What If Joy Is The Real Marketing Strategy? with Lyn Wineman

 “Lyn Wineman: How do we make sure audiences feel seen in this work? How do we work this, or present it visually so that someone can really relate?”

[EPISODE]

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina.

Cristina Amigoni: Hello.

Alex Cullimore: We just finished a second conversation. I mean, second official recorded conversation on this podcast, but I don't know, the millionth conversation we've had with Lyn Wineman.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Our dear friend and marketing and branding guru.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, she does incredible work, is very passionate about it. If you don't get that from this episode, it's time to go to deep listening class, because you just exude it.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. We also highly recommend watching this one in addition to listening, if you listen while you walk, or drive, because she brought props and they're really fun.

Alex Cullimore: There's some good visuals. Maybe we'll just make that the cover photo in case people can't get to the YouTube. Such great visuals in there.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Definitely great visuals and just great conversation on branding, how much doing, what brings you joy at work actually makes performance and productivity and success possible.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Yeah, a great conversation about how things evolve over time, how her business has grown, what that means for her brand and what she's done to find and bring the joy to herself and everybody who works for her at KidGlov. A great conversation and just very fun all around. Lyn's always a fun person to talk to.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. Have a big launch of unveiling the new brand, or devolved blog brand on April 21st. We'll have details about that.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Jump in for that’s public events to go see how branding can work for a case study.

Cristina Amigoni: Happy listening.

Alex Cullimore: Enjoy.

[INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to another episode of Uncover the Human. Today, Cristina and I are joined by the marketing and branding guru that we have leaned on many times and that many people lean on, Lyn Wineman. Welcome back, Lyn.

Lyn Wineman: Whoo! I'm so glad to be here. Yay.

Cristina Amigoni: Yay, Lyn. Second time back, even though we talk all the time.

Lyn Wineman: I know.

Cristina Amigoni: We’re trying to figure out how many times you've been back.

Lyn Wineman: I think this is only my second official time on the podcast. But I do feel like I talk to the two of you all the time. I come to you for advice, for counsel, for good gnocchi, for wine suggestions. You are my gurus for many different things.

Alex Cullimore: We lean on Lyn, whether she knows it or not, for all of our strategy, as far as facing marketing.

Lyn Wineman: That is what I like to hear. Honestly, you two probably realize this about me, but I love what I do so much that I really don't have any hobbies. I love my work. I do my work. I look forward to Saturday mornings, because that's when I have quiet time to do my work, which I know you will probably tell me sounds unhealthy.

Cristina Amigoni: No, no, no.

Lyn Wineman: But I really enjoy it.

Cristina Amigoni: I’ve been there.

Lyn Wineman: Then Saturday afternoon’s for my grandsons. That's where my life is right now. Yeah, no. The work of marketing is just a passion of mine, because I just see how it helps people. It helps small businesses. It helps nonprofits. That makes me very, very happy.

Cristina Amigoni: You're very good at it.

Alex Cullimore: Yes.

Lyn Wineman: Well, thank you.

Cristina Amigoni: There's something to that. Passion and good, being good go hand to hand.

Lyn Wineman: See, it's a good thing, because otherwise, I'd have a very sad life trying to do marketing for people and being very bad at it. I think I am lucky. I think my mind, and actually, you know what? I know exactly why my mind is wired for marketing, because you all taught me the Working Genius. For all of your listeners that are Working Genius fans, I am an IG, which means I love coming up with ideas. I love getting people excited about the ideas, which essentially, is marketing. It's a good fit for me.

Alex Cullimore: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, that would be a perfect marketer that's creating things and wanting to get people onboard with it.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Alex Cullimore: It makes sense why Saturdays would be something you do work on. That's where you get your energy.

Lyn Wineman: That's where I get my energy. You know what else? Once again, for working genius fans, the I and the G are both disruptive energies, right? I am a double disruptor, which is why sometimes –

Cristina Amigoni: Fits very well.

Lyn Wineman: Right? Well, sometimes while I'm on podcasts with people, I'll do something really weird, like putting on a unicorn head.

Cristina Amigoni: There you go.

Alex Cullimore: This is not a zoom filter for those on video. That is a real unicorn head.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah, it is real. I’m going to back up.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It doesn't disappear. It's actually on the head.

