The Heart of Leadership: Listening, Trust, and Growth with Bonnie Iserman

"Bonnie Iserman: I think the authenticity is like seeing beyond the person into kind of who they are.”

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore.

Both: Let’s dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hello. Friday. 

Alex Cullimore: Friday, our usual recording day, despite the fact that we released on Wednesdays. 

Cristina Amigoni: I know. Yes. It's been a while since we've had a guest on Friday. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. Yeah, today we got to have Bonnie Iserman on the podcast. Very interesting conversation. Just generally about leadership, servant leadership. And a lot of great topics around what it means to hold space and why that's important for people. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, yeah, really fascinating. Even just flipping the script on it's not just about what the leader does as a servant leader, but it's how the individual feels when that is served up, I guess, pun intended. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And she talks even a little bit – just a little hint towards the ending, but talks a little bit about leadership being a friendship. Leadership is a relationship. Leadership is trust. I think people throw out things like servant leadership because it is a way to get towards trust. But, really, you're just doing all the usual things that require trust. Required to be had to build trust. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And it goes a long. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: It does. Well, enjoy. 

Alex Cullimore: Enjoy. 

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today, we are joined by Bonnie Iserman. Welcome to the podcast, Bonnie. 

Bonnie Iserman: Thank you. Grateful to be here. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, welcome. 

Alex Cullimore: We're excited to have you. Why don't you give us a little background on who you are? What brought you here? A little bit of your story. Who is Bonnie Iserman? 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. Gosh, that's a great question. That's a great question. And there's so many ways to take that. But I guess I can say that, wow, the way that you asked that – I'm sorry. It's hard. It's hard to kind of – 

Alex Cullimore: We opened it real fast. 

Bonnie Iserman: I guess it's like this – because this is Uncover the Human podcast and it's kind of about the human part of it. So I'll just say this, growing up, I attempted to at least keep my eyes on things that gripped me. Because to me, that told me something was there and it was worth looking at. And I would just look at those things a little bit longer, maybe like art, you know? 

And I'm the youngest of seven. And it seemed to me that when I would have encounters with different leaders and I would see them doing something meaningful, there was something that like really lit up in me, and I wanted to at least pursue that. I didn't totally know what I wanted. I just knew that, as I would kind of have a vision, maybe it would just kind of unfold a little bit more, at least as I would move forward. 

And so, there were just different encounters that I had with leaders where they did meaningful things. And I think one of the things that really drives me is service and adding value and servant leadership. And so, when leaders today talk about servant leadership, they talk about it in terms of what the leader ought to be doing to demonstrate it. But I don't think that they remind people enough what happens for the individual who's watching the behavior be modeled. Because I think that's really where the story is. And those weren't little encounters that I had where I said yes to maybe serving or helping. And then I was maybe halfway in, halfway out. And then I would see leaders do things that were just so impactful and it would tell me I can do that. I can do that too. 

I actually have a degree in ministry and I was in ministry for a while after I finished my degree. And when I left, I told myself, "If I'm never in ministry again, I will serve somebody's vision like I felt like I needed." Because of that positioning, I knew kind of what I needed. And I also was the type to not really, maybe let's say delegate well, or I didn't want to put anybody in a position where they felt obligated, especially in ministry, where they felt like they were answering to me somehow. Because that's not freedom. 

And so, at the same time, because I had like that level of insight, I suddenly like knew what a leader really needed. There was this aspect of like a servant leadership where the head leader, let's say, comes down and he does something really incredible in front of everybody. He doesn't ask for accolades. Doesn't make anybody feel bad. It's truly an active servant leadership. He simply models it. And the feeling there is so authentic. 

And then there's this aspect of how do we serve that leader? Because it's needed. And if he's a servant leader, he's probably not saying that a ton. And so, that can involve some really tough conversations. But all of that to say, I didn't realize I was setting myself up for success. Because when I got into the business world and I had that mindset, I would buy into the vision. I would ask – in the interviews, I don't always think people will answer this 100%. But I would be like, "I'm interviewing you too. I'm ready to interview you." You know? And so, I would ask a couple of key questions. One of them was, "Are people here going to be reluctant to give me the tools I need to be successful?" 

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great question. 

Bonnie Iserman: Which we were talking about that before, Alex. That matters. That matters. Because it feels so heavy on a leader when he gets somewhere or she gets somewhere and they don't have the tools to be successful, and then whatever the project they're doing doesn't succeed. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah, it's heavy. All that to say, I found myself just moving up in leadership pretty quickly. I still had a lot to learn. And I'll just say this one other piece was in college was when I really began to read leadership books. And those were something that gripped me. And so, I just kept going towards that. And then I would also aim at things that made me uncomfortable because I knew that they would grow me. 

I played piano a lot in high school and in different settings. And what I would notice was when I had to perform, my adrenaline would go up. And because of that, I would understand what I was doing that much more like the next day. And granted that happens through consistent practice, but also in that moment where everything goes up. And so, I would go ahead and go after things that made me a little uncomfortable because I knew I would grow. 

Cristina Amigoni: That makes a lot of sense, for sure. 

