Serve Your Audience! Becoming a Better Speaker with Meridith Grundei

EPISODE 63

[INTRODUCTION]

Alex Cullimore: Hey, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hi. 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back. We just had a great conversation with Meridith Grundei. 

Cristina Amigoni: We did. Yes. She is a coach for presentations and become better speakers and presenters. And she uses improv. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, she uses a lot of great techniques to really connect with what makes an effective presentation. What people remember? How to become more comfortable being the person that delivers those, and having that point of contact. It's a super interesting conversation. Lots of great tips. And I just love her approach to remembering that we're all human both in the audience and the presentation. And what does that mean and how does that inform how every presentation is going to go. It's a fascinating conversation.

Cristina Amigoni: Very, yeah. Very fun. Very fascinating. Definitely makes me think about my own presentation styles and how much I need to change, which is good. It's for the good. And I love like then some of the rules that she's brought up, like the 10, 20, 30 rules from Guy Kawasaki, of no more than 10 slides, no more than 20 minutes long of talking, and 30-point font. And if we can all think about how very few presentations have actually done that and how much we don't remember from those presentations, this is where Meridith comes in. 

Alex Cullimore: Please enjoy.

Cristina Amigoni: Enjoy.

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

 Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. We are joined this week with our guest, Meridith. Welcome to the podcast, Meridith. 

Meridith Grundei: Thank you. I’m so delighted to be here.

Cristina Amigoni: Welcome.

Alex Cullimore: We are thrilled to have you. Coming all the way from New York City.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Meridith Grundei: I am. From my bedroom in New York City. 

Alex Cullimore: We've all spent some time in New York.

Cristina Amigoni: Almost sounds like a song.

Alex Cullimore: Come to you from my bed.

Meridith Grundei: It does a little bit.

Alex Cullimore: In New York City.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Alex Cullimore: Meridith, thank you so much for joining. We'd love to hear a little bit of your background. You do a lot of coaching. You do all kinds of things at this point. I’ll just let you tell the story. What are you up to? And what do you do? 

Meridith Grundei: I do. I’m a multi-hyphenate. We'll start there. Very much a multi-hyphenate. And I wear hats in several places. So I’ll start with the major hat that I wear, which is in my professional life. I’m also a mom. So that's another hat. I would call that a major hat as well. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Meridith Grundei: I'm a public speaking and presentation skills coach who uses applied improvisational methods to help people overcome their fears with public speaking. To help them feel more comfortable, more confident and more grounded as speakers. And so that's one of the hats. Where that hat came from was the other hats that I wear, which is the hat of an actor, director, improviser. I’ve been doing that my whole life. I would say, since the age of nine, when I first stepped on a stage to perform, I believe it was jazz dance that my parents put me in first. And so I just got that bug the second I stepped on stage at the age of nine. And I have not looked back. And so I guess that sums me up in a nutshell. It's a very brief nutshell. 

Cristina Amigoni: With a lot of things. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. It feels like there's a lot of stories in there. 

Cristina Amigoni: Very rich nutshell.

Alex Cullimore: One or two things in between those bullet points. 

Meridith Grundei: There is. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Meridith Grundei: And if my husband were sitting here right now, he'd be like, "And this, and this." And he's wonderful to have next to me. This is like an extension of the things I leave out. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Over-stuffed nutshell. 

 Meridith Grundei: There's pros and cons to it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Alex Cullimore: So you got from doing a lot of performance into some of the performing, coaching, performance or presentation coaching. And how did that come about? What was that transition like? 

Meridith Grundei: Yeah, thank you for that question. So I’ve always been, I would say, a teacher. I grew up going to camps. And then I wanted to be a camp counselor. So I was. And so I’ve always loved being that mentor, facilitator, coach, teacher. Definitely, that's a major hat that I did not mention. 

And so from there, as I was acting and pursuing my acting career in San Francisco, I started teaching in after school programs. Started one called Theater Monkey, where I would go and teach theater to like k through sixth graders. And they would put together their own plays. That was super fun. And then I moved to Chicago and ended up working in other after-school programs. And in one particular after-school program, there was a woman that I was teaching with who's also core faculty at the second city. And she really liked my teaching style. And so she said, "Hey, would you come work for The Second City and bring some of your curriculum with you and help us develop the new youth program that we're building there?" And I said, "Yes, of course. I would love to go do that." 

And so I ended up working at Second City and helping them with that youth program. And then one thing led to the next. And I ended up teaching the very first program for kiddos at Second City, which was like six-year-olds, which was basically herding cats. And you would do things like pretend grocery shopping and put things in carts, and pretend you're walking through pudding and space walks and stuff like that. So it was super fun and cute.

And then I started teaching the adults and teaching their programs. I believe it was A through E. I don't remember. And then their performance program. And was invited a couple times through their bizco. It was called bizco at the time, program to go do some more of the corporate training with people and facilitations. 

And then also met a whole other community of people who were putting together Chicago Sketch Fest, which I became one of the artistic producers of for a couple years. and I met an executive coach in that – And he was one of the producers with the money. And he invited me to start teaching and facilitating some of these more corporate organizations. And so I’ve been working with him freelance for 20 years now, something like that, teaching improv. He uses the Birkman Assessment, sometimes the DISC Assessment. He also is more of a C-suite executive coach. And he'll pull me in to work with their direct reports a lot or some of their managers by using improvisation as a tool for better communication. And so that's how I got the bug. That's how I ended up facilitating workshops with improv. 