Lyn Wineman: It's on the head. You know what? What's crazy about this is this is always in my top drawer of my desk. It's always accessible. I reach for it quite often, because if I'm in a meeting where the energy is low, or where it's getting a little boring, or where there's a really good idea that I want to celebrate, I have today, because I was just celebrating with the team. Sometimes when you're remote, it's hard to celebrate. I put on the unicorn headband and go, “Yay.” I don't know. It gives me a little dopamine rush. There you go.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. For those on audio only, you have to look at our YouTube, because the ears are the most fascinating part of that.

Lyn Wineman: They're gold. The ears are gold.

Cristina Amigoni: They’re gold ears.

Lyn Wineman: The horn is gold. There's some pink, feathery stuff. It's a full white headband. Yes, I'm just describing it for everyone. It does keep going out of the frame. If I'm going to continue to wear it, I have to back up. I think for that reason, I will take it off for the time being. It distracts me to see myself with the unicorn horn on.

Cristina Amigoni: We did talk about doing a jeopardy, as in you show a prop and we provided jeopardy question answer to what the prop means. Alex, you're up.

Lyn Wineman: All right. Well, I already blew it. I already blew it on the first one, but if you want to do it, I'm now putting on the unicorn headband for the third time. What would your jeopardy question be for the unicorn headband?

Alex Cullimore: What is a physical galvanizer?

Lyn Wineman: I love it. I love it. All right. Cristina, are you going to play, too? Are you coming up with a question?

Cristina Amigoni: I'm going to play, too. I should have gotten a buzzer.

Lyn Wineman: Oh.

Cristina Amigoni: I would say, what is a celebration?

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. That's exactly.

Cristina Amigoni: You talked about how you put it on when you want to celebrate?

Lyn Wineman: Yup. I put it on when I want to celebrate. I put it on when I want to make a point. I put it on when I just want a little extra attention, which is frequently. I'm also an attention hound, so how about that? We'll just reveal all of my secrets.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Second possible answer is like, what is a double disruptor?

Lyn Wineman: What is a double disruptor? Definitely a gold, metallic unicorn horn with bright pink feathers.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Pink feathers. Yeah, yeah.

Lyn Wineman: All right. Well, since we're playing the game, do you want to see my second prop?

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. 

Alex Cullimore: Yes.

Cristina Amigoni: Let's continue the game.

Lyn Wineman: All right. Are you ready?

Cristina Amigoni: We may have to call Ken Jennings, too.

Alex Cullimore: It's another headset.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Oh, it's another headset.

Lyn Wineman: I am into fancy headwear. This one is the bees.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Lyn Wineman: The little bee. Are they antennas, do you think?

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. I think they're antennas.

Lyn Wineman: There's a little gold crown, and I –

Cristina Amigoni: So, Queen Bee.

Lyn Wineman: - I love this one most. Yes, you got it.

Cristina Amigoni: What is Queen Bee?

Lyn Wineman: I love this one the most, because when I shake my head, the antennas shake, right? Then I'm also totally mesmerized. That always gets people, if they're down in the dumps, I can put on the Queen Bee. My team gave me this one, because KidGlov is a Certified B Corp. We got our initial certification in 2021, which means in 2024, we had to re-certify. My wonderful team, knowing my love of headwear, they did get me this headband. Actually, while I'm at it –

Cristina Amigoni: There's another one. It's coming. It's coming. Bee sunglasses.

Lyn Wineman: Now, am I the only person that's come in costume to the Uncover the Human? Actually, it's the Uncover the Human Podcast, and I'm covering myself up. What does that say about me?

Alex Cullimore: You're a disruptor. This is double-disruptor.

Cristina Amigoni: All right. Yes. Yes.

Alex Cullimore: I love that there's antenna on the glasses, too.

Lyn Wineman: I'm taking it off. You got it, though. This is my Queen Bee headband. All right. My third prop is this. It's a little more self-promotional. Dan, tadan, tada.

Cristina Amigoni: Untangling Spaghetti book.

Lyn Wineman: Untangling Spaghetti book. Last year, I wrote a book called Untangling Spaghetti, because when I think about marketing and branding, I think it's all about finding the best parts of who you are, whether it's personal branding, or organizational branding. It's finding the best parts of who you are and figuring out how to communicate that in a way that is clear and differentiated and resonates with your target audience. There you go. That is sadly the end of my props, and we're only a few minutes into this podcast.

Cristina Amigoni: We may have to do mental props now.

