Chris Burnett. Welcome to the podcast, Chris.

Chris Burnett: Thank you, Alex. Thanks, Cristina. lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for being here.

Alex Cullimore: We're excited to have you. So, we'd love to start give people a little background on who you are. What's your story? And what brought you here?

Chris Burnett: Yes. So, I'm originally from Scotland. I lived there for 20-odd years of my life before moving to Australia for four and a half years, and currently, I live in Canada. My background, I'm a sociology student, so social scientist, and my background has been in social enterprise. So, I've done a lot of work in the social enterprise space, which basically, for those who don't know, is, it's about how businesses can achieve social and environmental good. So, kind of a hybrid between business and charity. My research and career today has mainly been focused around that.

Yes, so sociology background, so very much concerned with the bigger picture and society and how we're all kind of fit together. And currently, I'm doing some consulting work. But I also have a personal project, which is what we're going to get into. I'm sure where I've been sort of reconnecting and deepening my connections with the people in my life. And yes, it's kind of over the past six months or so become a real – it's gone beyond just a project that I'm looking at now to how it can become, I guess, something more of a professional pursuit, I guess. But yes, happy to go in any direction you want to with that.

Alex Cullimore: I mean, that personal project. sounds excellent. Thanks. Thanks for giving us a little background. But we know a little bit about the personal projects, which is a super interesting idea to go deep into relationships. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 

Chris Burnett: Yes. So, it started when I was in lockdown. I was living in Melbourne at the time, and like probably a lot of people, I was doing a lot of reading, because there wasn't that much else to do. And one of the books I read that year was Tuesdays with Morrie, which is a beautiful little book about what's important in life, and there's many messages in that book, but the one that stood out for me at the time was the one around connection and the fact that connecting with people ultimately that's the only thing that really matters. I was feeling quite disconnected at the time because we're in lockdown and it's quite homesick. So, this message really jumped out at me and I decided that I had to do something with how I was feeling from reading the book.

So, I started this personal project where for the first year, I caught up with 50 people that I hadn't chatted to in a while. So, I reconnected with people. It was pretty much a call a week, and it ranged from people I hadn't spoke to in six months, right through to a few people I hadn't spoke to in about six years. It was just one of those, “Hey, how's it going? What you've been up to? What's going on in your life?” We have these connections through social media, where you kind of get glimpses of people's lives. But it's not until you actually sit down and chat to them that you actually understand what they've been going through and what they're up to.

Yes, that was the first year of the project. I got to the end of that year, and decided that I wanted to do something a little bit deeper. So, I started recording conversations with my family and friends, which are like podcasts in a way, except that they're not public-facing. So, the recording is just between me and the person I chat to. I fell onto this format, came up with a structure. So, there's three parts of the conversation. Part one, I asked them questions about their life. Part two, we swap three words, which used to describe one another. So, kind of swap affirmations and reflect on what you like about the person. And then part three, we go down memory lane and reflect on our shared experiences, which is just, an incredibly fun thing to do with, especially friends we’ve have had for a long time. There's so many tales and stories to recount.

So, I've been doing that for the last couple of years. I've recorded 75 of these conversations, and most recently decided to write about it to share what I've done to really to encourage other people to do something similar, because I've experienced so many benefits from doing this project, and I just feel like other people could experience those two, if they do something similar. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It's a very fascinating project. I remember reading Tuesdays with Morrie. A long time ago, I think it was probably after college, or at some point in my 20s, and I probably read it again in my 30s. It's interesting, because now, I actually want to read it again. I remember making a huge impact and really liking it. And I'm now connecting that it was the connection piece that must have resonated with me. I don't know that that it was that clear when I was reading it back then.

Chris Burnett: Yes. Well, I think it's such a beautiful book, because, like me reading it back then, and me probably reading it now and maybe take something different from it. But also, different people will take something different from it. It covers so much. But yes, that connection piece was what at the time stood out to me. But maybe if I picked it up again, now that there's another message that would jump out.

Alex Cullimore: So, you mentioned briefly that you got a lot of benefits out of this project. What are some of the changes you've noticed going through this?

Chris Burnett: Yes. I think the main benefit really is that I now know my family and friends on a deeper level. I know so much more about their backstories, especially friends that I've made as an adult. So, friends that I've maybe only known for, let's say, five years. I know so much more about them, because I didn't know them at school or didn't know them at university and didn't know their full backstory. So, it's actually just sit down and take the time to ask them. I may have new little bits here and there. But to put it all together means that I know them on a deeper level.