Bonnie Iserman: Who I am now? I started a business this year. And I would say we're talking about like authenticity today and uncovering the human. I think what's really important that oftentimes we feel like we can't highlight is like the mistakes we've made and what we've learned from those, which it's just very helpful. It's very helpful for young leaders to see a leader do that. 

I was speaking at an event in Kentucky once and it was with a group of leaders in the main room. At the very end, the CEO was like, "Guys, I need to take a moment to apologize to you." And I was a lot younger. And so, I was like, "No, it's okay." I like immediately chimed in, "No. It's fine. You're doing great." And he was like, "No, Bonnie, hold on a minute." He was like, "I need to apologize to you." And not only that, he said, "Hold on a minute, it's okay for me to own this. It's okay." That's just another moment that just like struck me. There was something very true about that where people don't just learn when you tell stories about how you're the hero. They learn when you're authentic. And that was a really cool experience. 

What I like to do is have a few conversations with people and mirror back to them what I'm hearing in the form of an advisory business. Either business plan or an advisory mirror in terms of their priorities and what they want to do. Oftentimes people have that up here, but they don't have it on something that they can begin to iterate. I'm thinking in terms of how do I get to know this person? And from a few conversations, take that and put it into something. That when they look at it, they're like, "Oh my, God, you're in my head. You get what I'm doing. And thank you for putting this out on paper. And now I can begin to iterate with my team and really make this happen." I think in a way, I'm attempting to fill that spot, but with multiple small businesses and maybe larger businesses in the future. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's really cool and very necessary.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Sounds very familiar. That sounds like basically what we have happened upon that is fairly successful and it's exciting to see somebody else who has happened upon basically the same idea where you can do this listening, you can do this reflection and it becomes this clarifying – like the water filter for their own thoughts and make sure they have some kind of clear vision at the end of it. And I love how you said it. Are you in my head now? Because you realize what I'm trying to say. And there's something really powerful about that for people in being seen. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. We were talking before and the other times that we've met and you mentioned you're coaching leaders on leadership. And I'm sure you have some incredible stories where there's like these light bulb moments for people. What do some of those kind of look like? Because I'm curious for you as you begin to kind of get your foot in the door. I'm iterating something myself as I'm helping people iterate, and it's interesting. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I think we've seen a variety of light bulb moments, hopefully, and doesn't always happen. But at least one little light bulb moment happens in every conversation. But there's something about, I guess, much deeper that I think we've noticed, which is you mentioned how a servant leader shows up in a certain way and makes the individual feel in a certain way. And I love the fact that you mentioned that like one of the characteristics of a successful servant leader is – I would say a successful leader. Take the sermon out. Is you don't make other people feel bad? But who's serving the leader to be able to do that? And one of the pieces that we've noticed is that serving the leader includes giving the space for them to feel heard and be able to process that. Those lightbulb moments typically come up when that space is available, which is a lot of what we provide, hopefully. Our intention is to provide that space where they feel heard, because they're still people too. Whatever the servant leader and the leader provides to others, they also need to. 

And so, those are the light bulb moments where you can see the perspective starting to change. You can see some of the habits or the default mindset, the autopilot mindset starting to shift because of that space of feeling heard. If somebody is typically a pessimist or typically resisting ideas as they come out and you start seeing those shifts of, "Oh, now I'm going to ask a curious question," instead of shooting it down, those are those moments that I've noticed at least, that you can start shifting how people are showing up because they're shifting how they're thinking about things. 

Bonnie Iserman: You made it very, very clear. When you make them feel heard. What book was I just reading? I think it's called Just Listen. He said like, "When you feel heard, your body, your mind has this ability to kind of dissipate that defense mechanism and go into, "Okay. what next?" 

You're helping people kind of go out of autopilot. I don't want to get too detailed. Or I do, if that's okay. But have you noticed a trend? Because it sounded like, too, one of the times we talked was you have put together a way to capture data internally as well as your coaching. Is that accurate? 

Alex Cullimore: It depends on what you mean by data. We have the ability to – we use a lot of subjective scales, which it turns out helps people a lot just understand where they are. A lot of people think they need something super quantitative and something super – just this is somebody's at a seven out of 10 and now they move to this. And we've measured that through these things. Those really hard to validate as well as actually have be useful. Whereas if you have somebody subjectively rank themselves on things like we use the comfort to growth scale a lot. We use things like, "Are you feeling comfortable? Are you in the fear zone? Are you in the learning zone? Are you in the growth zone?" 

And when people start to rank themselves on that, they start to see way what they can do. Why they might be feeling the way they are? Whether they are where they want to be. Or when you tell them to give themselves a rating out of like one to 10 on something subjective, like, yeah, you feel like you want to be a better leader in this aspect on a scale of one to 10. One being not doing that at all, 10 being doing that perfectly, where are you? And then they can give themselves a rating and then that gives themselves a reflection point of like, "Why didn't I say 10? Or why did I say the one I did?" What would make it lower? What would make it higher? And that gives them suddenly a leg up on something that can feel very abstract. And that's where we use what comes closer to quantitative data, but it is very subjective in the end. It just ends up being very useful subjective data because we allow it to be useful. 