Lyn Wineman: Okay. All right. All right. Before you know it, I'll just be scrounging around my office finding props.

Cristina Amigoni: Now I want to find props. I'm like, I've got props.

Lyn Wineman: Everyone find a prop. Everyone find a prop. I love it. I love it.

Alex Cullimore: Well, I like how you said that about branding, that your brand – branding is about finding the best parts of yourself, your business, and making them public to the target audience. That works for the target audience, something that resonates with them. That's definitely something you helped us with if you have lots of companies with. As we understand it, you've also recently undertaken branding for your own company, again, and a rebrand.

Lyn Wineman: Yes, we're so excited about this. In our book, we've got this really great branding process. It's what we're most known for. It's called brand advancement. It's a very logical and strategic process that helps companies really untangle the spaghetti, essentially, right? KidGlov will turn 16 in May. We'll be able to drive, as a company, right?

Alex Cullimore: Congratulations.

Lyn Wineman: We'll turn 16 in May. We have gone through this process roughly every five years for ourselves. We, last fall, in celebration of the book said, we should go through the process. Again, it's been a while. The last time we did it was in 2019. It was pre-pandemic, which almost pre-pandemic seems like forever ago, right?

Alex Cullimore: It is a different world.

Lyn Wineman: A different world. What we found is that in the last five years, or I guess, it was almost six years, we had actually changed quite a bit. We're still a marketing and branding company. We're still focused primarily on purpose-driven clients. With the launch of the book, and some of the things we've done nationally, we're really seen more as experts, versus – we've grown into more of a nationally known expert company, versus a regional marketing and branding agency. Our brand archetypes shifted what our clients and partners felt and thought about us shifted. That's a perfect time to take your brand and really just give it a – our name will still be KidGlov, spoiler alert. 

Our logo will be similar, but slightly different. So, evolution. Our color palette, our messaging, our tagline will all be very, very different. It's been really fun, because I'm starting to get some of the new branded items are showing up in our office. We're talking about our windows, our website is being updated. Yeah, on April 21st, we're going to have a big virtual event. Who knows? I might even don the unicorn headband, of course. Maybe we could get a new one.

Cristina Amigoni: You need a new one. You need a new headband.

Lyn Wineman: Typically for the occasion. But, yeah, we're going to have a virtual launch event. We're going to reveal the new brand. We're going to talk about the process we went through. It'll be a live case study. Because sometimes, when people think about up-leveling their brand, they think, “Oh, I've got to come up with a new name, or I've got to come up with a new logo.” That's not true. Sometimes, you just need to up level parts of your brand, because you've outgrown it and you can modernize and shift without changing absolutely everything. We are excited to use our own process and have some fun doing this.

Honestly, one of my favorite things to do when we work with clients on branding, I love to help clients launch their new brands. The thought of launching our own new brand is really, really exciting.

Alex Cullimore: That's very exciting. I'm curious how it is. You spend time doing a lot of brand advancement with other companies. What's it like being on the – basically, both sides of the table for that one, where you're both guiding yourself and the receiving side of it.

Lyn Wineman: Well, I just came out of a meeting with my team. What my team would tell you if you were a fly on the wall is that I, perhaps, am the most challenging client we serve. I am, perhaps, because I know what we're capable of. I know the potential, and just my double disruptive personality, I want it all, right? It's also, you guys deal and change a lot, right? You help your clients through change. There are very few people. I maybe am one of the few that embrace change. When you go through our process, we start with visioning. That was our team getting together and really talking through what we wanted to be known for and how far we'd come and where we were going. Then we do what we call the perception analysis. That's where we do a survey with the people who know you best, to find out what do they think of you, how do they define your personality. What are the words and phrases that they use to describe you.

Then we do our peer analysis. We take a look at who are our competitors. That's probably one thing that changed the most. Because at one time, we knew exactly who our competitors were, because they were located five, 10, 50 miles away from us. Now, we have competitors across the country, so that was a different look. When you do all of that and you develop your brand archetype profile, which sets your brand personality, and you see, oh, it's time for a change, that is a little bit of a scary thing, because you're like, “Whoa. What are people going to think of this change? How are we going to have find time to do it? How are we going to tell people? What's it going to cost?” All the things a business owner thinks about. But I am so excited for how it's going to present us differently and connect us, I believe, with new and different clients, so that we can help them with their brands as well.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, that's really fascinating. I love your process. We've gone through some of it as well. You've helped us throughout for our brand. You talked about how your competitors have changed, because your scale and who you help and where you help has changed. What other changes have you noticed in your archetype and anything like that? Has anything else changed, the core of the business?