And then from there people would ask, "Can you help this exec over here with their presentation?" Or, "Can you help this person over there with their presentation?" And I said, "Sure." And next thing I know I’m coaching people in presentation skills. And I love it. I love bringing the performing arts and the tools that we have as actors into these environments where they would probably not be introduced to these tools if they weren't actually seeking them out. So I get to trick them into doing acting exercises, right? It's fun. It's so fun. And they have these aha moments that I find really beautiful. I get to give somebody permission to show up vulnerably, authentically. And I give them permission to be able to tell their story and the importance of why the information they're conveying needs to be heard. And how to inspire or how to educate in a way that their audience is going to remember it. And where they can enjoy sharing it as well. So that was a very long answer.

Alex Cullimore: No, it's great.

Meridith Grundei: But that's how I ended up doing what I do. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, little squirrel, with the cheeks. Or chipmunks. It's like let's stuff more. Stuff more. Stuff more. Yeah, that's awesome. And it's funny, because we talked about before we started recording, we talked about how you help them work through their fears that are related to presentations, which I can't imagine anybody not feeling a little bit of fear when they're presenting no matter what the presentation is. And at the same time, the more I think about what you do, the more fear I feel of like, "Oh, God. What is she going to make me do?" 

Alex Cullimore: I think you have a new customer, because, Cristina, she's got to be pushed out of her comfort zone here.

Meridith Grundei: Yeah. Well, it's about getting comfortably uncomfortable and pushing – I mean, you become a better speaker, a great speaker, by getting uncomfortable. This is me tooting my own horn. But I feel like I do a great job of going into that room and meeting people with where they're at and then building from there. I don't come into the room with a prescribed way of doing something. Like you're going to follow my fancy acronym. And by the end of it, you're going to be a kick-ass speaker. I don't go in there in that way full force. I feel it's a process. And as long as people understand and commit to wanting to get better and knowing that it's a process, that it's not a quick fix solution, then when you have that mindset, you are bound to succeed. 

Alex Cullimore: So what do you see as some interesting, like, first resistance points? And it sounds like if there's anything in the spectrum, it have to people wherever they're at. But what are some of the interesting ones you kind of see over and over?

Meridith Grundei: Well, I would say some of the resistance when someone already thinks that they are good presenters because they've been doing it for a long period of time. But someone doesn't feel that way. And so I get hired to help that person, right? And so you offer solutions in baby steps. And you say, "Okay." And oftentimes someone will – When they come up with the answer on their own, and I’m not answering the question for them, or where they see that they could do the work and they make that realization, that's when the magic happens. 

Like, there have been times, though, where I’ve worked with people that have been resistant and they stay resistant. It doesn't matter how I pose the question or what exercise I give them. That's just the world that they're choosing to live in. And that's okay, right? Most of the time, though, I feel people are pretty happy to have somebody there to facilitate that process with them. 

Cristina Amigoni: As I’m walking through my own movie of working with you, even though I haven't done it yet, in my head. I got a movie in my head going on. I can see how it's both, like, "Oh God. I really need this help." And, "Oh my God. I really don't want to know how bad I am." And this is going to reveal that.

Meridith Grundei: That's so funny. I feel that people are their own worst critics. That we think we look worse than we actually look. And we worry – And I feel like part of it is we worry so much about what we look like that we forget quite often what we're actually there to do, which is to serve our audience. And that it's not about us. It's about them. It's about the value we're adding. It's about how we're going to inspire them to think differently or take action after a presentation, whatever that might be. So I love that you said that. Thank you.

Cristina Amigoni: I’m still in the movie.

Meridith Grundei: I love it. Okay. Good. Where are we in the movie? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, in the movie, we're at the point where I’m like, "Okay, maybe I should get past the fear of realizing how bad I am and embrace that there's always improvement. And something like this could definitely help me. And on the other side, I’ll be much happier." 

 Meridith Grundei: Yes. Yes. And I have a group coaching program that I started specifically for people who were like, "I don't know if I want to work one-on-one with a coach. I don't know what that looks like. That might be too vulnerable," who actually feels safer in groups. So then what I do there is I always start with an improv exercise, though, I don't say we're going to do an improv. We're not doing improv games. I throw out – Here, I’ll give an example. One exercise I do is, like, "Okay, somebody pick up the first thing that you see in front of you." And then we do a show and tell. That's all we do. And so I would pick up a random thing, which is a credit card that I haven't – It's a new one. And I haven't called the number yet to activate it. I don't know if I want to either, right? So I might tell you a story about this credit card. Actually, this is just a renewal card for – I have a property in Colorado. It's a house. And I rent it out, and it's an LLC. And so now you're learning a lot about me that you didn't even know off of this one thing that I picked up off of my desk. And I have four amazing tenants. And we get along very well. And it's a great relationship. And I am happy that those people are taking care of my house when I live in New York. So that's my little story.

So everyone would do an exercise like that. And then we learn a little bit about each other. And then we talk about what makes a good story after that. So there, they just did an improvised exercise where everyone has a story. They find out that they do have something indeed that is interesting to tell. And that something mundane like a credit card could actually lead to something that has a sense of feeling and purpose. 