And it doesn't need to be objective because we can't ever guarantee objectivity across people. Selling somebody that they have high integrity means something completely different to everybody that you tell that to. What do they say? What do they mean? What would they like to see more of? It's so personalized that giving them like subjective numbers that they choose ends up being a helpful data point more than trying to rank something on a larger scale is too personally interpreted. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. That's interesting because you're having them scale themselves. In a way, you're allowing them to speak. And I think I heard somebody say this, even when you're having discourse, you want to allow your opponent to speak because they can hear themselves and they can see. Kind of maybe even work out what was in their head. 

I mean, how many times have we been like, "I'm upset about this?" And then we begin to talk about it and we're like, "Oh, actually, it's this other thing over here entirely." It sounds like they get to take part in it. And I know I've seen a lot of studies that show that if you engage and support employees in their wellness and they feel like you care about their personhood, they show up so much better in the workplace. I feel like sometimes I really believe like workplaces can have certain workshops without giving themselves accolades for having put the workshop on, but make it really subtle and gentle, and quiet, and allow it to be what it is. 

And so, you said some of it is subjective, but I think that's when it comes back to that piece of authenticity, because sometimes that's so unspoken, but you know it. There's times that if I need authority in a certain space and I've got a story that we all know to be true, it exists. And so I like that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. We actually rely a lot on our stories, our own experience, and our perspective. And we are very transparent about it. And so, we don't go in promising objective quantitative data on humans, and their behaviors, and their mindsets. And we found that even the most technical-minded people, when we come in and say, "Hey, rather than putting some random numbers on an engagement score and saying like, "This is where you should be as a company versus this," we go in and provide information on like, "Hey, here's what we've heard. And here's what we completely subjectively see as potential risks and things to look out for based on what we've heard." 

Knowing that we've heard this in a very different setting than a day-to-day setting, because maybe this was one conversation with somebody that we've never talked to before. It was a 30-minute thing. We don't know what their day-to-day is. We don't know what their workday is. We're not observing them working most of the time. And so, we're very transparent with that. Like we say it up front, "This is subjective based on us, based on our moods, on the day we talk to them, and based on one conversation with somebody we actually don't know at all." And this is what we see. 

And we found that for the leaders and the clients that somehow gravitate towards that or give us a chance, they see that we're so close to the truth that they also see or hear day-to-day. Then they're like, "Oh, wait. I want to learn more. What about this? And what about that? And what about this person? And what about this situation?" And so, it's interesting because it's almost the opposite of what most of the industry is doing out there, which is all about like, "I've surveyed two million people in this position and this is how they feel." I'm like, "You don't know how they feel. You're not them. And you're not in that position on that day." 

Bonnie Iserman: Right. Right. 

Alex Cullimore: But it works because of what you were saying, Bonnie, how you work, you go in and you reflect this. We do the best possible job of just based on what we see, reflecting what we see, and we try and be the best, the most transparent mirror that we can be. We will admit we're objective. We will admit that this is how we see it. But this is as close as possible, our best rendering of what we're seeing. And that tends to speak to why that's when people start to feel like, "Oh, yeah, you're in my head," because they start to see the pieces of that that are true for them. 

And when it's acknowledged out loud, then it feels like it becomes more of a truth than just like something that you may have thought or may have not even consciously realized you were thinking. And suddenly, you can speak to it. Now you have a conversation that's growing off of something that feels very true, or at least easy enough to start with. And that's when it starts to expand. Like Cristina said, they start to ask, "Well, what about other people? What about this situation? How are we thinking about these?" It's just trying to reflect the truth that we're seeing. And people have so many stories around that truth that when you just say the thing that you're seeing, it tends to cut through some of that. And people who are receptive to that get a lot out of it. 

Bonnie Iserman: Right. I'm convinced that even if all you did was go in there and create that space for people to be heard, it would help create some traction and offload. And there's a bit of an emotional recycle bin or something that's taking place as people are talking. And it sounds like – I'm sorry, Cristina. I have to ask you. When you said like it's going to be based on our mood that day – 

Cristina Amigoni: It is. 

Bonnie Iserman: I love that because that's so authentic. 

Cristina Amigoni: If we didn't sleep well. If we just had a tough meeting right before this. If we've heard other heard other things. Because, also, we're biased. Our opinion is biased. That's going to influence how we hear what we hear when we try to be as non-judgmental as possible and we try to come in with a clean slate and we're still humans. I mean, we're not AI. We're not bots. There is going to be something there. There's going to be the stories from – there's going to be PTSD from our own experiences. There's going to be all sorts of things that still influence how we see what we hear, and what we focus on, and what we hear. 

Bonnie Iserman: Once you've spent time with the leaders, do you spend time with some of the executives as well in that like high-level space? Maybe it's when you're giving the follow up and you're saying, "Look, this is what we've seen." And then you said – no. But, Alex, you said that's when they start to go, "Yeah, that's absolutely what we're seeing." And even they kind of have that ability to be like, "Yeah, this is what I'm seeing and saying." 

Alex Cullimore: It gives them permission to speak the subjective truths that they have to. We don't necessarily purposefully aim at a specific level or not. We just go wherever basically we're invited. Or we tell them that, "Hey, we think we should talk to these people," which is usually not going up to the more executive level. It's usually going down to figure out what's happening with everybody else. That's usually requesting like, "Hey, we're hearing these things. We'd like to check in on the ground and see what we'd hear if we were there. And so, that is as kind of pushy as we get as far as like asking for certain types of levels.

