Root Cause vs. Symptom: Building Effective Problem-Solving in Teams

Cristina Amigoni: What's the first thing that comes to mind? What is the easiest thing that we can do? Replace everybody on the project. I'm like, 'Well, do you know why the projects are not going live? Is it because people don't understand how to translate what the business's requirements are into the technology is supposed to be doing or what that process is supposed to be doing.

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives.

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, coworkers, or even ourselves.

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni.

Alex Cullimore: This is Alex Cullimore. 

Both: Let's dive in.

"Authenticity means freedom."

"Authenticity means going with your gut."

"Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you."

"Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself."

"It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true."

"Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be."

"It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being."

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. It's just Cristina and I again today. Recently, just talked about space and how that helps for individuals, and getting to that moment between response and reaction. We'd like to talk about that at a little larger scale. So, getting to the root of something rather than treating symptoms of problems, or treating what we believe to be the problem without getting down to what might be the root behavioral causes. We're going to try and rein this one in. This one's a bit of a passion project for us, so this is going to be a fun one.

Cristina Amigoni: That's a good start. Try to rein this one in. Let's see if we can get to the root of talking about the root of this. 

Alex Cullimore: The root of our –

Cristina Amigoni: Meandering.

Alex Cullimore: – thoughts, let's say. Skip over the word frustrations, and then I'm going to say it anyway, so that it's still peppered in.

Cristina Amigoni: We're never frustrated about lack of going into the root of things. 

Alex Cullimore: So, let's think about this for one – let's back up and define a little bit what we mean here. When we talk, especially organizationally, this is definitely near and dear to our hearts, because that's what we do for organizations, is think about what the root problems are for organizations. Let's think about what we hear commonly from people. You'll see them on LinkedIn, you'll see the complaints, you'll see the worries, you'll see the questions. "My team's not collaborating. My team doesn't feel empowered. People aren't talking. There are silos." Etc., etc., etc.

There are a lot of different approaches, but let's think about – let's take silos just for a second, because that's such a common one. You hear silos all the time. "People are creating silos. These departments are siloed. There's not enough communication between them. People are putting up walls." All of that is absolutely accurate and true, happens all the time. It's a very common human nature. We do tend to just kind of create this us first then.

Let's identify some common responses to that, that may not be addressing the root problem. I don't know if you have a couple off the top of your head, but I do. 

Cristina Amigoni: Go right ahead. You're straight, shooting for the center of the earth.

Alex Cullimore: I'm going straight, shooting the center of the earth here.

Cristina Amigoni: Oh, I'm not stopping you. I'm seeing just roots of trees just tangled all the way into the earth.

Alex Cullimore: Oh, stop me when I stop making sense. So, you got siloed.

Cristina Amigoni: That's already past.

Alex Cullimore: Oh, we don't make sense now. We're already a nonsense thing. All right. Silos will be relatable.

Cristina Amigoni: Silos is relatable. You're making a lot of sense. You're making a lot of sense. Keep going.

Alex Cullimore: You get silos in your organization and you decide a couple of things. Maybe you do, you reorganize yourself and now, everybody who was siloed is now in the same department. You just mix them all up. You send people from Department A and Department B, or vice versa. Definitely an option. We also tend to find – you do that, you haven't really addressed the fact that those people started to not get along. Now, there's just relationship craft built up.

So now, you will just see mini silos in what you thought you were opening a grand tent. Now, you get inside that grand tent, and there's little mini silos all around the place because you've just shuffled around where the silos were and people are just building up smaller little walls, or maybe they're just slowly conglomerating back into the original silos. Or you might try just forced collaboration. I don't know how else to say that. You try force collaboration by saying, "You need to collaborate more," and then usually not following up. You see a lot of those, like, "You guys need to collaborate more," and then step it out of the room, and not defining what that means, or why, or what's going wrong in the first place. Those are the first two that come out of my head. Thoughts?

Cristina Amigoni: I have another one, and then we can go to the root cause of all of them. Because I think, there's one root cause of silos, and it manifests in different ways. So, there's different symptoms, but it's one really true root cause. I am the expert of that. So, of course, what I say is Bible. I think the other thing that we've both experienced, and we've also seen in previous lives are laying off a lot of people, and hiring a whole new group of people every six to 12 months. 