Cristina Amigoni: You just sold us on the credit card. A renewal credit card nonetheless. 

Meridith Grundei: I think it's a debit card actually. I think it's a debit card. 

Alex Cullimore: So you mentioned you don't tell them they're going to do improv exercises. I know, I did a lot of things like acting and stuff in school. And every once in a while you run into the attitude of like, "Well, what are you going to do with that when you go?" Those are 100% the skills that I’ve used every day since then. Those were all of the important skills, like being able to communicate and talk with people. But I’m curious, like, do you feel like you have to avoid some of the language, like improv exercises? Or does that create its own barrier?

Meridith Grundei: It sometimes does. There's a woman, and maybe you both know her, Hillary Blair, who I’ve worked with. We were in clubhouse rooms together teaching applied improv. And I love how she framed it, where she would say, "Exercise game or activity." Because people will hear it differently. 

And so I’ve kind of co-opted that for myself, too. So when I introduce something, I say, "Here, we're going to do an exercise activity or game, however you hear that best. That's going to help us in this particular moment to communicate better in this particular situation." And that seems to help people and lowers the – Like, it helps the nervous system a little bit. And I like to also say, "And these are inclusive exercises. We're all doing this together." That's how improv works. We're going to yes and each other. We're going to make eye contact. We're going to support each other. Nobody is going to be – I’m not going to pick somebody and ask them to do something on the spot, especially in the very beginning, because I feel like it's gradual. We want to build a space that feels brave. And also, we want to build a space that we can trust each other. And that's what's so lovely about these forms, these improv structures that we get to use. So I hope that answers that question.

 Alex Cullimore: Yeah. No, that's great. I mean, we talk about it a lot with just various different types of coaching. So much of it is getting people out of their own way. And then you have to find out what their points of resistance are so they can have those lowered. So I'm just curious how that applies there. It's a super helpful world. And I love the idea of just creating the community first and getting this to do it in a group and getting people to connect on just understanding everyone is a person, everyone has something to say and something to listen to. So I love that. It's a great intro. I think I might start co-opting that exercise game or activity. That's a good way of describing it.

Meridith Grundei: Yes. And also, in a feedback process, too, is to give people permission to not have to have the complete thought or the complete answer. That they can rough draft their thoughts. That they could have a quarter thought if they want. But it's about just being able to process something back and find the value for the exercise, and how it's applicable to the real-life situation. So how is this exercise going to apply to my day-to-day work or my day-to-day life? And so then we spend a lot of time in that debrief portion of the exercise. So it's not all – I mean, I still find the debrief fun and games, but it's not all fun and games. Like, we're doing some applications here. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's the real work part.

Meridith Grundei: Real work. Real work.

Alex Cullimore: The movie just changed for Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It's like, "What? There's real work? I’m not just standing up and doing random things?" 

Meridith Grundei: Yes.

Cristina Amigoni: Interestingly enough, that's an actually comforting part of the movie in my head.

Meridith Grundei: Oh, good. I’m glad. See? I knew there would be a moment in that movie that wasn't all climatic.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. The standing up and speaking, not so much. But the debrief afterwards, yes. 

Alex Cullimore: So do you get engagements that are specifically like for one presentation? And obviously, you get to learn skills that can apply for other ones. But do you have been brought on for specific presentations or more as, "Hey, this person is going to have to give a lot of presentations." 

 Meridith Grundei: I do. I do a lot of one-on-ones. I work with individuals who work oftentimes for an organization and they want to step up their career and they want to get better at presenting, because they know how important that is. And so I will work with them often on – Usually they'll bring to me, "Here's a past presentation that I’ve worked on. Tell me what I could do differently for the next time." So we'll talk a lot about slide preparation. We'll talk about how to incorporate story or metaphor to strengthen the presentation. Or they'll bring one to me that they need to get ready. And it's a pretty high-stakes presentation. So that's a lot of my client base.

And then I also work for another company called Hillside Communications, where we work a lot with people in pharma, in the medical communities, where we help them take really complicated data that's usually compliant, very didactic, and help them find the story and the need-to-knows to make that presentation more compelling so that they can better educate, whether that'd be their advisory boards or their clients. So it's a wide range. But those are specifically, yeah, I would say people who want to level up their careers. A lot of people in tech contact me. And then working in that pharma, in that medical industry.

Alex Cullimore: I’m now just lost in the idea of how fun this work sounds. This sounds like a blast.

Cristina Amigoni: I know. 

 Meridith Grundei: So much fun.

Cristina Amigoni: It does sound like a blast. Yeah. So what are some of the biggest obstacles that people have to maybe undo or get past by thinking, like, "Well, I’ve done presentations." Especially the ones that come to you who have done a lot of presentations. And so they come in and says, like, "Well, like, this is how I present information." And everybody needs to know all these things. And you kind of have to almost undo what they've learned this whole time and redo so that the presentation actually makes sense for the receiving end more than the giving end.

Meridith Grundei: Well, there's two things, I would say, come up the most. The first one is the ability to be able to tell a story in a vulnerable human way is very challenging for people. I feel that – I don't know if this is true. This is my own assumption. I feel we see things done a certain way over and over and over and over again. So we think that that's what people – What their expectations are is for us to do it the way that we've seen it done over and over and over again. 