We try and raise things for like, "Hey, this seems like something somebody might need to know at a different level." Sometimes they'll ask us to help present that. Sometimes not. But, really, just giving that space to say, "Hey, here's our subjective truth. Let's see how it matches up with your subjective truth." Everybody suddenly can just share what their subjective truth is instead of everybody trying to dance around and say only what they believe can be an objective truth, which is a very small portion of the Venn diagram of what's happening. My perception, your perception, and what is "actually happening" are all at play. And if we can allow the space for all of those things, we suddenly have a better fleshed-out vision of what might really be going on. 

Bonnie Iserman: Then people are feeling like I can really share at least what I think even if there's a disagreement. Even if it doesn't exactly fit with what everybody else thinks. You're giving permission. 

Alex Cullimore: Say , "Hey, this is what we're seeing." And somebody says, "Yeah, this is what I'm seeing." Or, "Hey. You know, actually, I see it this way from these conversations." So then we have either somebody else to go talk to, or a new data point, or a new idea. Or there's just an addition to what our subjective truth is. As long as you're not too attached to your subjective truth as the capital T Truth, it makes it a lot easier to be flexible. And people can absorb that and allow it to change and try and just form the truth together instead of asserting an opinion or asserting an idea over and then not being able to adjust that. 

Bonnie Iserman: Okay, so what do you do? I'm sure that sometimes you can just feel the energy when you get in there. There were times that I did coaching in some of my former roles. And one in particular, I remember this leadership team that the executive team had me go meet with. As I like walked in, it felt like the hair on the back of their necks was standing up. I could sense that they did not want me there. And they didn't totally understand why I was there. And it was probably a communication thing. 

But after being there for a bit and communicating with them, there's something that's just super, super real about that where it's valuable. It's valuable to see people face-to-face and have those conversations. I'm curious if you have had experiences like that. Or what were some of the early like lessons learned as you went in and the mood thing? I mean, maybe that wasn't something you shared the first time. I don't know. I'm curious. 

Alex Cullimore: I think you described it well. I think that's happened to us many, many times where we get introduced to somebody where they don't know us. They don't know that maybe we've gotten the buy-in from the person who introduced them to us. And maybe they have a little bit of a credit they'll give us. But they don't know us and they don't know what it is. 

What it really comes down to is how quickly they start to feel that we aren't there to judge them. We're just there to listen. And since we can do that authentically, because we don't pretend to know what their experience is. We just want to listen and figure it out so that we can help them. The second they get the feeling that they can say something and not receive judgment for it, that they go out on a little bit of a limb or they just don't feel like they have to hold up a mask, it's pretty amazing how quickly people will start to set down armor when they feel like, "Oh, wait. I don't have to have the armor up here? This really is just to say whatever messy thing is in my head?" 

And I think that we've had many experiences where it did feel like the guard was up in the beginning, and we're fine with that. It's fine. Of course, you can have your guard up. You don't know us. There's no reason for you just to walk in and be super happy with us or think that you know us. Or even if you've heard it from other people, you don't know it yet. You haven't personally experienced it. That's fine. But giving them that much space, I don't know how people pick up on it, but they do seem to pick up fairly quickly. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I think one of the things that helps is we tried to be vulnerable pretty much from the beginning, so that we can – the more we can show that, again, we're here, we're humans. And we're not here to judge. We're not here to say what's right and wrong. And we're not perfect. 

So while we may have been introduced as experts, or some people in the room may think that we are supposed to be the experts, we don't say that. We don't come in and say like, "We are the experts on this. Listen to us. Do it our way." We never do that. We open up a lot of how we present even when we facilitate their questions more than statements. 

A lot of the way we present is we provide stories. We do a lot of joking around. We bring a lot of humor in things. And in the humor, we use the humor for the vulnerability. Whether it's the fact that in every single presentation or every single document there's going to be what I now call an Easter egg, which is a typo or a mistake. And instead of getting defensive, or feeling attacked, or whatever could come up, we now actually start a lot of our workshops or a lot of facilitations with like, "Hey, there's going to be an Easter egg. Who's going to find it?"

Bonnie Iserman: Oh, okay. Wow. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And it's like there’s going to be one. There is going to be a mistake somewhere in the next hour or four days. And yeah, rather than brushing over or pretending that it's not there, I'm like, "No, no. I'm going to tell you. Not our forte." One or many. Let's see who finds it. 

Bonnie Iserman: And then it's kind of like a working session. You're working on us. We're working with you. And we're kind of making that happen together. I really like that. I think one of you said we make sure that we're on equal footing, or at least that's what I wrote. It seems like that's what you're doing. Saying, "Look, we're just like you. We're here to –" It really seems to me that many organizations benefit from just this type of work, even if it's just a bit, somebody coming from the outside. You say something and suddenly feel that you're not going to be judged for it. That it's normal. 

And it's helpful. Because I think, in part, I want to kind of reach those leaders. But in part, I also, in terms of who we reach essentially. Because that's what we're trying to do is reach humans and let them know you're seen, you're heard. At least that's where I'm coming from. It sounds like that's a little bit of what you do. That to me reduces suffering sometimes. And I think that that can take place certainly in coaching. It can take place in like a meeting with a manager. But then there's some times that people are not going to share the deep stuff that they're dealing with, but they are still very much dealing with it. You just have no idea. 