Similarly, with like my aunties and uncles, for example, I think that those kinds of relationships I've only ever really had in the family setting, and not really had much one on one time. So, it's actually sit down one on one and ask them about their life as a kid, growing up. That's been fascinating too. And I feel like I just can put them in my head. I can put their jigsaw together a little bit better. So, that's been the main benefit. But also, just in terms of me knowing myself a lot better. Obviously, the three words that we swapped with each other, like I've had so many odd people in my life, give me three words that used to describe me. Therefore, I have learned quite a bit about myself based on what people have said. Then, there's also an element, a big element to it, too, of being vulnerable. So, people have opened up to me and I've been incredibly grateful for that. But it's also helped me to open up.

I think when people are vulnerable with you, it makes it easier for you to be vulnerable back that way. So, I feel like I'm a lot more attuned with my own mental health and when I need to open up and how I open up, and that kind of thing. Then, probably the biggest thing of it all is, it's been an incredibly fun thing to do, like, just in terms of the project and kind of the hobby and things, especially that memories part. But even just hearing people's stories. It's just an incredibly fun thing and there's just been lots of laughs along the way. So yes, that's just some of the benefits I've had. But yes, those are the main ones that I feel like other people could and should experience through doing something similar.

Cristina Amigoni: Those are definitely great benefits and good reflection on all the journeys, the vulnerability, and the connection piece, and how that's just giving space, providing space for hearing people's stories and where they actually are and how much we don't do that as much, just in normal conversations. It's all more transactional sometimes. It's very fascinating. How did you find, given the you how to format, how did people receive that format? 

Chris Burnett: Well, I think because I've done, as I say, the first year where I kind of caught up with people. I had developed this kind of hobby out of it, and people knew that I was doing something. I would message them ahead of time and say, “This is going to be a bit different this time. There's these three words that you need to write down that you'd use to describe me, and I'll sort of write down some memories that we share that come to mind.” I think, people, to be honest, we're just kind of like, “Yes, this is so you. I'm not really surprised that you're asking me to do this thing.”

It's funny, we're listening back to the maybe the first sort of 10 or 15 conversations, the format was kind of there, but not really. So, it was a bit like loose, and it wasn't as structured as sort of the rest of the conversations have been. But I think people have really embraced it. I mean, the first part where I asked them about their lives, like that always is the longest part, and then we usually, take a break after that. And then the other parts, by then everyone's kind of really opened up and is just used to the conversation that we're having. But that second and third part is very two-way, and so it's very much I'm bringing stuff to the table as well. And just feels like a more natural conversation, I suppose. Especially, the memories part.

Funnily enough, swapping the three words, feels natural with some friends, especially with a lot of my guy friends has not felt very natural and it's something that I've really noticed on a kind of broader level that a lot of the men that I've done this with have maybe felt a bit uncomfortable or just uncomfortable in giving the three words, but even uncomfortable receiving the three words as well in terms of receiving kind of appreciation.

But then afterward, a lot of them have commented, saying, specifically, that part was really great. I really enjoyed that. And I'm always like, “Yes, of course you did.” Because it's a really nice thing to do. But typically, as men, we don't really get vulnerable with one another and that sort of way, and really share what we like about each other. We're more attuned to roasting one another, I guess, is our way of showing kind of that we like each other. But yes, that's been a real fun observation to make, kind of having gone through quite a few of these conversations. And I feel that it has meant that it's easier for me and my friends to open up to each other, like going forward, because we've had this kind of breakthrough almost of being a little bit vulnerable with one another. So yes, that's been great, too.

Alex Cullimore: Absolutely, makes sense. I've noticed that just in general conversations, especially with men, there's, at first, a lot of defenses. If you make that first parlay, and you just reach out, and you say the first vulnerable thing. It's amazing how quickly the walls tend to come down. I think there's a lot of desire for having a little bit of closeness, but so little education and/or experience in doing so. So, it becomes this like, massive thing, and nobody wants to take the first step. But if you do it, I have rarely been received orally with people that I have at least partially close with when reaching out there. So, it's fascinating. That would be – it makes sense, that it would also be kind of reflecting the work that you're doing. I love that three-word idea.