And I don't know about you, but most organizations I’ve worked with, when I see a presentation, I would say nine times out of ten it's going to be pretty similar to the last presentation I just saw or how it was done the last time. And so we get this preconceived idea of how something should be done. So it's breaking that mold. It's getting people to go, "You don't have to do it that way. You can actually do it differently. And when you do it differently, that is when you're going to stand out in your organization."

As a thought leader, as somebody who can creatively take on something in a different way, and story is a huge part of that. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable. Allowing yourself to talk about actual feelings. Not talk around feelings, which often happens. So a lot of the time it's about me getting people to understand, first of all, what do you notice in yourself? 

When you just told me this brief story – I’m just going to use the debit card example again. Like, yeah, it's a rectangular piece of plastic with numbers on it and it says Visa, and it's connected to an account that's connected to your house. That's great information to know. But how does that make you feel? Well, I guess it makes me feel fortunate. Tell me why it makes you feel fortunate. I feel fortunate that I have a house that I own a property that it's given me this abundance and this ability to be able to live in New York. Okay. Well, what does that feel like? Like, in your body, what does that feel? Like, what do you mean in my body? Like, well, are you happy about that? I’m very happy about that. And so do you feel happy? You feel gratitude? You feel – But where in your body does that feel? Oh, I guess right in my chest. Your heart. Oh, okay. Right? 

So I go through a little bit of a process with people to try to get them to get to like the meat of it's not just a rectangular credit card. There's a story behind that, and it evokes a feeling. And we need to be able to talk about that feeling because that's how we relate to each other. And there's going to be people in your audience who are going to relate to that story more than the content. And what we want is for them to leave remembering your content and they're going to do that through emotion. So even if they leave not remembering the data points, they're going to leave remembering that you feel gratitude towards the abundance in your life because you own this property. I mean, this is kind of I’m making out a story on the fly speaking of improv. But getting to like, really, the core of something is hard for people. We're not taught to do that often. So that's the first part.

The second one is the slide deck, which is also complicated. Like, nine times out of ten people come to me with very, very busy slides. A lot of data. A lot of information. And a ton of slides. And they're talking to the slides. They're not talking to me. And they don't know the information well enough to where they can't be – They're relying on the slides. So that's not, to me, a presentation. That's just, "Here's some slides, and I’m regurgitating some information for you because I was told that I need to." And no one listens. I mean, honestly, do we really retain anything from those slides, from those presentations? No. 

So what my argument is, is do a really great presentation, because you're going to save your organization a ton of money. Because every time you give a poor presentation, you have to circle back, you have to have more meetings. You have to do potentially a second presentation. You have people that are confused. Or your customers aren't buying. And then so you're losing money. It's affecting your ROI. So those are the two things, find story, and let's get simple with those slides because you don't need them all.

Cristina Amigoni: I love all that. And I’m guilty of busy slides, and yet I know I need to do simple slides. 

Meridith Grundei: It's hard. There's a really great book Garr Reynolds wrote several years ago called Presentation Zen. It's brilliant. It's really a wonderful – That's a great resource for your listeners who are like, "How do I simplify my presentations?" Well, you can hire me or you can go by this, Presentation Zen.

Alex Cullimore: Why not both? 

Meridith Grundei: Or both. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, why not both? 

Meridith Grundei: Or about. Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: And this is a complete turning into a full discovery call for me. Well, especially because Alex and I have a big presentation coming up in April. 

Meridith Grundei: Oh, brilliant. Yay! 

Cristina Amigoni: That's all I’m thinking about, is like, "Oh, God. How do we make that memorable?" I guess how long do people work with you on, say, a presentation? 

Meridith Grundei: It varies. I’ve had my friend Remy. He works for – I think it's San Francisco State. Anyway, I don't remember. But it's a very technical presentation. So he's like, "I have 45 minutes. Help me now." So that's one example. And I did. And it helped. And then usually, typically, I have a two-month package or a three-month month package. And people will hire me to help them and guide them, because I do feel it's a process and not a quick fix. But sometimes that's what people need. And then, often, we will reevaluate after that three months and/or two months and be like, "Okay, what more do you feel like you need? Do you feel like you're in a good place?" And what often happens is people will go away for a while. See if they can integrate some of the skill sets that we've learned and that I’ve taught them. And then I would say about 50% come back. Or they join my group coaching program.

Cristina Amigoni: So how does improv apply to this? So the storytelling is a lot of people that especially work on helping others with presentation skills. They talk about the storytelling. Build that into a story. Talk about your personal experiences. How do you then put this from an improv perspective? Because that's in kind of a different layer or another layer to this.

Meridith Grundei: Yeah, improv gives them the opportunity to step into a space that feels a little bit uncomfortable and gives them something to push against. It's been really wonderful watching students. And I have one in particular that I’m thinking of right now who started off in the group coaching program with me. And she would – At the very beginning, she would just stop. Like, if she didn't have an answer to something or she couldn't make something up on the spot, she just would stop and be like, "I can't. I don't know what I’m doing." And she would freeze, if you will.

And through the process of showing up, which is what you need to do, is show up and be uncomfortable and give yourself that permission, I would say six months later, she's still in the group. She's amazing. She's awesome. She jumps in. She offers something immediately. She's not second guessing herself anymore. She's written a keynote that she's going to deliver that she said she's going to practice every day this year. And I believe her. And it's pretty amazing. It's pretty cool to watch the transformation of people coming in super shy, afraid, not overly confident, and to see the growth when they choose to show up in these places that I feel I’ve cultivated a very brave and a safe environment for people to do that and to – It's about messing up. It's about failing. Failing fast, if you will. And then trying it again. And I give opportunity to try it again. And there's no right or wrong answer. There's no real-world consequences. We're just doing this exercise activity or game.