And I think that's where bringing in a speaker is really valuable, because it does seem to me that there's still a sacred space that exists between the speaker on the stage and the individual sitting in the chair being there with themselves where they can have a moment with themselves and take on the task that ultimately is theirs. Their wellness and their ability to show up and reframe and all of that comes down to them. 

And I think there's a moment that they can have with themselves. And there have been times I've seen speakers. Even within my last organization, there's a really fun speaker. And I remember being in one of the conferences that I got to go to and he was sharing some personal stuff. But every single time I would hear him speak, I would be like, "It's okay for me to be myself. He's doing it. It's totally okay for me to be myself." Because over time, you do kind of start to mask that. And that can actually just take place over years without you really realizing it. 

Alex Cullimore: I think you hit something important there, that there's some amount of giving permission to be human, to be yourself. And you do it by being yourself. You do it by just showing up authentically. And it kind of provides this permission structure that, "Oh, well, they can show up and then they can be messy, they can have a typo here or there. or they're not trying to do this perfectly. They're trying to assert a certain point of view. They're just trying to throw out whatever they can and they'll be authentic about it," people do feel that permission. Maybe that's what you're alluding to as well in the speakers is they or coming across authentically and giving that permission for everybody to say, "Hey, maybe I can take the armor down a little bit." And the armor's heavy. It's a lot of work. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. To some degree, I sometimes feel like I'm going after the one or two that are really suffering. And I don't mean to be too much about it. I might not know who it is that I reach. But there are some people that are just really hurting at a level that they don't feel that anybody understands them. 

And the thing is, is you don't have to gather all this data and make all these proof cases to executive teams because we know it. We know the data's there. We know that if you have sessions like this or if you bring in people for workshops and then you're actually helping the individual people and it impacts your bottom line because they know that you care about them. At a core level, you're helping them be better. 

I think that's probably what I liked about leadership and learning about leadership was it seemed to me that it was the other side of the coin in terms of like therapy. Because in leadership, you learn forgiveness similar to – 

Cristina Amigoni: Good leadership. 

Bonnie Iserman: Right. And good leadership. You learn some of the same concepts that help kind of set you free from the weight that maybe you're carrying in a different light, in a different way, that I guess it's maybe more educational. And I've always seen that system be different. Leadership is education. And I think that when you learn, learning kind of loves you back when you pursue that. And so, when you're investing in people and you're giving them that, I mean, that is a real investment that is very, very different. 

Also, I think there was some data out there that said that if you continue to just keep rewarding people with money, it does become a bit carrots and sticks. And not only that, they just want more the next year. It's interesting how you can have such a similar impact, but only when you're really, really reaching people. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, there's a couple of points you said that they are really interesting. One is the from a speaker's point of view. How even the internal work can also happen if you're listening to someone. Not necessarily if you get to be the one talking and sharing. And it's probably why I love to listen to a lot of podcasts and certain kinds of podcasts. And, also, the whole number of books that I've listened to. And it's that. It's like it's because like hearing or reading about somebody else's story or how they believe things happen. I feel heard. I feel seen. And I'm not the one sharing anything, but I feel seen. I can relate to what they're saying. I'm like, "Yes, I'm not the only one. This is an actual thing that somebody else has experienced." I think that helps a lot. 

And from a leadership point of view, it is fascinating that, yes, I mean, we know it. It's like it takes so little. And, yet, it seems like it's one of the most underrated and complex things and first things to fly out the door if you just create that space. It doesn't even have to be all the time and it doesn't have to be that much. If you just create the space, you see some of those sparks happen where a group of people that has been struggling to actually talk to each other, they get one or two times where that's all they do is share what's going on with them. And all of a sudden, they're actually voluntarily saying, "I'm going to collaborate with you. I'm going to let you know how this impacts you. I'm going to think about you." And all they needed was the space once or twice to actually share their point of view, their experience, their life. 

Bonnie Iserman: So then they begin to model what you've done because they're able to imitate that. And I think that you're handling that so well. You said that it only takes so little. Y'all know about water chestnuts? Do you guys know about water chestnuts? 

Cristina Amigoni: No. 

Bonnie Iserman: Okay. I'm pretty sure they're illegal in New York. Just a quick note there. But it's interesting because – and then maybe there's other plants like this. I'm not a huge person who is big into plants. But I did get a water chestnut once for me and my kids. And what I noticed was they survive on such little water. They're not like needing you to prune and do stuff with them every single day. And there was a time I thought like it was dead. Like this was for my children. And I think it rained. And then suddenly, it had sprouted up even more. And that just really hit me that I think that's how encouragement is. People don't realize you're not having to give a lot to simply say, "How are you? How are things going?" 