Lyn Wineman: Yeah, 100%. One of the biggest shifts is our brand archetype shift. Anybody who has worked with brand archetypes, we use a framework that was informed by the work of Carl Jung. There are 12 brand archetypes from the hero, to the outlaw, to the jester, to the innocent, and so forth. KidGlov, our brand archetypes previously have always been magician, which the magician is about transformation. That makes a lot of sense, because we'll take somebody from where they are and help them to the next place. We've been lover, which is about having passion for the work and passion for the people we serve.

Then, we also have been creator, which creator attaches us to this space that we're in and we're in a creative space, so it makes sense that we're creator brand archetype. We like a three-archetype profile, because a lot of times we find that one of your archetypes will align you with your space. One will speak to how you're different. One will speak to how you take care of your clients. Our new brand archetypes, you want to hear a secret?

Cristina Amigoni: Sure.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Honestly. This is a live recording, you know, right?

Lyn Wineman: I know, right? Don't tell anyone. Our new brand archetypes, we're still creator, because we're still in this creative space. We're still magician, because we take people from one place to the other. Our lover brand archetype has switched to sage, which that is really what surprised me very much, because I still think, and part of what KidGlov is all about is taking great care of people and brands. But the sage aspect is really speaking to the expertise that we deliver. In the last five years, we've launched the book and really have become seen as experts in this branding process.

Off of the book, we launched our brand impact accelerator, which is a self-paced online community for people to learn our brand process, if they don't want to do a one-on-one agency engagement. We've become known as experts in the nonprofit space, in the health care space, and in the financial space, which has really helped us tap into some different client spaces as well. The sage part makes sense, but I have to admit, I see myself as a lover personality. The passion aspect of a lover personality really fits with my personal identity. For me, I had to say, all right, this is how people see us. Honestly, it's how we want to be seen, so we are going to evolve in that direction.

What you'll see also, secret between the two of us, three of us, and all of your listeners, what you'll see is it's like the KidGlov brand has grown up. You will see less whimsy, less focus on the buttons for those who know our brand. The buttons have been a big part of our brand, a deeper, richer color palette. I think of more modern shapes and visual identity. Of course, a new tagline that is really amazing, and I'm not going to give that up here.

Cristina Amigoni: That's April 24th.

Lyn Wineman: I’m going to keep that secret till April 21st. April 21st.

Cristina Amigoni: 1st.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Awesome. That's very exciting. Yes. I was just thinking, when you were saying, it's hard to go of the lover, because it's still a big part of who you are.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: I'm sure a big part of how KidGlov shows up, it's not like you just cut it off and be like, “Nope. That's no longer there. It's not an old sweater you just give away and that's it.” I wonder if it's more a I was thinking like Enneagram type, where it's like, oh, you're sage with a lover wing.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. Well, sage lover wing. I love that. That is what I want to be. I want to be a sage and lover wing.

Alex Cullimore: That's why your new headband can be a sage leaf with a heart on it.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Lyn Wineman: I know. I almost put it back on for the fifth time, and I'm resisting. I’m literally holding on to the arms of my chair, so I don't do it. Oh, you guys. Yeah. Here's what I think is interesting about the lover brand archetype. It is a core part of who we are, because our name, I mean, it's in our name. When you talk to our clients, one of the things they really appreciate is that we do take great care of our clients. We're very accountable. We do what we say we will. Sometimes I feel like we're more even invested in the outcome and the results in some cases, than our clients, which is a weird position to be in.

Something we have found is that when people go out to hire an advertising agency, there's very few Google searches for advertising agencies that are highly accountable and nice to work with. There should be more. There should be more. There are a lot of Google searches for advertising agencies that are experts.

Cristina Amigoni: That makes sense. And they're not mutually exclusive. You can be an expert –

Lyn Wineman: No.

Cristina Amigoni: - and also accountable, and nice to work with.

Alex Cullimore: One thing that occurs to be about the idea of the lover brand that has moved into sage is that you felt that was personally identifying very much the lover brand, and that as a business is down moving towards sage. That makes sense given what you're talking about in your journey. It's moved from, this is something that happens, I think with small businesses as they grow, it's so much a part of the founder's personality. Then it becomes its own thing. It feels maybe there's evolution from you, Lyn, will still continue to act as the lover archetype within the brand, and the brand itself has now taken on its own life and is moving into sage space.