Cristina Amigoni: That's very much needed, I would say, in the corporate world, even outside of presentations. It's having that safe space to just fail and try again.

Meridith Grundei: And then notice – I always go back to this Allen Ginsberg quote, "Notice what you notice." From doing that activity, what do you notice about yourself? What did you learn about yourself? What is it that you can do – Were you holding your breath? Oh, because oftentimes when people are having that fight-or-flight response, you hold. You get rigid. Everything, your body. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I hold, I get neck pains, right? So it teaches us some of our physiological responses to stress so that when we get into a real-world situation, we're better equipped to negotiate it. And that's what I love. It's always the reflection back on what do you notice. 

Alex Cullimore: And so much of it is being in your body. I mean, it makes it from a way more authentic presentation and easier to go to people. I do like the idea of practicing a presentation many times. But if you practice enough that you only become robotic about it, you lose that connection, you lose that emotion. So how do you coach people with that once they've gotten to a point of practicing maybe to the point of they don't feel it anymore, or they're not feeling it as much? 

Meridith Grundei: Yeah. Well, I feel like that's too – It's so funny. So I got on TikTok like a few months ago because I was just like, "Oh, the kids are doing it. I might as well do it too." And it's been fun though. I have now like 34,000 followers on TikTok, which is not at all what I had expected. But I’m embracing it. So I just recently did a TikTok about this. And that's why I brought that up, Alex, which is people will practice because they're told, "Practice, practice, practice." And they get great with their presentation. But then when it comes to the presenting piece of it, they're really great at telling me the information. I mean, I’m doing air quotes for your listeners. But not being performative about it. Or we're like edutainers these days. We need to be edutainers. 

So then that's where learning vocal variation is important. How to find variation in your voice? That's when learning how to use your breath properly is important. That's when learning how to embrace the pause is important. That's when knowing how to physically show up and be present and know how to own a space. And when I say own a space, I don't mean just a stage. I mean, the conference room, the Zoom room, the virtual landscape. We need to know how to show up in those places just as – And that's just as important as knowing your content. So when you merge those two things together, then I feel and you feel confident in those two places. Then that's when you can have more fun and you can find the formlessness that you're talking about and shed some of that rigidity if you will. But you have to work all parts, right? You have to practice all of the things. Not just the content. 

 Alex Cullimore: Like i said, it's like improv. At some point, something's going to go different. Even if it's your presentation and nobody else is talking, you'll feel the energy of the room. It'll feel different. People respond to something differently than you thought. And that'll throw you off, unless you're ready to just kind of roll with those punches. And as I love taking improv and performance as like getting to that more comfortable authentic space, I love the direction.

Meridith Grundei: Oh my God, 100%. And you never know what's going to go wrong either. I mean, we're such a tech-heavy world these days. Like your tech could go wrong. Your mic could go out. Your monitor could go down. Like, there's so many things that could happen. You just have to embrace it without being apologetic, because that takes up time when we sit there and, like, "Oh my God. Sorry. I’m just going to work out my tech here while you're all sitting here. So, sorry." Right? It's like embracing it. Like, "Hey, my tech's not working. Move over tech." Because it's not about that, right? It's about your audience.

Cristina Amigoni: It's so true. Yeah. It's not about, "Oh, let me spend 20 minutes trying to get the monitor to work." When it doesn't work, let's just get into it. 

Meridith Grundei: I mean, if it has to turn into an audio presentation, great. They can't see you now. I mean, think of it as a bonus.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: I imagine a TED Talk in a dark auditorium. 

Meridith Grundei: Right. There's a form in the improv world. It's called the bat. You just sit on the floor and everyone closes their eyes and you perform. 

Cristina Amigoni: There you go.

Alex Cullimore: I like that. 

Meridith Grundei: Yeah. I mean, it wakes up people's senses. Am I right?

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, when the monitor doesn't work, it's like, "Okay, everybody close your eyes, and I’m going to just going to talk. You don't have anything to look at anyway.

Meridith Grundei: I mean, how cool would it be if you were watching a presentation and something like that happened? And that person unapologetically just shifted gears and said, "Hey, everyone close your eyes." I mean, that would perk you up, wouldn't it?

Cristina Amigoni: Well, not only. But then you're not dependent on the slides. So now the slides that are on away with the encyclopedia per slide type of slides, then it's like, "Okay, now you have to tell the story." Because people can't just sit there and read for 10 minutes while you're talking and there's this noise bothering them from reading what's on the slide. 

 Meridith Grundei: The slides that they read they don't remember anything.

Cristina Amigoni: Which is usually how it feels when the slides are – When the slides are so busy, that's how it feels. It's like, "No. No. Shut it. I need to read." 

Meridith Grundei: Right. We can't listen and read at the same time. And oftentimes, what happens, they're talking and they're not saying exactly what's on the slide. They have their own version of what's on the slide. So you're like, "Where are we? I don't even know where we're at." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, yeah. 