Chris Burnett: Yes.

Cristina Amigoni: That is a great idea. I know that in the coach training program that both Alex and I went through, and I don't know if they did with you, as well, Alex. But when I went through it a few years ago, that was one of the things we had to do was reach out to four or five people and ask them to tell us what three words came to mind when they thought about us, or what three words, they described what they appreciate about us. And even just thinking on who to ask was a vulnerable exercise for me, and we had to do it. We had to either call or send a text message and have an answer within a couple of hours. Because then we need to come back and complete the exercise. So, I remember like even just thinking about, like, whose opinion do I actually want? First of all, who's going to respond, then do this in the time that I need? And then, am I going to want to hear what they want to say? And what are the backups?

Because of the time crunch in that of like, needing an answer within lunchtime, it was definitely interesting to go through that exercise and then be like, “Okay.” Some people, I remember thinking I'm going to text instead of call because first of all, I never would call like, we communicate via text first, and then plan a phone call. So, it would be strange for me to just call. Also, I knew them that if I put them on the spot, they wouldn't be able to respond at that point. So, it was more of a like, “Here's the request. Here's why I need it. Here's when I need it back by if you are willing to do it.”

Chris Burnett: Well, if I ever take one of these courses, I'll already have completed the exercise. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Seventy times over. You have plenty of those answers.

Alex Cullimore: I remember that was one of the first things we did and that was terrifying.

Cristina Amigoni: It was terrifying.

Alex Cullimore: That’s terrifying reaching out to me. But I reached out to one person instead of the four or five we were supposed to. So, but it was like one of the first things we did out the gate. That was horrifying.

Cristina Amigoni: I think, I ended up reaching out to maybe three or four, and one was an old boss. So, for me, it was like, do I want to know what you actually think about me outside of the professional environment?

Alex Cullimore: So, when it comes to the first phase of it, you're talking about people's lives and you dig into some of their past. Do you have like a structured set of questions you'd like to ask? Is it a little more flexible per person?

Chris Burnett: I probably have. It's interesting, because one of the reasons I ended up writing my book about it was because I had a few friends who I had the conversation with, asked me afterward for my set of questions, so that they could go and have these conversations. I honestly hadn't written down questions at this point. Every time I chat to someone, I probably write down the same, I'm going to say, six or seven bullet points. But the majority of the questions come, because I know this person. This is a family member or a friend. I already know them and I know there's aspects of their life that I want to know more about.

So, the questions are quite tailored. If a friend has a particular hobby, let's say, that I've never really sat down and asked them about, then I will make sure that is one of the questions I asked. But yes, there are probably six or seven questions. So, I always start with either what you liked as a kid? Or tell me about where you grew up? What that was like? And then we go into school, how was primary school? What are your memories of primary school? What are your memories of high school? What did you do beyond high school and why? And then questions around, jobs they've had? Then, typically, I'll finish up with kind of where are you at right now, and what's coming up in the future?

Those are kind of six or seven questions there. But everything else in between is based off of, A, me knowing the person and knowing what I want to ask them about beforehand. But also, B, what comes up in conversation. I mean, the real magic here is in the follow up questions, right? So, when someone, you ask them about primary school, and they start telling you a story, and they feature one of their friends or something, it could be, “Oh, are you still friends with that person now?” That might be one example. And then let's teach in a completely different path into talking about friendships that they maybe have, still got, or maybe they don't have any friends from school anymore, and why that happened. Yes, all this kind of topics that can just kind of come up because you ask a follow up question and it leads you down. The more rabbit holes, the better for me in this kind of experience. So, that's why I kind of leave it as maybe six or seven questions that have a fair, kind of chronological, really, and I can base things off of that. But really, it's more about the specific things I want to ask them and what they bring up in conversation, really.

Alex Cullimore: That makes sense. It sounds like an excellent exercise and just incredible curiosity and continual just listening for what are the important parts? What happens next? If you were to like help people jump into something like this, what kind of important mindsets, they might need to have to step into this kind of activity?

Chris Burnett: Yes, that's a great question. I think, curiosity, you've just touched on it yourself there. I think, you need to be clear on why you're doing this, I suppose. So, for me, it was, I want to know more about the people in my life, then that was always been my guiding principle, and that's why I've done everything that I've done up till now with this. So, I think if you're clear on that, then it's really easy. It's kind of comes naturally once you start the conversation. It can feel a little bit forced to start with and that's why having a few questions is useful, to just kind of guide the conversation.