Lyn Wineman: You know what? As a founder, that is what you want, right? You want your business to be more than you. Even the first time we went through our own process was when we became KidGlov. Because originally, this business that's going to be 16-years-old on May 14th, we started as Wineman Communications Group, which is a very boring, non-disruptive name. It described exactly what we do. It made me very easily findable. It didn't take too long before I realized, this business is about way more than me, right? Sometimes I even get that question. People will ask me, why do you have an advertising agency named KidGlov?

What I will tell you is when the name of my business was Wineman Communications Group, not a single person asked me about the business. They didn't ask me what was special, because they thought they knew, right? But then, when we became KidGlov, every time somebody asks me that question, it is an invitation for me to tell the story that we take great care of brands and we take great care of people, which shouldn't be a unique selling point for a whole industry, but –

Cristina Amigoni: Unfortunately.

Lyn Wineman: Taking care of great people. Well, yeah, you guys see it across the board, right? But taking care of people is an interesting aspect, and it doesn't just benefit the people that work here. I mean, all of our clients benefit from the fact that we have very long-term staff longevity. I mean, the last time I had a person leave voluntarily, my staff was two years ago, right, unheard of in the advertising space. My team works together very well. One of the reasons they do is because you have helped us and we have leaned so deeply into the Working Genius.

As a matter of fact, the meeting I told you about that we were celebrating, I mean, one of the things we were joking about was widget powers activate. Do you remember the Power Rangers, right?

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes.

Lyn Wineman: We did the virtual fist pump, because we realized, hey, we have a full widget on this team. We know that that is going to make the work more fun, more fulfilling and easier. We did have to call out on the team. We only had one discernment and one galvanizing genius. It's like, all right, discernment, you're going to have to talk twice as loud. Galvanizing, don't worry about me. I will always talk twice as loud. No worry there, right? I mean, on the team, too, though, we had two wonders, three innovators and two enablers. Oh, only one tenacity, too. Yeah, she's going to have to keep us all in line.

Alex Cullimore: The person’s going to be busy.

Cristina Amigoni: Feel for Nicole.

Lyn Wineman: We're going to have to send her flowers, I think. Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, that's wonderful.

Alex Cullimore: In an interesting update to Working Genius land, we just got an email at the end of the year last year from Working Genius itself. They've done this now with one and a half million people have taken this this assessment across the globe.

Lyn Wineman: Wow.

Alex Cullimore: What they've found is that actually, the two least common geniuses are I and G.

Lyn Wineman: Really?

Alex Cullimore: You're living in a rarefied space.

Cristina Amigoni: So you can put your unicorn head back on. Yeah. All right. I just going to leave it on for a while. I always think about people who have geniuses that to me seem so far apart, right? I have a couple of people that I know and love and work with who are wonder and tenacity geniuses. I'm like, wow, you must be arguing in your head all the time, right? About, “Oh, should I ask more questions? Do I have all the information? How do I get this all done?” It's like, I just can't even imagine what life would be like in that space.

Cristina Amigoni: Nicole on our team has those geniuses. Yes. I hope that some of the arguments come out of her head and with us, that she has a psychological safety. She seems to have that psychological safety, where she wants to get it done. But then she still has questions, and so she goes like, “Can I ask the questions?”

Lyn Wineman: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: We find it very helpful to have somebody like that on the team.

Lyn Wineman: Well, that’s good.

Cristina Amigoni: Because especially when we get into that mode of, okay, we just got to do, do, do, do, do, even though tenacity is both Alex and I frustration. If we rarely get to that, like we just got to do.

Lyn Wineman: I'm so glad you found a team that could work with the two of you.

Cristina Amigoni: Even for my own geniuses, when I get into my discernment and my enablement pieces, she's the one that will pull me out when it's like, hey, that the wonder that the big why hasn't been established yet. Or what you're discerning has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

Lyn Wineman: Yes. We've even started having meetings, where we will uninvite people who have the frustration, right? I got recently uninvited from a wonder meeting, because I am a wonder frustration. Someone very nicely said to me, just putting the words what if in front of an idea does not make this a wonder.

Cristina Amigoni: It's very true.

Lyn Wineman: I'm like, what if we did this and this and this? Or what if we did this and this and this? What if we did? They're like, “Stop.”