Alex Cullimore: You just become the audience fact checker where you're like, "Is that the same? Is that what they're saying? Okay. All right. Well, I know that one didn't seem it. All right. I abstracted entirely." 

Meridith Grundei: I’m going to check my email. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that happens all the time. 

Meridith Grundei: That is a really great thing I should watch on TikTok. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Let me watch Meridith actually telling me what a presentation should look like. You keep this presentation. 

Meridith Grundei: While I’m watching a presentation – I think I’d left something in the oven. Hold on. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I actually had a present – I had to give a presentation a couple of years ago in a project where – It wasn't my project. I was just helping out. But the skill for the slides was, basically, the more content you can put on the slide, the better the presentation is going to be. So it’s like let's see who's going to win here. And it turned out to be a case of they were my slides in the sense that I put the words on them. But it was in no way or shape or form how I would have presented the information. It was kind of imposed on me, "This is what you're going to say. This is how you're going to say it." And what you're going to present. 

And so because I couldn't stand behind what was done, even though I was a presenter, I would start – I would pull up a slide and then tell people. I’m like, "Okay, I’m going to let you read for the next few minutes. And then when you're done reading, tell me, and then I’m going to actually present the information so that we can talk and have a conversation about it. Because otherwise, this is not going to work." 

Meridith Grundei: I’m glad you brought that up, because I feel that happens often, too, where I have had people come to me who say, "I have to present this particular material." That's a lot in the you know pharma industry, too, because it has to go through approval and go through legal. Some companies will have already gone through HR and then they have to go through a whole another process to have it approved. And so when you get to a situation where you're like, "This is not the presentation I would personally put together, that I would want to present." I feel like you brought up a really great point. And I feel like you negotiated that really well. But like to read it so that you get all that information. And then I’m going to share with you my perspective of it. 

So the other advice I would give for people is to figure out what is the one need to know on that slide, and present that, especially when they're busy. It makes your life so much easier. Also, I don't know if you've heard of Guy Kawasaki. But he has the 10, 20, 30 rule, which is no presentation should have more than 10 slides, should be longer than 20 minutes, and each slide should have a 30-point font so that your audience can read it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, I like that.

Meridith Grundei: So they're for your listeners, if you want to experiment with the 10, 20, 30 rule, there you go, as a structure. 

Alex Cullimore: So you talked a couple times about making it about the audience. And that's a great tip. What does that mean to you? What does it mean to make a presentation about the audience? 

Meridith Grundei: It means every audience is going to be different. So often, sometimes people have the same presentation that they need to deliver over and over and over again, right? And maybe it's to different teams or different departments. Know your audience. Know what their pain points are. And then cater your presentation to that particular audience. Because it's about them. It's about serving them. It's not about you. And you need to take that additional time and effort to make sure that you're crafting something that is going to resonate with your particular audience. So that's what I mean by that, is how you can serve and add value and what do you want them to do should be top of mind. 

Alex Cullimore: That's right. Do you let people in on any strategies that you use to get to know your audience to understand what they're looking for?

Meridith Grundei: That's a great question. Well, I feel like you need to do your due diligence. So when you're giving presentations, let's say you're giving it to – So maybe you speak to people in marketing. Like, tell me what some of the pain points around this particular topic are for you. What is it that you don't feel that you have enough information about? Whatever it is, get curious. I feel curious about your audience. Like, see if you can get in touch with somebody. Ask them questions. And then start to cater your presentation so that you're better serving them and you're not making assumptions about them. You're not making assumptions about where that team is at, or what their needs are, or what their pain points are. But that you're in dialogue first. And if it's an audience you don't know, it's an audience that maybe you're delivering a presentation for a conference, then who are the people attending the conference? Find out. Ask a lot of questions – I think curiosity is underrated. 

Cristina Amigoni: I agree. Yes. Very much underrated. 

Alex Cullimore: I want that on a poster on a wall. I like that a lot.

Meridith Grundei: Curiosity is underrated. That's my biggest – 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I think it's mistaken for lack of expertise, lack of confidence. It's mistaken for like, "Oh, if you ask questions, it means you're not an expert. If you're not an expert, I shouldn't be listening to you." 

Alex Cullimore: I always think that's funny.

Cristina Amigoni: I completely disagree. 

Alex Cullimore: How are you supposed to become an expert when you're not asking any questions and have no curiosity.

Cristina Amigoni: Osmosis. Osmosis. Yes. 

Meridith Grundei: I do feel people put that pressure on themselves, that they need to be the expert, and that they look like they're not if they ask the questions. 

 Alex Cullimore: Which can ironically backfire. And then you sometimes look like not an expert, because you didn't ask a question, which is unfortunate.

Meridith Grundei: Exactly. Yes. Yes.

Cristina Amigoni: And it's interesting, because on the receiving end, the meetings, presentations, whatever they may be, whether there's slides or not, I find that I am more drawn to continuing a conversation, especially in the sales world, with somebody who spends more time being curious about who we are, what we are, what we need, than telling me who they are. Then it's like, "Okay, now I actually want to talk to you more. And I’m interested in finding out more about your product and how it could help me." But when you come in and spend half an hour telling me about your company, I’m like, "You haven't asked me a question yet. Do you even know who I am? How do you even know that the product or service is actually going to help me? You don't know who I am." 

Meridith Grundei: That, I would imagine, happens often.

Alex Cullimore: It's like the in-person version of a sales email, like cold email. 