And granted, I think leaders also need somebody to model for them. This is really helpful. Because you'll have conversations with people who are like, "I know, but I'm so nice that if I ask them how they are, I'm going to be stuck there for the next 45 minutes listening to like a venting session." And at the end of the day, they may even need practice and coaching on how to say, "Hey, I committed to taking this much time. Why don't we circle back another time?" 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, usually the amount of time that somebody takes I would say it's probably directly reflected on how little they get asked that and they get that space. Because we've seen that. We've been, especially lately, in a lot of groups in a lot of situations where we have a group of people that doesn't even know who we are. They know very little of us or they don't know us at all. And they've never actually spoken to us or been in a room with us. And all we say is how are you and then we don't get a word in for an hour. 

Bonnie Iserman: Okay, that's great. Because how do you engage when you go in and there's nobody that wants to speak? I'm super curious about that. 

Alex Cullimore: First off is telling people we're fine with sitting here in silence until somebody says, "We'll wait. That's fine." If we know that there's a lot going on and that nobody's addressing, we might prompt something to be like, "Okay." We used to have meetings. When we first got with one of our larger clients, we used to have meetings where we'd be like, "Okay, what's going on in everybody's world?" And they'd go around the table and we'd be like, "Well, things are fine. Things are fine. Things are fine. Things are fine." And then we'd be like – because we'd heard been hearing from everybody else how things were not fine, we would just finally ask one question with like one little seed of, "Well, how is this portion going?" And it would be like putting a nail into a pipe. And suddenly, it's just spraying everywhere. It's just we've released it out. There's some specific seed and everybody latches onto that. And suddenly, they have something to say because you've given them something, some seed to grow off of. 

Bonnie Iserman: Okay. And I just thought of a couple of stories. Because even that, I had seen a video when maybe 15 years ago when YouTube was not like as crazy good as it is now, but it was called like Leadership Lessons from a Dancing Guy. And it talked about how that second person that comes in to join the leader is where the movement really begins. And so, you're saying this one leader speaks up and then suddenly everybody else will. 

And I remember when I was working with junior high kids, which that's controlled chaos is really all that is. And I would try to get them to like play Red Rover sometimes outside. And it was kind of harder to do. But then one time I invited my twin brother out to Texas. And he's like six foot four. He's this lanky guy. He's a goofy dude. And he and I were like, "Yeah, I'm gonna play Red Rover." And suddenly, all of the kids were like, "Yeah." 

And I've just continued to see this be a truth. But also, being in that situation where you get into a meeting and they're like, "I don't know why you're here." And you're suddenly put in that position to even set the expectation with them. Almost to mediate like, "Hey, we're actually here to do this thing." And being able to do that I think in a calm manner probably makes people feel safe because at least you know that you're in control and you don't feel the need to perform. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. And, also, a big part of that is depending on the meeting and the situation. But a big part of it is letting go of our own agenda. It's like, "Yes, we may have this meeting where this is what we want to do, or get done, or accomplish." But it really isn't up to us what gets accomplished. It's really about what are people able to provide right now in this moment of their day, of their lives. And we've been in a lot of meetings where sometimes it's like, "No. I mean, whatever agenda we have, it's not going to happen, because that's not what's needed right now." What's needed is what's actually happening in the room. 

Bonnie Iserman: I got to ask. I just feel like that comes from such a deep place. I feel like that comes from such a deep place. And maybe for me, I know what it feels like to feel really alone internally with yourself. And I don't know. Jokingly, I'll tell my kids, "I'm so glad you're sentient." And they're not little computers and neither are we. We're the real AI if you think about it. But, also, we're not A in that case. 

Still, at a really young age, I was having conversations with myself. And there's people that are not even thinking in those terms or they don't have this other voice happening where they're having this conversation. But I remember how I felt. And I just remember how heavy that was. That I think is what I'm aiming at is those individuals. I don't know why. I don't even totally know why. I just think it's the right thing. I think if you can – there's nothing more real than pain. And if you can kind of reduce suffering for people, they do better and they feel better. And why not? If it's within your power, why not? 

But I'm curious, Cristina, there was something you said that I was really curious about. Oh, no. I'm asking you. Where is that visceral place that that's coming from that you intrinsically knew we are here. The agenda does not totally matter, but we're going to engage with you at a human level. Maybe that's been there from the beginning, but I've got to know between the two of you where that really comes from. 

Alex Cullimore: Part of it's part of it is things doing a lot of coaching training and just trying to get better at listening for when people really are holding back versus when people just are unable to share. Listening for just subtle cues, subtle language cues when people are there's a wall up and they're not going to be jumping over it. Versus, yeah, there's something I want to say, I just don't know how to say it. Or I haven't thought it through yet. Some of it is that. The rest of it – I think for me. And Cristina, I'd be interested to hear thoughts on it. For me, it's a lot of introspection on the times where I felt in that position or see yourself in their shoes of like, "Yeah, if I was in that place or given how they're responding, what I'm relating to from what they're responding, the conversation we thought we wanted to have is just not possible or it's just not going to happen today. Or this isn't the agenda we had. I don't think we can approach that." 

Or you find out a new piece of information and you're like, "Okay. Well, that changed our agenda anyway. Our agenda is no longer necessary." It's just constantly keeping on top of, "Is this actually possible, feasible, or necessary?" If something has changed in their world, but then it would be useless for everybody if we try and march down an agenda that no longer applies. There's, I think, a lot of – each of those come to mind for me. I don't know, Cristina, what you would say. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I would say, definitely, everything that you've said. A lot of different coach training into listening to the energy, not the words. I think some of that, for any, I would say, successful coach, it's already in there. It just gets almost activated through training and experience and being in that space. I don't think it's something that necessarily – I think you can refine the skill. But I think the deeper core skill itself was always there. It just needed that space to come out and live. 