But really, once you get into it, because these are people, you know, you'll have a sense of familiarity and trust there already, and you already know how you interact. So, it can feel a little bit maybe structured, but once you get going, it really is just like you're just having another conversation with them over a beer or over a coffee or whatever. But it's just by their life, really. 

Another thing as well is to be open to friends asking you things in return. So, I've had quite a few instances where friends refused to let me ask another question without me first answering the question that they've just answered. So, if we're talking about school, they're like, and I'm like, “Okay, I want to now ask you about” – “No, hold on. No, no, you tell me about your experience about school.” So, I think being open to that as well and being open to sharing. So, do this with people that you're willing to share with as well. I think, for anyone that's listening that might want to do something similar.

So, I've written out now a full-on script that people can use that I've got my website, so people can download that and have that as a kind of, you could just read from that and use the Questions on that, and that could be the whole conversation. But I think I would see it as a starting point. People would have that in front of them. So, they're a bit confident of like, well, I've got this to fall back on, but really just let it naturally flow. Yes, as I say, remember, the whole point of it, is just to learn more about the person you're chatting to.

Also, there's been times where maybe things have come up in conversation that people don't want to get into, and that is absolutely fine. There is no pressure from my end on people getting into things that they don't want to talk about. So, I think just being open to that as well, in terms of realizing, “Okay, this is a sensitive subject, let's just move on”, and not feeling like you have to dig into something and someone's obviously feeling a bit awkward or uncomfortable.

Having said that, sometimes sitting in silence, and just allowing the person to kind of think if they do want to chat about something or, that's something in and of itself that is quite useful just to kind of take a moment, take a pause, and then either get into it or move on. So, yes, that's just a few things off top my head that would maybe help people wanting to do something similar.

Cristina Amigoni: Very useful, for sure. So, I'm curious about the recording piece of it. Because you said, these are private conversations, not a podcast. So, what drove you to want to record them?

Chris Burnett: I mean, I love listening to podcasts. So, I kind of had the idea of, “Well, this is kind of like me doing my own podcast, except, imagine if I could do it without any of the needing to edit or market or any of that, and just to have a recording.” I think as well, I’ve done something similar-ish with my grandma and grandpa, quite a few years ago, where there's an app called StoryCorps, and I'd used that app, it gives you a list of questions. It was very structured in the sense that it just gives you a list of questions, you choose them, and then you base the conversation off of those questions.

But I've done something similar with them, and then my granddad has since passed. And I've really listened to that recording quite a few times, and it's so incredibly vivid to have the audio of them speaking to you. And you're like, you feel like you're back in the room. You can look at photos and stuff. But I think actually listening to them is very different sensory experience. So, I had one of those recordings previously, and I think I just came back to that as like, how cool would it be to have all these recordings for everybody in my life? So obviously, there's also an element of now having serious material in terms of if I ever need to blackmail any of my friends, I've got their life story on record, and all of that.

Yes, exactly. So, the way I do is, if it's over Zoom, or if it's in person recording the conversation, then I just send them the audio file afterward and it's up to them, if they ever want to listen back to it, but it's in a Google Drive folder, it's just private to them, and they can access that if they want to. A few of my friends have gone back and listened to it. Quite a lot of them have said either, I'll leave that for a few years before I go back and listen, or I'll cringe too much at my own voice. I'm never going to listen to that again. So, that's totally up to them. But I think that, if you were to listen back in, say, five years’ time, it's kind of interesting to see how you talk about things, especially in your good life at present, when you're listening back.

So, yes, I think that the inspiration was just liking of podcasts and be fancy and kind of doing something similar. But also, I had this previous experience where I had this keepsake with my granddad, and I was like, “Oh, that'd be amazing to have that with other people, too.”

Cristina Amigoni: I'd love that, yes. Because they think about, especially, now, we have – everything is digital. So, there's a whole different set of challenges in keeping conversations that you want to be able to go back to, whether it's taking screenshots, or I don't know, all the different ways that you could do that. But I was just talking to my kids about how back in the first century, BC, the Internet didn't exist. And when I made friends from abroad through summer camps, we wrote physical letters to each other after we went back home in our respective countries.