Alex Cullimore: Escape goat approach. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Expecting the whole new group of people to then actually fix what was wrong, which we never really figured out, which is why, maybe some people were not the right fit for the culture, the company, the job that needed to be done. There's no doubt that not everybody's always a perfect fit. Do we actually still know what the root cause of the problems? Do we know what the problems were? Not the surface symptoms of the problems, but we know what the real problems were, and how would that address those?

Alex Cullimore: Sometimes we replace the people, sometimes we replace the leaders, but that is definitely a third popular approach. We go in and we say, "There's a problem. These groups can't get along. We're just going to X group A, or whatever it is, or take out what the believed issue is. Or just try and separate them even more to just say like, "Okay. These don't get along, so let's just create a workaround." Now, you've just got two interacted parties who have been essentially rewarded for their interacting behavior.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Well, and it's interesting because even getting to the point of saying they don't get along, which is what's causing the business issue, it's already going deeper than the usual. Because the usual is staying truly at the surface of projects are not successful, customers are not happy, let's replace all the employees because it's definitely the employee's fault. Maybe, but all of them? Is that realistic?

Let's go deeper. It's like my son last night came down for dinner and is like, "Mommy, my laptop doesn't work." I looked at him, was like, "Okay. Those words actually don't mean anything. My laptop doesn't work. Does it actually tell me what the problem is or what we're supposed to do to fix it? So, can you get a little more specific?" He was like, "Oh, I can't get on the Wi-Fi. The Wi-Fi doesn't work." I'm like, "Well, the Wi-Fi works for all the other 25,000 devices that we have in the house." So, we're a little bit narrow. We're narrowing down to like – okay, so the laptop turns on. That's a good step. Okay. What happens when it turns on?

So, we unpacked without even touching the laptop. We actually got to what was potentially being the problem. It was like, "Oh, I tried to connect and I can't connect to the Wi-Fi." I'm like, "Okay. We can go look into that, but I can't go look into my laptop doesn't work." Unfortunately, from an organizational perspective, this happens all the time, all the time. The projects are not efficient or we can't meet our deadlines. Okay. What's the first thing that comes to mind or what is the easiest thing that we can do? Replace everybody on the project. I'm like, "Well, do

you know why the projects are not going live? They're not expecting the deadline? Is it because the requirements are not clear? Is it because the clients is changing requirements halfway? Is it because people don't understand how to translate what the business's requirements are into what the technology is supposed to be doing, or what the process is supposed to be doing? Is it because the people that are supposed to be collaborating are not collaborating?"

What is causing the deadline to be missed as opposed to problem solution? Walk away. "Oh, that's happening again. Oh, that's happening again. Oh, that's happening again. Okay, let's just shuffle people around, and change the processes, and fix it." I'm like, "Do you know what the problem is? What is the problem?" 

Alex Cullimore: So, if you don't go to shuffling, if you don't go to losing the people, then my next favorite one is, "Okay. So, the projects aren't meeting the deadlines. So, we're going to take a time to document and measure speed on projects. So, this little, often, the software things look like, how many tickets are getting completed? How are we completing each sprint we have, all these story points? Are we meeting all the story points that we thought we were going to get to?

Then, you get these beautiful looking graphs of slow separation where realities disappear from what we expected to have happen. Then, everybody gets in a fluster about like, "Well, we're not meeting all the story points." At which point, people find a thousand different ways to do things like break into smaller stories or underestimate the amount they can get done in a sprint, just so that it will look like they meet the metric. Then, a couple of months down the line, people look around and they're like, "Actually, we're still not meeting the deadlines. This project is still not meeting them. But we've put this beautiful dashboard out there that tells us we are meeting some expectations."

So, we've entirely, again, missed the root behaviors of, "Did we do all of the questions that you asked? Is it about translation of requirements? Is it about the people aren't skilled to deliver this at that time they need to deliver it? Can we do the upskilling we need to do? Can we change the processes? Can we make sure that the collaboration is happening?" Those are all the questions that haven't yet been answered, but now you have new insights. Now, you have a new measurement that people can play to. 