And I think it's definitely a lot of that and it's a lot of listening to the words, listening to the tones, looking on video. Which has been another thing that we've noticed, is the more we show up on video, even if we're the only ones, it encourages others to show up on videos without having to force that. But it's that looking at like how people are saying things. What they're saying? How they're doing things? 

And, also, letting go of the judgment to like now I'm in curiosity. And the curiosity will let this go wherever it needs to be. Along with our own experience and thinking through our own experience as well of like how have I felt in something similar? Or how would I feel in something similar than this? And really knowing that unless we're in the ER saving lives or in OR being in a heart surgery that needs to be performed in a certain timing, it's okay if we let go of the agenda. Nothing is actually going to be harmed if this gets talked about another day or next week. 

And also, as humans, we resist things we're not ready to do. It doesn't matter how much we push. If you're not ready, all we're going to do is waste time on the pushing back and forth. If we allow that processing time, that internal processing, which then can help hopefully get to like, "Oh, wait. I have now processed enough that I want to do something about it." I choose to get out of the rut. I choose to get out of the darkness or being stuck here because I'm done. I've been hurt enough to do that. Then things move way faster. It may not seem like it because you're like, "Oh, I don't have the time to pause for the processing. So let's go straight to the action." And I'm like, "Yes." Except that you're going to be straight circling around the action for the next six months. If you just heard and created the space at the beginning, you may be somewhere completely different in six months. 

Bonnie Iserman: Now that you're saying that, it's making a little bit more sense to me. Because it seems like both of you have witnessed and maybe experienced enough people in the position of being burnt out. Not having a place to have a voice. And then maybe even told, "You let me down," as they let you off, or something like that. And it seems like is that correct? Like you're attempting to create space for those individuals, because something about that is moving to you? 

Alex Cullimore: I think it's definitely that feeling that helps create that movement. The logical portion that comes in on top of that is what Cristina is saying, is that realizing that if we push, we're not getting anywhere anyway. We're going to probably make things worse. Knowing that both the results that we might have wanted, we try not to stay too attached to a result. Because, otherwise, it leads you to pushing something that might not work. But be realizing that, "If that's not possible, then why would we approach it that way?" And that I think we can read that a little bit more based on that empathy that you're saying of just saying, like, "I've been in this position that I know this is not a time to push. I know I don't think that's going to be successful. And I don't think we can pull anything out of this if we try and push that. If we try and push this, we're going to get into a deeper hole." Or we can give them some space, give them some, "Hopefully this will help." Remove that hole. So that the next time we're all coming around and having this conversation, we're more ready to have it. 

Bonnie Iserman: And Alex, you had said relating to what they're responding to what we're saying, which to me is like we're listening. And then I think sometimes thinking is of course if you can maybe try to hold to opposing ideas in your head. But it also happens when you're engaging with other people. Because you're sharing thoughts. And that's like if you're really listening, it is triggering things for you that if you say out loud, it's helping that individual process. Process what it is that they're attempting to or that they need to process in terms of what grips them. And so, you said relating to what they're responding. And I liked that. I wanted you to just share a little bit more about it. 

Alex Cullimore: No, I think that's exactly it. It's just listening to those small internal twinges of like, "Oh, I see how they're responding. My guess is they're responding this way." You didn't have to be right on the guess. You just have to be listening and attuned enough that you're trying to take your best guess and to say, "Hey, I think this is what I'm hearing. I think this is what is going on for you." And sometimes you can call that out directly because it helps them to hear it. And sometimes it's just knowing that and saying, "Given that, given my inference here, my best guess of where they're coming from, here's what I think is possible and not possible. Here's what I think is the next good step and not a good step." And a lot of that is just practicing until you have some of that intuition, and you're willing to just trust that intuition that what I think about what they're saying is either right or it's right enough that we will eventually get to what is more right. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. It sounds like you're giving grace too. I mean, when you're speaking with a group or with bigger groups, little groups, you want a lot of at bats so that you can have that ability to begin to like read the room a bit more and not be so hard on yourself. And you know it's good when there's like a hush and maybe people linger afterwards and they want stay, and talk, and engage. And that in itself, sometimes I've found just telling people that as we're talking about what an onsite might look like tells them there's something real about this. I've just used words to describe a very human, unspoken, real thing that happens that people understand means. There was engagement and maybe a few people kind of felt hurt. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, definitely. A lot of that, especially if it is a timed situation or there is an agenda, is also being open to that. And it's like, "Listen, we're going down a conversation that definitely needs to be done." And there's more things that we need to cover. So, parking lot. Just know that this conversation isn't important. Come back to it during lunch, happy hour, dinner. And most of the times, we don't have to be in the room for those conversations. Because all we did was create the space. People just have to have the conversations by themselves. 