I know I have a couple of boxes hidden somewhere with those letters. While I haven't done that, in a few years, I used to actually go back and read the letters, because it was that memory of remembering that and the voice piece, it's even more powerful, as you describe that. It was like, “Oh, that's a conversation we had”, instead of just being the memory in my mind. I can actually listen to it again. 

Chris Burnett: Yes. Another part of it is as well, with recording the kind of third part with the memories and the shared experiences. I mean, that to me is like, instant laughter whenever I need it. Because there's so many stories there that I've talked about with friends again, and again, and again, over the years, they always come up. But now I have a recording of that memory. So, to go back into that and know that it's the most like private special podcast you could have, but to go into it and know that like, well, if I skip to this part, we're going to start talking about this thing, and that's just going to make me laugh. So yes, there's that element to it, too.

Alex Cullimore: That's awesome. Just having this whole living relic of somebody having a whole relationship and a snapshot in time. It's also interesting to have that happen during lockdown. Given that that was an interesting time, super time for all of us. I don't know. It would be interesting to look back. I've even looked back to our podcast episodes that were during that time, but there's a different mind in that lockdown than there is afterwards. I'm curious what you've learned about yourself throughout this journey. What has been some takeaways?

Chris Burnett: Yes. I've already touched on the three words to described, that's been used to describe me, and I've kind of gone back over that and look at themes that have emerged and that's been great. I feel like I have a greater sense of who I am. The vulnerability part as well, as I've talked about, being able to open up, that's certainly been a huge thing for me.

But I think it's just generally helped me be a better conversationalist and a better listener as well, because I've just been having so many of these really intentional conversations and holding space and taking the time to sit and listen and engage with people in my life has made me be, yes, as I say, a better conversationalist, and also the reflective elements. So, I wouldn't say I was particularly a reflective person before this project. And now, I find myself, intentionally taking time to sit and reflect on something that I'm going through that maybe, like I'm struggling with. Or on the flip side, something that's going really well and actually sitting and kind of basking in that and appreciating that, for what it was, in that achievement.

So, I think I've just become a lot more able to actually just take a bit of time and not just get the head down and move on to the next thing, but actually, yes, take the time to sort of pause a little bit more. Then, I've developed a habit to keep connections in my life. So, it's not always a call, but it might just be a message. But I'm finding that I'm way more proactive in messaging people and just being like, “Hey, what's going on?” Or sending them a voice note and just dumping, “Hey, this is what's going on my life? What about you?” I feel like I've developed a bit more of a habit into doing that, because that's really important for me in terms of keeping that, sort of the depth of the connection because, yes, we can follow each other on social media and see which other are up to. But again, you're not actually connecting. So, I find myself developing that habit, which has been really great as well.

Cristina Amigoni: It's interesting, because I was about to ask you, actually, how have you noticed the changes and the actual connecting? So, not the connections themselves being deeper, but in the verb, in the act of connecting with people that you have interviewed?

Chris Burnett: Yes. So, as I say, definitely more often, and it's funny enough, literally last night, my mate just called me at the blue, and we had about a half-hour chat. Now, I'm not saying that wouldn't have happened beforehand. But that isn't that uncommon for us to do. And it probably wasn't happening prior to me sitting down with him and asking him about his life. So, I feel like it's just led to a little bit more of that, people doing it back towards me as well. And I love it when people reach out to me that I haven't heard from in a while. And I feel like that happens a lot more now, because I made the kind of, the first move if you like, and kind of took that time to reach out. Reaching out, it can just be a, “Hey, how's it going?” And a couple of messages [inaudible 0:27:33] that's it for a while and that's awesome, too. It doesn't have to be a full-on, let's sit down for an hour and swap stories sort of thing.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, that's great. That's awesome. So, you say you want to take this project that started as a personal desire during a time where we were all pretty disconnected from each other, and you want to make it more of a professional thing. What does that look like? So, it started, the book that I wrote, was never the intention. I basically did all these calls with the intention of getting to know my family and friends there and then decided, well, maybe I'll write about it now that I've done a bunch of these. That's been really well received and I have been sitting, since the book came out in November, I've been sitting trying to figure out where I go next with it. I finally landed on what it is I'm going to be doing.