Meridith Grundei: Right. You could have sent this via LinkedIn. You just flooded my inbox on LinkedIn. You saved us a lot of time. 

Cristina Amigoni: Oh, and it's more than two sentences. Something that it was unsolicited. I’m not going to read it. So there you go. Same time.

Meridith Grundei: No. No. Well, it's interesting, because I always say to people, I always recommend, and people take it with a grain of salt. But to skip the introduction of who you are at the very top of a presentation. And just to start with the story or start with how you're serving them or the problem you're going to solve for them. And then you talk about you just for the credibility piece. And then you go back into the presentation again. 

So often, what happens is I watch people begin a presentation, like, "Here's who I am. This is what I do. This is how long I’ve been –" You lose me, right? There's so many more creative unique ways that we can begin that have nothing to do with us. But it's about, again, back to serving your audience, which is helpful in these sales interactions as well.

Cristina Amigoni: It's so true. I remember the one – You posted something a few weeks ago about please do not start a presentation with, "Thank you for joining us today. This is what we're going to talk about." 

Meridith Grundei: Good morning. I'm so glad you're here. Are you? Are you really?

Cristina Amigoni: I'm so glad you're here. And it was a challenge. And your post would say, "Find another way to start." And so I actually sent it to Alex because of this presentation we have in April. And I told him, "We are not starting a presentation in April this way. So we got to find another way to start it." What is it?

Meridith Grundei: Alex, what is it? Did you come up with it yet? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, we're going to carry boomboxes over our heads, get a Rocky soundtrack and then – No. I'm just kidding. No. I don't know what we're going to do yet. But it will be very fun. 

Meridith Grundei: One woman reached out to me and she said that she loved my post and it reminded her of a time she started a presentation where she was talking about helmet safety. And she started with two watermelons on stage. And one of them had a football helmet on it and the other didn't. And she walked out on stage and she slammed the hammer against the one with the helmet and slammed a hammer against the one without it, and it burst obviously all over the stage. And that's how she started her presentation. I was like, "That's dramatic. That got their attention. Sure did. Sure did." 

Another woman I know does – She uses a keto as a way to enter into leadership and work with leadership in teams. And she does a forward roll into the stage. That's how she starts hers. So yeah, there's some fun, engaging, entertaining ways that we can – Impactful ways that we can start those presentations, for sure. 

Cristina Amigoni: Our challenge just got higher. And I’m like, "Okay, now I'm going to like – 

Meridith Grundei: Like, do we have a budget for watermelons?

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Equivalent to smashing melons for our topic. 

Alex Cullimore: What's a human first forward roll? How does one do this?

Meridith Grundei: I mean, you can both do one from stage left and stage right and then meet in the middle. We'll choreograph it. 

Cristina Amigoni: We can bring our cats. Let them run around and something happens. 

Meridith Grundei: I wonder if that's been done before. 

Alex Cullimore: It's the element of fun is something I feel like I continually forget that you can put in. And it always – As long as it's obviously not a very serious presentation about how the company has lost a bunch of the last quarter or something. That might be a harder one to sell fun in. But in any other conversation, if it doesn't need to be approved by the legal department of a pharmaceutical company, you can have a lot more fun with it. And I i feel like I forget that constantly and every once in a while I remember like, "Oh, we could actually just –" Like, Christina and I are laughing and having a good time on this podcast on wherever we get to do. Then you sometimes enter a work presentation or you write something up, you're like, "Well, I have to make this pretty stodgy. Let's go. Let's just have bullet points." 

Cristina Amigoni: Let's bore people to death —

Meridith Grundei: I wore my black. I wore my gray. I got my bullet points. 

Alex Cullimore: Let me get the buttons all the way up. All right.

Meridith Grundei: Oh yeah, and I’m going to put on a persona that I think you want to see.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Because I’m supposed to be the expert.

Meridith Grundei: Because I’m the expert, and this is what experts look like. 

Alex Cullimore: Experts are renowned not to have fun. 

Meridith Grundei: We're not allowed to have any fun. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. To be boring. 

Meridith Grundei: No. None. 

Alex Cullimore: It's the tragedy of expertise.

Meridith Grundei: It's we're all very serious here. 

Alex Cullimore: You can trust me. I haven't laughed in three years. Okay. All right. 

Cristina Amigoni: Clearly.

Meridith Grundei: Clearly, yes, yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Oh, so fascinating. But yeah, like it's that – Back to my move in my head. 

Meridith Grundei: Love it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I love the fact that you have found a way to give people permission. And you've said this quite a bit. Give people permission to be human. To have fun with the presentation. To smash watermelons on stage. To whatever you do and have that confidence that that will work. Because I think that's where I still see the gap that I am lacking, is that, intellectually, I know that would entertain me as a participant. As a presenter, I have no idea how to bridge that gap to get to like how can I feel confident doing that? As opposed to – I don't know. But I guess what the other side of it is.

Meridith Grundei: One opportunity, what's so wonderful, is the ability to just do it once, right? And so something I’ve done for people in the past is like, "Let's put together – Let's do a dry run of it. Let's put together an audience. You do an invited audience and you'll do your presentation for them. And then you get to see how it feels before you go in front of whatever." If you're like a public speaker and you're going to go do this keynote for the first time, like, get a test audience. Get your family. Get some stuffed animals. Yeah, you get to do it for other people. 