The second you have some goal to shoot for, you can find whatever way to do it. I love the stories of people being like, "Oh, I needed 10,000 steps on my Fitbit, but I'm on video calls all day, so I put it on my dog."

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Exactly.

Alex Cullimore: That's great. Your Fitbit shirt looks great, and you are no more fit.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Especially for customer support, and hopefully that trend has changed. It can be pretty common for customer support to look at – to equal success and progress by the number of tickets and how fast they're actually being addressed. Also, something that we've lived through in previous lives, where you get to the end of the week and you look at your stats, and you're like, "Oh my God. Look at this customer support team. They're phenomenal. There were 100 tickets open and they closed 90 of them." I'm like, "And yet, the customers are still screaming. So, can we figure out what's going on, because the customer relationship has not improved, and they're even more pissed off than before."

So, maybe take a little more time on each ticket instead of measuring velocity, and number of tickets, and how fast you can close them, and figure out what the root cause is. Also, something that we've lived through many times. Get a customer call saying, "Payroll doesn't work." "Okay. Ping the payroll team." "Payroll team, like product team," I'm like, "Go fix payroll." And product team is like, "That doesn't mean anything. What do you mean payroll doesn't work?"

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Works for the other customers, works over a here, works the last time you did this. What do you mean doesn't work?

Cristina Amigoni: What do you mean it doesn't work? And was like, "No. Customer said it doesn't work. I have to give them a solution." I'm like, "But you don't know what the problem is." So, usually at this point, when I used to get involved, I used to pick up the phone, call the customer instead of just going from whatever the written ticket was and ask. I'm like, "What are you trying to do? What result are you not getting that you're expecting?" I'm like, "Oh, I'm trying to run payroll and I get an error." I'm like, "What does the error say?" "Well, the error says that two employees are missing state addresses." I'm like, "Okay. Well, payroll will not run for the entire company in this setting, unless everybody has an address and a zip code. So, that's your problem. The problem is not payroll doesn't work. Product team, go fix payroll. The problem is, figure out what the zip code is for these two employees, put it in their HR profile, and then run payroll again."

But that's what getting past the, "I need a solution now so that I can close this ticket, so I can meet my numbers." It gets to, now, the customer's happy, and hopefully, this mistake and error won't come up again, because we've all learned something.

Alex Cullimore: I really love the customer example, because it's an easy, visceral way for us to understand what the distance is between us and the problem because the customer is going to walk in and say something like that. They'll say something like, "Payroll doesn't work." It's not like they're wrong, their payroll isn't working. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Their payroll isn't working.

Alex Cullimore: It's not working on their portion and they don't know why. For anybody who's called in to a customer service line about something that's not working, you probably try and do your best because we're all tired of waiting on holds for a long time. So, you probably try and do your best to take your best guess at what the problem is, but you don't know. You don't have the internal systems nor do you know what's possible. That's your job as the people who run the system to know what this is.

So, asking the right questions is really important to get to that root cause. Instead of immediately being like, "Payroll doesn't work. Great. Let me talk to my team," and hanging up immediately before knowing what the hell we're even searching for.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly.

Alex Cullimore: We do this internally too, because a customer is a good example of like, somebody that feels like out of distance, but that happens internally as well. Well, here are things like, "Oh, I'm not getting what I need from this department." Now, your immediate response can be, hang up the phone with that person, run over to the other department, and bring the hammer down and say like, "You're not providing what you need." You don't even know what you need. You don't even know if that's true. You don't even know what's happened so far. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Exactly. And you know this, even internally, especially, having worked in data conversion. How many times did you get pings or phone calls of people saying like, "Hey, Alex. The data doesn't work or the data is incorrect?" And you're like, "That doesn't tell me anything. You have to be a little more specific than that."

Alex Cullimore: I would tell you a number by a plaque that pushed on my life out.

Cristina Amigoni: I know. I remember you getting pinged with that all the time.

Alex Cullimore: You're not wrong. That happened aggressively frequently. However, I don't remember that. There is a portion of my life that is cut out. I think anybody who's served anytime on call probably feels similarly.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. So, going back to get to the root cause. The first instinct, especially as leader is, when somebody shares a problem, or when you see that you're not getting the results that you're expecting. The first thing is actually to recall one of our past podcast episodes a couple of weeks ago is, look in the mirror. Do you have a clear understanding and have you clearly stated what results you're expecting?