So, as of sometime this year, I'll be starting up this movement to encourage a million conversations that deep in connection. And what that looks like is my own podcast, where to start with, I want to share anecdotes from my project, and talk about different themes that have emerged. But the whole aim of it is to encourage others to do something similar. So, what I want to be doing as well as get to a point where listeners getting in touch with me and tell me about conversations that they've been having based off of these activities. So, what I want to do is the three parts that I mentioned, and breaking that up into three different activities that you could do. So, you could just do the memories part, just do the three words part.

The idea would be that eventually it gets to a point where people get in touch, and saying, “Hey, I went and had a chat with my friend, and these are the three words that we swapped.” And then I read that, read that out in the podcast, and then other people could go, “Oh, hey, I could do that.” So, there's this ripple effect of action being taken. And what I want is to get to a point where it becomes fully like, it's not about me anymore, and not about my project anymore. It's really just about other people out there, deepening their connection with one another.

That's the ultimate goal. I think, with a podcast, with events as well, so having events where I can imagine events that people come to with someone that they know a friend or a family member, and then, they are one of many pairs in the room that are engaging in one of these activities at the time. Then, on that night, there's maybe 100 conversations have happened, which again, is towards this idea of a million. The million thing is arbitrary, right? It's not about the number. But it gamifies it to a point where people can feel like they're participating in something.

Then, the third thing is, there's a podcast, there’s events. And then the third thing is, there's probably resources. So, having, I mean, digital, yes, but like I talked about, a script earlier that I've got on my website, but I actually think it's going to be way more effective if I can get physical versions of these things. Because there's so many PDFs out there, right? There's just so much you can have on your screen, and then it just gets lost within a bunch of tabs or whatever. Whereas having a physical little pamphlet that is a little, maybe it gives you little tips on how hold space, or be an active listener, or whatever it is. But then also, some questions that you can ask.

Anyway, this is kind of where I see myself going. I'm not entirely sure what it will look like. Professional pursuit is maybe a bit too strong of a term to put on it at this point. It’s definitely just going to be continuation of a passion project. But as long as I'm enjoying doing it, then hopefully just keep going, and I think if I can encourage just a few people to go and have some intentional conversations with their family, with their friends, and then that will be fully worth it for me. I already kind of know that and I have done that, because some of my friends have gone and recorded conversations with their friends. So, even that, in of itself is a win already. But yes, that's where I see it going in the next, let's say 6 to 12 months.

Alex Cullimore: That's incredible. Well, the vision, love the idea. You described it as like a ripple effect. I think there definitely will be a lot of that. It'd be fascinating to see as the numbers start to roll in. What kind of trends do you want? You notice of like what people notice about each other. What are there things that come up a lot in the three words that tend to like, what people notice most about people they appreciate? It'd be really fascinating to – that's it's, a giant sociology experiment in itself. But it’ll be just incredibly interesting to see where this goes. Obviously, if there's anything we can do to help, because that's a wonderful mission, and I love the connection idea. It's very inspiring.

Chris Burnett: Thank you. Yes, what you talked about there, in terms of being a massive sociology experiment. I mean, as I mentioned, at the top, that's my background. So, yes, there's really the qualitative researcher in me is like, “This is quite interesting.” But look, I think, especially the reconnecting calls, that's an activity, and then the going down memory lane, and kind of talking about your shared experiences, that's an activity. I think those two things are things that people kind of do already, but it's just being a bit more intentional about them.

So, I think that's what I want to try and inspire as this really practical, doable, doesn't have to take you that long, but getting into habits of catching up with people. That's the other thing is that, when you catch up with someone, it doesn't mean that suddenly you're like, fully in their lives all the time and you're chatting all the time. It can just be once a year, you have a little check-in and catch-up. But that, in and of itself, will deepen your connection with them, but also will just be a nice thing for you to do, and you'll get loads of like positive benefits from doing it. Because it might take you back to a time when you were at university or whenever it was that you met this person, it just brings up some positive memories. But big on the sociological experiment part of it too.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, it's interesting, because as you mentioned, it's not about now we have to call each other every day, or every week. But there's something that shifts when connections are deepened, where now the absence of the actual act of connecting is no longer as impactful, almost. So, once we have a deeper connection with somebody, and we happen to not talk to them for six months, there's no taking it personally. It's like, “Well, it took you six months to call me.” Or, “I didn't exist for the last six months.” It's almost like there's a lot more grace and empathy to the fact that, it's life and this is how it is. And yet, when I do pick up the phone or send a message after six months or a year, no time has passed. The connection is right back where it was.