Cristina Amigoni: It’s not wonder.

Lyn Wineman: We're muting you and sending you away from this team's meeting.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, yes, yes.

Lyn Wineman: What's great about the system is that I also then don't have to take offense at that, right? I understand it. I get it. I know that's my frustration. I know what they need to do in that time is not probably the best thing for me to add to. On the flip side, our COO, Katherine Warren, who you've also had on the show, who is absolutely amazing, she's an I frustration, right? She and I will sometimes pass each other coming and going. It's like, okay, the wondering is going to happen. The ideating is going to happen. Then Katherine's going to come in, and she is so good at going that, that, and that. The rest. She's very nice. She's like, “The rest, we’ll just put on a list for later.” One of my fellow idea people, actually a couple weeks ago said, “Where actually is that list?”

Cristina Amigoni: Like the tenacity person.

Lyn Wineman: You’ve been pulling that for a long time. Where is the list?

Cristina Amigoni: I like that. We should have a list for later for Alex, too.

Lyn Wineman: Yes. Alex, you understand, you and I can commit. Maybe your list and my list are next to each other somewhere in the great abyss.

Alex Cullimore: I really appreciated when you were like, “I like change.” Because that's definitely, I think, to my entire team's frustration, something I enjoy. I can't do the same thing when it's not changing. That gets frustrating.

Lyn Wineman: Oh, right? Yes. Alex, same thing. If you told me, “Lyn, you cannot change.” Honestly, even just saying those words out loud, I feel tension bubbling up in my chest. Like, what do you mean, I can't change? Change is the only way we are going to make it through all of this.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I'm the same way.

Alex Cullimore: Agreed.

Cristina Amigoni: The good thing that in the dynamics of a team, and you mentioned this even for your team is like, there's the personal attack gets taken away, now that you have the language and you understand how it all works. We see it even within our own team, especially with Nicole, because she is the one that pulls us to like, “Hey, are we actually going to the same direction? We're talking about the same thing here. Do we actually ask? Do we answer the big why?” Then she does the tenacity work of making sure that we have something that, too –

Alex Cullimore: That answers the why.

Cristina Amigoni: That's produced. When we are putting together presentations, webinars, we walk through the whole process. She puts together the slides. Then Alex and I, as the presenter, the facilitators get together for prep. We change almost every single slide that she just spent two weeks putting together. We let her know, and we apologize. She's like, “Oh, no. I'm good.” It's like, “You're doing you. I did my part. I'm out.” It is not a personal attack that you're going to change slides.

Lyn Wineman: I asked the questions. I got you to get it done. Whether you use my slides or not. I think that's maybe why I'm our most difficult client at KidGlov, because I like change. I like to come up with new ideas. I really love the sport of convincing people that the ideas are good and that we must do them and that we can do them, which makes me somewhat difficult to say no to.

Alex Cullimore: That is, ING.

Cristina Amigoni: I like you call that as book – ING.

Lyn Wineman: I see it as a sport. I was telling someone the other day, they were like, you're going to – because I'm going to go do a presentation for a client. They were explaining to me, this is going to be really difficult, because everyone in the room is not going to want to do this thing that you are going to be presenting. I'm like, yes, bring it on. I cannot wait. Give me an angry mob. Let me turn them.

Cristina Amigoni: I just came up with an idea.

Lyn Wineman: Oh, yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Which, if this actually happens, we expect royalties from the Table Group and the Working –

Lyn Wineman: Okay. I love it. I love it.

Cristina Amigoni: Not from you. From the Table Group and the Working Genius. Because you talked about how it's a sport. I'm like, we should have Working Genius Olympics.

Lyn Wineman: I love that. I love that. Yes. Let's do it. It would have all the weird things. There would be no athletics.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. No. Yeah.

Lyn Wineman: It would be –

Cristina Amigoni: The best list.

Lyn Wineman: Right? The most helpful emojis in the emails, and the most rapid-fire ideas that can be put into a Milanote board as fast as possible.

Cristina Amigoni: You and Alex would win.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. Yeah. The most angry people flipped. Then the wanderers, I don't know what you would do. The most questions asked.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Lyn Wineman: I know. Alex, you're a wanderer. You'll have to identify. I can't identify.

Alex Cullimore: I can't differentiate between wondering and invention half the time.

Lyn Wineman: You got the continuous loop going on there.