To go back to the payroll examples, first phone call to the customers, like, "Tell me what you're trying to get and what's not happening." So, same question for leaders. If you don't see the team producing what they're supposed to be producing, working the way you expect them to work, the results are not happening from a project perspective, from a deadline perspective, from a scope, from an innovation perspective, whatever it is. First question is, do you know what you're expecting? You have a very clear image of what your expectations are.

Next step is, have you communicated those expectations? I expect teams to work this way. I expect transparent communication. I expect people to be on a field working together as if they were a soccer team, so everybody can see where the ball is, and be ready when it's their time to kick it. Or, I expect team to be in separate swimming pools, completely separated, and have to send a trainer to communicate between us. What is it that you're expecting, and what is it that you're not seeing? That's the first step.

Then, get to the root of what's causing that. When it comes to silos, the answer typically is, there's no trust. So, people are not communicating, because they don't trust each other. Because incentives are, "I have to win and I have to take all the credit, or I'm going to get laid off or I won't get the bonus. So, I have no incentive to actually work with somebody else and trust them because they will take me away my bonus. They will take away my glory if I do

that." 

Alex Cullimore: It's not even just glory, but you take things like, bonuses you're talking about, people's general livelihoods. People are going to protect that very viciously. So, the incentive is not the collaboration that you're looking for. You're not going to get the collaboration you're looking for. That reminds me, I've now seen through a haze of my own blackout here. I was like alone on this day. 

Cristina Amigoni: I've opened the window to the seventh circle of hell that you were trying to get.

Alex Cullimore: Yes. I'm going to have to go back into therapy immediately after this, but I want some brief time on this podcast, I'll share with this. I was kind of alone on the data conversion side, at least the automation portion of it. So, I would get pinged with all these questions and it was singularly, it would all fall to my desk. So, I couldn't get anything, I couldn't really do a lot to improve processes while I was answering all these fires all the time. The policy then became briefly like, "Well, don't talk to Alex."

Cristina Amigoni: I can't imagine why not.

Alex Cullimore: Don't talk to Alex. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I was scolded just a few times for talking to you. I think it was a weekly scolding that I got. Somehow, I never stopped.

Alex Cullimore: And the thing was that, it does address the symptom. Like, I can't do anything when people are continually pinging, sure. But then, creating that black hole just created other issues, because we weren't getting to the bottom of, "Look, this is an unreasonable ask. What person should be running this? That's just not going to happen." Whether you're pinging me or not, just the work that needs to get done is not going to get done. So that was a good example of yes, that did help reduce my immediate symptoms of like, blenching every time I heard a Slack noise go off. But it didn't resolve the fact that there are – there's the need for people to ping in to get those responses.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, indeed. Yes. Just on a side note, as a tangent. Clearly, I can't be told what to do, because I went from, "You keep telling me not to talk to Alex" to "I'm going to start a business with him." I'm going to go to the extreme of not talking to Alex.

Alex Cullimore: It's a good example of incentives.

Cristina Amigoni: I know.

Alex Cullimore: The other, actually, a story that comes to mind is, one, we've talked about this before a long, long time ago. But it's a fairly famous business case, I think at this point. There was the car factory that was like, I think it was like a Ford factory. It was known to be a pretty egregious place to work. There's just truck use on the job, and all kinds of – it was one of the worst performing car factories. Toyota buys this factory and turns it into a Toyota factory. Within a year, it was one of the model car factories with the exact same employees. One of the model car factories across the nation. This is because of what the incentives were. I don't want to slander Ford. I thought it was Ford, but I totally could be wrong here. Just some other company. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's a fictional company that doesn't exist anymore.

Alex Cullimore: Back in the '90s sometimes. This is a different, regardless.

Cristina Amigoni: In a separate universe. We're in multi-universe, multiverse land here. 