Chris Burnett: Yes, absolutely. And what I hope is that, like what I've seen, is with a lot of my friends, is that they will now reach out to me. So, what I hope is that by people taking the first sort of step, and taking that first piece of action to kind of instigate a conversation is that then, beyond that, they then see it happening the other way around, and then you have this kind of two-way thing going on. That's what I hope to see because I've seen that. So, this is the whole thing with me starting this movement, et cetera, is that I've had so many benefits, and I want other people to experience these benefits.

There's a whole conversation around mental health, and I think that deepening connection can lead to more preventative conversations around mental health, is where I'm kind of seeing this all fall into that space. It's the preventative stuff where I found with mates where I'm having conversations now, and if I'm not having the best time of it, I will just be honest and say that and be like, “Yes, not doing so well at the minute.” I can do that in my life with a bunch of people now, because I've made the effort to really deepen our connection with one another, and it's not maybe just like one or two friends that I can reach out to, just that general. And it's not to a point where it's a crisis, for example. I think, there's a lot of support out there for people that are in a really, really bad state, and that's incredibly valuable for them. But I think there's something before that, where we can just normalize the conversation of like, “I’m feeling a bit flat.” Or, “This isn't going so well.” Ultimately, I hope, that that can come out of this as well.

Cristina Amigoni: That's a huge thing and the data is coming out and there's a lot of articles and pieces that are looking at the research of how loneliness. The more we're technologically connected, the more loneliness is a pandemic. There's deep loneliness that people feel, and especially because there's this myth of connection. There's this almost-like image of connection. And with the technology and the social media and the way that we're connecting at the surface, really, and not at a deeper level. There's almost as – I heightened shamed when we're not feeling great, because well, look at everybody else's life. They're doing so well. How can I possibly reach out and say that I may not be in a great state right now? Then I'm the loser or I am whatever the shaming, self-language that could come up with that. So, yes, I'd say that there's a lot of talk about it, but also research that the connections that deepen human connections do have a huge impact on mental health, positive impact, and the lack of negative impact.

Alex Cullimore: I think Adam Grant just talked about something about loneliness isn't about the quantity of relationships, but about the quality. This is a great way to step in and start to learn that and build that muscle as well, as build some of those quality relationships. You got me sold on reaching out and doing a lot more of this, and I love that idea of kind of a practice, and it can be very low intensity, just let's try out. Let's just have a brief conversation, if that's what it is, because it's still – that might build into more of a relationship. But you wouldn't have done it if you don't have that first reach out. Other ways, still just to get good muscle to practice. So, there are people who are feeling, just like the nervousness over that first step, what advice might you give them?

Chris Burnett: Read my book. Download my script from my website. That's very open and free for people to do. I think that even if you didn't do one of the parts. At the minute, the script is the full three part. I'm working on breaking that up into smaller activities. But even if you just do one of the parts. I think that the easiest thing to do is probably just to catch up with someone you haven't spoke to in a while. And a while could just be a couple of months. It could be someone that you do actually have a regular connection with, but you just haven't spoken to in a couple of months or whatever. And it's just about sending that message.

Sometimes we build up in our head, like, “Oh, but what if they don't get back to me?” Just send the message and see what happens. If they don't get back to you, that's their loss. So, I think, yes, just sending that message and taking the time. I mean, if you're one of these people that calls people a lot, then I guess, pick up the phone and bring people. But I think Cristina, you made a good point there about where these days, we tend to message ahead to arrange the time that we're going to phone each other, which – yes, just sending that first message.

For me, when I started, I just thought of people that, it had only been a few months since we spoke, and I knew that if I message them, they'd reply, and at least say like, “Yes, I'd love to”, and try and get a call. Not all the people I have reached out to, have been able to take the time to have a call with. But I think even just – if you imagine someone in your life that you haven't heard from in a while, they reached out to you, and sent you a message like, “Hey, how's it going? It would be great to catch up sometime.” That's such like a positive thing to receive. So, imagine you're giving that out. I think that's such a nice thing to do, and you can make someone's day just by sending that message.