Alex Cullimore: Well, what if we did this whole thing entirely differently? The big picture was different.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. I love it. That is a really good idea.

Cristina Amigoni: Would you do Olympics?

Lyn Wineman: The discerners would just be like, they just be like –

Cristina Amigoni: Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Yes. Yes.

Lyn Wineman: That's 100% what would be asked.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Catherine and I can walk in the room blindfolded and just point and be like, it's that one. Go.

Lyn Wineman: The galvanizers would be, “But wait, I haven't told you all the stories yet. Wait, there’s more. Let me try this again.”

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. One of the things you've shared with us is how you even use the framework with clients, when working with clients. How is that going?

Lyn Wineman: It's going pretty well. When we bring on a new client, in some cases, we will do a Working Genius Assessment and we will map their team and we will map our team. It's really helpful for us to all be able to understand and articulate how we're going to work together. I find that it's particularly helpful, because more and more of us are working remotely now. We'll work with clients for six months, maybe even a year before we meet them in person. Sometimes you don't have that opportunity to read the body language, or to see what they were like when they walked into the room, or even to have the small talk that you have before and after an in-person meeting. We find it to be very helpful there.

We also find it to be really helpful to know how to present ideas, right? If we know that our client is in the wonder space, or the idea space, we're going to bring them in very early to a process. We might even – I was showing you before we hit record, I was showing you a sketch that I did, right? We might even bring them in at a marker sketch stage and say, “Hey, these are the ideas we're thinking about, because we know they're going to want to ask the questions, or maybe add to the idea being part of the process.”

Whereas, if we've got a client who's more maybe in the discernment, or even the tenacity space, they're not going to want to see something so loose. That is going to create major anxiety for them. We know for those clients, we need to button it up, have the details put together and be further along in the process when we share. It's really helpful to know where your key decision makers are and what feels like a sport to them and what feels very heavy, right? I've been thinking, did you two watch the Winter Olympics?

Cristina Amigoni: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Lyn Wineman: I have been thinking so much about Alysa Liu's story. What would it be like if we all pulled on Alysa Liu and we said, “Hey, we're going to change our work, so that we're finding joy in what we do.” I have thought so much about that. What are the things that we can do to bring joy, versus the things that we do that stress us out and make it feel like drudgery, right? I think Working Genius is part of the answer to that. I think there's more layers that I bet the two of you could really help people, if you need the Alysa Liu package at Siamo, I think.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, we do.

Alex Cullimore: I like that idea.

Cristina Amigoni: One, clearly, you win gold.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah, right? Well, what I love about her story is it was such a good example of how – I mean, she's definitely a prodigy, right? She's so talented, and so successful early on. But when her sport, her love became drudgery, she was no longer as good at it. Then she stepped away and came back in a way. Now, not all of us can come back to work on completely our own terms. But I think that we could all think a lot more about how do we bring joy to the work. I don't know about the two of you, but I think about myself coming up through college and being young in business and all the things that I was taught about being tough and laying down the line and telling people what they needed to hear. That is the opposite of joy.

I really like, I'm spending time every day thinking about, how can I reframe this conversation I'm going to have that could potentially be a difficult conversation? How can we flip it? You can't always flip it. Sometimes things are just tough and you have to talk about it. But how can you take the edge off of it?

Alex Cullimore: True. I like that idea. I think that Working Genius, it gives people a good handle into this world, because it's easy, non-defensive language that you can pretty quickly grasp onto. I think for sure, there's a deeper level that you can think about of what feels like sport to you. I love how you describe it as a sport. I think that's a good way of helping people connect to it. What does feel like sport? Then you can start to see how your geniuses might interact and how you might further refine specifically for you what those geniuses look like. I think that there's so much, I kept saying that over and over with Alysa Liu is like, look, you don't have to just highly pressurize these people. You don't have to just turn this into a miserable say, like she wins, because she had the skills and could finally let go enough to enjoy it.

Lyn Wineman: Right. One other thing that occurs to me, and this is maybe a weird connection, but I think finding joy, even though we can use the Working Genius as a tool, I do think it's to a certain extent, a very individual thing, too. One of the things I've heard the two of you say about your work is there's no cookie cutter, right? Even though you've got a Working Genius framework and the learning, it's not a cookie cutter process. I'm going to link that back to marketing, too. I think the best marketing focuses on the individuality of the audiences, right? Somebody taught me this a long time ago, and it still is with me that empathy is better than data in marketing every day of the week.