Alex Cullimore: We'll call it Schmord. I don't know what company it was, I'm just assuming that. But the incentives were, "Hey, get as many cars out as possible." That was leading to all kinds of unsafe things. And of course, at that time, Ford had a less good reputation than it does now, and have not necessarily creating cars that were going to last a long time. Toyota had the same reputation it has now for having cars that would last a very long time. The whole point of their incentives was, let's make sure you're getting – yes, we want to get – obviously, they'd love to get as many cars out as possible with the qualification that those cars meet all the quality standards and safety standards they expect.

So, they set up the conditions for people to be able to actually stop the assembly line when they needed to. Actually be able to raise their hand and be like, "This doesn't work. Hey, what if we tried this differently?" Suddenly, you've got an efficient and safe workforce with the exact same people that is – this goes back to our original thesis of, "Stop trying to just replace the people immediately." Because it's not just the behaviors that are coming out are based on the incentives, are based on the environment. And yes, there are still some people who you might have to go change around. Sure. Rarely is that the exclusive case.

More often, you can get results you'd like to get by changing so much of the environment. That's why getting to that root cause is important, rather than just treating what you see symptomatically.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. All right. Now, we're in the – what do you do with all this information now? 

Alex Cullimore: Good transition.

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. You see a problem, you perceive a problem, you're told about a problem, whichever it is. You see an area for improvement. Things are not working the way you're expecting them to. Stop. Don't go to solutions. First of all, create a clear understanding like, "What am I expecting that I'm not seeing happen?" Once, you have that definition and you're clear with that, go to the people that have brought up the problems, or you think may be involved in the problems, and communicate. "This is my expectation and I don't see that happening. Do you know why?" Start investigating.

I will go to the root of who is responsible for this. So, not the first layer of seventh. Go straight to the people on the ground. You're not going to actually understand what's going on through the telephone game. You're not, because everybody's perception is going to be different, everybody's going to be out there to save their own skin. Look at your incentives, what are you incentivizing?

So, if you want to understand why projects are not meeting deadlines, go talk to the team. That's who you need to understand. You need to understand what's going on. Do you understand the direction? Do you understand is this possible? What are you missing? This is the expectations. We're not meeting the expectations. Did you know that this was the expectations? So, leave all assumptions behind as much as possible, and really try to get to what's actually going on, where it's going on. Not what people have said may be going on, seven layers over.

Alex Cullimore: I got some perfect example of getting down to literally the roots. Curiosity and that lack of judgment is really important, because when we say root cause, it can feel like we get down to, "Oh, this is actually Jim at accounting, and he's messing up this whole process, whatever it is. This is not about blame. Maybe it is that Jim missed some part of the process, maybe he doesn't know that's part of the process. Maybe that's so cumbersome he's been unwilling to do it. There's whatever reason might be there and it doesn't – if you don't jump into blame, then it is much safer for people to raise these issues, take question what needs to be questioned so that this doesn't even get all the way to your desk. This doesn't even become a problem in the first place that you're aware of.

You should hear about these things less if you're creating that safety and not creating that blame. Because the second you are in any culture of blame. Yes, there are some like, "Hey, we need to change some of these behaviors." Sure. It's not saying there's never somebody to ask to change. It's just about how you're doing that, and whether you're going out to find somebody to blame. Because the second it's detected that you're on a path to find blame, everybody's going to go into covering their own ass, and covering their teams, and making sure everybody's safe. That's not a bad instinct, to want to cover that. It's understandable to want to

cover all that. But again, your incentive is different if you're – the incentive of avoiding blame is very different than the incentive of solving the problem. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, indeed.

Alex Cullimore: That's what your attention needs to be at the forefront and it needs to stay in that curious zone. That reminds me that the – I do want to acknowledge and give some acknowledgement for the impetus and the desire to jump to the solution. It's understandable. A thousand percent, you're asked as a leader to solve problems all the time. If you think you have a quick solution, if you think you understand everything, it's very tempting just to be like, "Okay. Do that, and go, or just dismiss that, solve the symptom, try to move on to the other things that were already fires on your desk." I want to acknowledge that that is absolutely going to be a pressure on your plate. There is every incentive in the book for you to maybe not do this dive.