Cristina Amigoni: That's true. As much as I love technology and cell phones and all the great things that we have. I just remember like the days when it was just again, one century BC, first century BC, when we didn't have cell phones, and it was home phones, and you didn't even have caller ID. So, that was an automatic thing, is like you got home from school, you just picked up the phone and started dialing numbers. There was no anticipation of the connection. The connection was just surprised every time or the phone would ring. It would be like, “Oh, it's for so and so, and it's so and so.” But it's the constant, it feels like there was a more intentional way to connect back then, because the only way you could do it was to randomly call and randomly be called without the expectation.

Chris Burnett: For sure. Agreed.

Cristina Amigoni: So, a couple of last questions. One, where can people find you? Especially, as you expand all of this into so many other things than the book.

Chris Burnett: Yes. So, at the minute I have a shockingly long domain name, because I haven't actually bought the domain name that I want yet. But I will share my social media profiles with you guys to put out in the episode description. LinkedIn is good one, Instagram as well. My website, I'll share all that and people can just reach out if they want to and have a chat. I'm always keen to chat to people who are interested in this. Then, my book is available on Amazon as well and there's links to that on my website. And people can actually read a little preview of the book as well before they purchase if they want to. So yes, I'll share all those links. Unfortunately, the minute I can't give you a snappy www.this.com.

Cristina Amigoni: Not a problem. It’ll be in the description. It’s easier.

Alex Cullimore: What’s the name of the book?

Chris Burnett: The book is called, Conversations: Connecting with People in our Lives. It's available on Amazon. It has a paperback and eBook.

Cristina Amigoni: Excellent. Awesome. And then our last question, which we anticipated we would ask is, what's your definition of authenticity?

Chris Burnett: It's funny that this is the one scripted question that you have, because I wrote my book with two principles. One was simplicity. So, less is more, which is why the book has 90 odd pages. It's incredibly short and sweet and I've deliberately written it in that way. It's been great because I've had a couple of mates who don't really read much have bought the book and have messaged me saying, “This is the first time I've ever read a book in one go.” And that was exactly what I was trying to do with keeping it short and sweet.

So, yes, simplicity was one. The second principle was authenticity. The kind of tagline I had with that was, if it doesn't feel me do it, but I guess you could flip that and say, do what feels me. There's probably a better way to look at it. But where that kind of came out in the whole book writing process was, I read a lot of blogs and attended a few webinars around self-publishing and around – writing the book is one thing, but it's marketing the book, that really is the key thing, right? And pretty much all of them talked about having a social media profile and a presence for the book.

So, like an author page, or the book itself, having a social media. I toyed with this idea for a while and I thought, “Well, yes. I've got plenty of content. I could write some stuff.” Then, I just thought, well, it's not really me, though. I feel like I would have done it for a few weeks really well, and then it would have dropped off. So, I just decided, “You know what, I'm just not going to do that, because it doesn't feel me, and I want to be authentic with this. So, if it doesn't feel me, don't do it.” That's a long-winded answer, but that's probably my definition of authenticity and I’m interestingly enough, keeping those two principles moving forward with this idea of the whole movement. That's two things that I very much always come back to whenever I'm doing something, is does it feel me? Is it simple enough that you know, or am I over complicating things?

Cristina Amigoni: Really liked that. That's a great mantra. Like, “Does it feel me?” If not, don't do it. I'll have to ask myself that question whenever I'm in that crossroads.

Alex Cullimore: I got a couple of things to ask. Well, thank you so much for joining, Chris. Thank you for explaining all this. This is a fascinating project. I'm super excited to see where it goes. I'd love to continue to support it over the weekend. But that's really awesome. Thank you for doing this. And thank you for coming on the show.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, thank you.

Chris Burnett: Thanks for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate you having me on and it's been great to chat.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, thank you. Very inspiring. I have another book to add to my list of books to read and I know it's going to take me a little to read it. So, I'll probably just put it to the top of your list and be like, “Yes, these other hundreds and hundreds of pages book are going down.”

Chris Burnett: Yes, awesome.

Alex Cullimore: That, and Tuesdays with Morrie.

Chris Burnett: Yes. That, and Tuesdays with Morrie. If you do read the book, let me know what you think of it because I'm always keen to hear what people make of it.

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely will. Well, thanks, everybody, for listening.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always Uncover the Human.

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