But I love what you said about how you intellectually can see it from the perspective of the audience. And I feel that that's a really good point that you bring up, which is do put yourself in the shoes of the audience and ask yourself the question, "Would I want to see the presentation that I’ve put together? Would I be engaged by that?" And if the answer is no, then that's your opportunity to shift it and to stand out and to do things differently." So I love that you said that. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's a very good, very good suggestion. 

Alex Cullimore: I have ideas for the start of our presentation. I think it's a pretty good one.

Cristina Amigoni: Ooh! Are you doing a spoiler alert? None of the people at the conference are going to be listening to our podcast anyway. 

Meridith Grundei: Well, you're building some suspense here, which is what I love, Alex. Because now, people, they're going to be curious about what you both come up with.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And we'll see if it – See which version of what ideas end up coming out. 

Meridith Grundei: There's going to be a whole thing. I mean, this can be your social media for the next couple months. Like what will it be? What will be our intro? 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, we crash and burn. Or just crash and walk away. 

Meridith Grundei: Will they be using melons?

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Will there be melons?

Alex Cullimore: I think if we don't have a Gallagher type fruit gag at some point in there, I think we've missed an opportunity. 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, this is awesome. And I could unpack this all day long. So in order to leave the suspense on what we're actually going to be doing on this presentation, which is in-person. So unless somebody's video recording it, our audience is going to miss it. But where can people find you? Well, where can I find you, first off? Let's prioritize here.

 Meridith Grundei: I’m on the socials. In fact, we know each other on the LinkedIn. You can find me at Grundei Coaching. So that's spelled G-R-U-N-D-E-Icoaching.com. Or you can Google my name, Meridith Grundei. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. And you can find me on TikTok with the youngsters. And you can also find me – I’m now on Facebook. I got off of it for two years. And I just got back on it. So you can now find me there, too. You can find me everywhere, Instagram. You can find me in New York in my bedroom. 

Cristina Amigoni: Unless your daughter locks you out. 

Meridith Grundei: Unless my daughter locks me out. 

Alex Cullimore: Look for a fire escape that you can hold on to.

Meridith Grundei: Totally. Totally. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. You can see Meridith climbing up the fire escapes. Awesome. And we'll have all that in the show notes.

Meridith Grundei: Oh, fabulous. Thank you. And the fire escape location.

Alex Cullimore: Yes.

Cristina Amigoni: And the fire escape location. Maybe that could be your TikTok. Every week you're going to choose a new fire escape. You're going to film it. And we're going to have people guess ahead of time, "Where's Meridith going to be?"

Meridith Grundei: Like, where's Waldo in New York City?

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah.

Alex Cullimore: Like the old letterman, like will it float? But can you reach it? 

Meridith Grundei: Can you reach it? 

Alex Cullimore: Sort of jumping contest. 

Meridith Grundei: And me being 5'4", probably not. 

Cristina Amigoni: Start practicing your high jumps.

Meridith Grundei: I will be practicing my high humps. 

Alex Cullimore: Some parkour going. 

Meridith Grundei: We all have something we can practice, and it's a process. Just to leave your listeners with that one more time. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. We do have one last question for our guests. We usually ask them, what does authenticity mean to you?

Meridith Grundei: What does authenticity mean to me? Oh, authenticity to me means showing up as yourself unapologetically and allowing people to see your heart. Yeah, allowing yourself to be vulnerable and show up authentically. Yeah, that's it. Show up unapologetically. Be yourself. Allow all of your quirks to shine through and be present. Being present. I love that question, because we hear that word a lot these days, don't we? 

Cristina Amigoni: I know. Yeah. And I don't know how many people actually think about what their definition is until they're asked. 

Meridith Grundei: Yeah. It's a good question. It's a very good question. I bet you've gotten some amazing answers.

Cristina Amigoni: We do. And everybody's answer is slightly different. That's what's amazing about it. Every answer, I guess, it's authentic, because authenticity is not one formula. 

Meridith Grundei: No. It's a great question. Thank you.

Cristina Amigoni: I do have one last question though. I prepared a question. Okay. I love the lights behind you. What's the pattern?

Meridith Grundei: Oh, it's not really a thought out – It was an improvised pattern. 

Cristina Amigoni: Okay. 

 Meridith Grundei: I just wanted some string lights to kind of frame the background a little bit because this is – You know, when you're in a New York apartment – My husband got the office because he's the musician with the gear. So I have my cute little hutch desk set up in my bedroom, which it's great. It does its thing. And if I went and stood by that artwork that's behind me, I look really tiny next to it. But it looks like not that big on the Zoom call.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, it looks awesome. I love the background.

Alex Cullimore: Meridith Grundei, thank you so much for joining. This is truly a very fun conversation. And I’m so glad we got to meet and connect on this. I wish you all the best of luck in New York, with the presentations, with everything.

Meridith Grundei: Oh my goodness. And thank you both so much. I really appreciate this opportunity to speak with the both of you. This was very fun.

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. Yes, I’m sure we'll be talking to you soon.

Meridith Grundei: Excellent. I love it. All right. Well, take care.

Alex Cullimore: And thanks everybody for listening. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you.

Meridith Grundei: Thank you.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

 Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Raechel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas or questions. You can reach us at podcast wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always uncover the human.

[END]