Bonnie Iserman: I love that. I love that. It just tells me you had talked about – I remember getting put on a phone call with a guy who was over at facilities at this healthcare system I was working with. And he knew nothing about our software. And I was like, "Hey, great to meet you. It sounds like these individuals have introduced me to you so that we can move forward with this plan today. I've got these documents." He's like, "I have no idea who you are, lady." You know? And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it's hitting me." They've put me in the position to even, again, set the expectations with this guy. And he doesn't even want to be there. 

I think it was interesting. Because in that moment, I did really believe in what we were doing. And I still do, I think, with that software. I knew I had the opportunity to talk to him at a human level, let's say, and ask, "Hey, how many times are you walking through a room and you see this and you see that?" And how many people are on your team?" I just started asking questions. And wouldn't that be a lot easier? And I was able to kind of get him on board, but I know much earlier on when I had conversations with people and I was more new to it and not engaging as much, I would get totally freaked out when people would be upset, or mad, or unhappy and feel like maybe I didn't really know what I was doing, but even that. You know? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Well, we could definitely talk about this for days and hours on end. There's so much to unpack. 

Alex Cullimore: Weeks. 

Cristina Amigoni: Weeks. Yes. 

Bonnie Iserman: Right. Sure. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. A couple of last questions. One is what's your definition of authenticity? You've kind of touched on it a lot without the question. But thinking back, what does authenticity mean to you? 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. I think I guess it means an awareness of yourself and other people that you're no more, but you're certainly no less, and same for them. And growing in that. I think it means like treating people like they matter first before whatever the work is that we're doing. I think it really is in the little things. And leadership is a big component of it. Because in a way, I think leadership is actually like friendship. You really care about people. 

And I remember giving a presentation internally to an internal team. And those were always like the harder ones to do in Denver. And one of the main leaders of the organization was connected over the phone. He was like on his way in, driving in, listening. He wasn't even there. And he didn't need to be there. 

And I'm giving this presentation. And again, it was like one that made me a lot more nervous. But as soon as he walked in, he walked into the room and just walked by me and like gave me a high five. And how cool is that? To me, I think that that's the little things, is that's what tells people that, really, when I take a seat back and I'm like, "I'm super overwhelmed with everything," those are the moments that I can stop and maybe think of one or two people I can thank or one or two people that need to be seen perhaps just as much as me. And so, I think the authenticity is like seeing beyond the person into kind of who they are. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's a beautiful definition. Yeah. And a great story. Wow. 

Bonnie Iserman: I would add too, it's being willing to apologize when you're wrong. And I had one mentor say, "Nobody turns down a sincere apology." People should have room to make mistakes. 

Cristina Amigoni: We make them. So, yes. 

Alex Cullimore: Whether you have room or not, you're going to make them. So you probably might as well make room. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Might as well be acceptable. 

Bonnie Iserman: Being in a position or being in a leadership room where you know that when you apologize, everything is not going to be held against you. That's huge. I mean, a lot of times people are bringing their home and what they've learned into a workplace setting and needing to learn new skills around how we engage with one another. And so, being able to say, "Hey, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that," makes a huge difference. 

Cristina Amigoni: Especially even when you're recognizing that you might have taken a whole organization a or whole department into the wrong direction. Admitting that and saying like, "Nope, my assumptions were wrong. I now have better knowledge. I have now gained more perspective." "Completely wrong direction. Sorry, we're 100 feet away from the summit. We're going to have to walk down the mountain. This is the wrong mountain." 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: That can motivate people to actually hike the next mountain. 

Bonnie Iserman: Man, what a relief, too, for the leader who gets to say that. Like a weight is taken off their shoulders. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes. 

Bonnie Iserman: I heard someone say like – 

Alex Cullimore: –trying to figure out how it’s somebody else's fault. 

Bonnie Iserman: Right. They're like, "Look, I've been losing sleep over this. And now that I said I'm sorry and we're moving in another direction, I could do that so much sooner next time." 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: And our last question is where can people find you? 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. They can find me on LinkedIn. And my website is execucommunications.com. We're growing this as we go. I have a couple of advisors that are a part of the team and supportive in the work that we do. But we're slowly growing it. And there's little things that we do for small businesses that might be more day-to-day execution. And then there's the strategy side. There's some leadership coaching and even some public speaking. But it's execucommunications.com. And I think it does sound pretty similar to what you two have done. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Well, it's needed. We're definitely not enough for all the needs out there. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah.

Bonnie Iserman: Purposeful rest.

Cristina Amigoni: Bigger reach. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us. 

Bonnie Iserman: Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: Really powerful conversation. 

Bonnie Iserman: I really appreciate it. Thank you both. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. And thanks, everybody, for listening. 

[OUTRO]

Alex Cullimore: Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Uncover the Human. Special thanks to Rachel Sherwood who helped produce our theme. And, of course, our production assistants, Carlee and Niki, for whom we could not do this or could not publish this. We get to do basically the fun parts. And thank you to We Edit Podcasts for editing our podcasts. 

Cristina Amigoni: You can find us at podcast@wearesiamo.com. You can find us on LinkedIn. You can find us at Uncover the Human on social media. Follow us. And We Are Siamo is wearesiamo.com. 

Alex Cullimore: Please feel free to reach out with questions, topics you'd like addressed. If you'd like to be on the show, reach out. We're around. Thank you, everybody, for listening. 

[END]