Our ask is, thinking about this a little bit wider and trying to solve those root problems, because you're just going to find that problem again in a different way. Or, you'll find the same problem over and over again until you take your time, get the space, get the space for those people to really get down to that route, and it's fine too. And to acknowledge for yourself that there is going to be the impulse to jump to a solution. That's perfectly natural. Even if it's natural, it doesn't mean it's helpful.

Cristina Amigoni: It is. Exactly. There's also is going to be the impulse to blame somebody else. Just based on survival instincts, there is the incentives of that. So, being able to investigate without taking somebody's perspective of blaming another department, blaming somebody else, and then using it to narrate your own understanding, it's also very important. If we go back to the payroll situation, it took me two years to figure out how to run payroll. Now, I'm never going to forget it for the rest of my life, and where all the pieces are needed to do it, which is good. It's actually really interesting. It's actually very good information to understand how a platform software works. So, you've got a platform software that gets data from all the places, ultimately, from an HRIS perspective, of a payroll perspective, your goal is to run

payroll so that people can be paid. 

I mean, there's a lot of other things like performance reviews, onboarding, all those things, but the number one thing you one is people get paid, and get paid correctly, and on time because

that has a ramification of consequences for everybody involved. Thousands of employees,

their families, it's that. So, when you look at that, everybody has to understand where the connection points are. In the investigation of, "Oh, projects are going red the week before GoLive." It's usually like the first stop, the first gate, it's usually like, "Well, we couldn't run payroll." Which is why payroll is – we can't run it. It's like, "Oh. Well, it's the payroll team's fault." 

I'm like, "Well, no, we don't know that." So, "Payroll team, investigation number one, what do you need? Why can't you run payroll?" They're like, "Well, because we don't have all the benefits configurations in there, and so it keeps throwing arrows." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Let's go talk to the benefits team benefits team. Benefits team, what's happening with the benefits configuration? Do you have everything you need?" Like, "Well, no. We don't have everything we need, because we're missing some of the HR data. Unless we know if people have dependents or not, we can't run the right configuration, which then throws the numbers to payroll to run for the paycheck."

So then, go the HR. It's, "Okay. So, how do you get all the dependent information?" Like, "Well, it's the HR's team's fault." Again, fault, we'll see. You just go down the line. But part of that investigation always goes back to how can we prevent this in the future? I'm like, well, education. That's how you prevent it. If people understand what the dependencies are between a team. If the goalie under – that's why it's like, let's take all these people, put them in a soccer field, tell them, you need to know where the ball is at all time. 

The ball at the beginning of a project is maybe data receiving and conversion. At the end of the project, the ball is getting into the net, which is the payroll runs and paychecks are sent. But everybody has to have visibility of that, and everybody has to understand, how do I pass the ball to the next one? What is my responsibility to pass, not to the void, but to the next player so they can score the goal? Until you have that, you're never going to get the trust and collaboration. There's no way you're going to get there.

Alex Cullimore: That's a good metaphor if you think about just being asked, like, you get the ball, you pass it to the right. Okay, that doesn't help at all. What if that person's not over there right now? Like you get in the context and knowing why you need to pass there, and what's up, and knowing when to change that. Like, "I always pass to Jack. I always pass to Jack. I always pass to Jack." Okay, well, Jack's on PTO. Okay. Well, Jack isn't at the soccer match. Jack has just sprained his ankle. What do you do now? Still trying to do the same goal? So, how do you make that happen, and make sure you know the overall field for it?" 

That can absolutely spin out these much more creative solutions of, "Oh, you know, actually, we need to have a check that alerts the HR admin, 'By the way, we don't have zip codes for some people.'" "Oh, okay. Great." That's way easier to solve and to have that proactively, so that it's not, when the person clicks run payroll, it goes, "Nope." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, no. It's HR's fault. It's benefits' fault. It's time entry's fault. I'm like, "No, it's nobody's fault." What do you need? What visibility do you need to understand? 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Now, we've given very specific examples about our recent HR payroll. I hope you can all translate that nicely to your lives and getting more clarity to understanding –

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. To you own workplace and your own projects. Good luck.

Alex Cullimore: Give it the non-judgment.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. All right. Well, get to the root cause.

Alex Cullimore: Go for it, find the root.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Thanks for listening.

Alex Cullimore: Thanks for listening. 

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Raechel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review, and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always uncover the human.

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