Cristina Amigoni: I like that.

Lyn Wineman: I think for both your business and my business really uncovering the human aspect of it all is really key. When I'm working on a brand, or a marketing plan, or a TV commercial, or a website, really understanding who it's for and what their pain points are, what they're going through, what they need, what does relief look like for them, and presenting that back to them is a really key aspect. Even, I've been thinking a lot lately about how do we make sure audiences feel seen in this work? How do we word this, or present it visually, so that someone can really relate to it? I think it's easy now with AI and all the tools that we have, and all the data that we have to forget that at the end of the day, there is a human receiving this message and a human that is either going to decide to take action, or not take action.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and going back to change, that action is a change. Marketing and branding, essentially, is galvanizing people to make a change.

Lyn Wineman: Right. 100% it is. Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, it's crucial to actually appeal to the audiences. From a change space perspective, we've seen it. We've implemented the same technology to 100 different clients in the same processes. It's the same technology, and every single application, every single change project is completely different, because the humans are different. The approach has to be different on how we talk about it, when we talk about it, when we show the technology, when it's a technology, when we apply the process, all of these things are very individual.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. You know what? I'd liken it to, going back, we do have our brand advancement process that we use. We almost always go through the same steps, but we tailor them. Part of what the steps do is they help us understand the individuality of a certain situation, too, right? Defining the brand archetype. Understanding the perception of their best audiences. Making sure we're really nailing down their vision for where they're going, before we get too far in the weeds on the creative work.

Cristina Amigoni: More sports.

Lyn Wineman: more sports. Wow. That is crazy that I'm talking about sports, because I'm quite frankly the least athletic person that either of you know.

Alex Cullimore: I could give you a run for your money, but I'm not going to run.

Cristina Amigoni: You have run.

Alex Cullimore: I have. Just there is a lot of time again.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah, you've run a marathon.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. He’s done marathons and triathlons.

Alex Cullimore: That was a long time.

Lyn Wineman: A few years ago, I decided that I was going to run a 5K, not even a 10K, of K. I trained for it. I talked to people. I made my playlist. As much as I went on and on and on about the 5K, you would have thought I was doing an ultra-marathon. My parents came. It was just at the YMCA. My parents came and watched. I had a friend that came and did it with me, and bless her heart, she was 10 years older than me. She did the 5K with me. She finished it and then ran back to finish it with me. But I did do it. I did do it.

Cristina Amigoni: You did the 5K. There you go.

Lyn Wineman: Then right after that, I had to have my knee replaced. My orthopedic surgeon said, “Please, stop running.” I am heeding that advice. Maybe the only thing I'm 100% compliant on, but 100% compliant on no running.

Cristina Amigoni: You would think that he would want more business. There you go.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. Yeah. No, he got it. He's done both of my knees. It's amazing. It's amazing. I'm right –

Cristina Amigoni: He’s like, “You’re out of knees, so please stop running.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah. He has said, I should take care of these, because you don't want to replace a knee more than once.

Cristina Amigoni: That sounds painful even the first time.

Lyn Wineman: No running. The new knees are wonderful. Whenever I go hiking, or I'm doing something for me is physically strenuous. I'm like, I need to sit down.

Cristina Amigoni: Hiking is physically straining.

Lyn Wineman: Thank you. No. Yeah. I mean, we were in South Africa on Safari. I got to hike the top of Table Mountain, which is amazing. It feels like you're walking on the moon. It's very weird, squishy, but rocky terrain all at the same time, but also flat, which is weird. I was like, I'd never be able to do that without the new knees. Yes, there you go. That was not a paid endorsement.

Cristina Amigoni: For your doctor. Not a paid endorsement.

Lyn Wineman: Not a paid endorsement.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, thank you, Lyn. We could talk about a million other things, for sure, and I'm sure we will. We can't wait for the April 21st.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. It’d be exciting to see the new brand.

Cristina Amigoni: The uncovering of the new KidGlov in an on weird way. In a good way.

Alex Cullimore: As KidGlov gets to AdolescentGlov, but without changing itself.

Lyn Wineman: No. I can't wait. Your audience is all invited. I'll get you a link before we launch this episode. It'll be a great fun case study of how a brand evolves. We'll go through the steps of how to do it. I bet, we'll even have some fun giveaways. The kicker will be, now you've challenged me, I must find a new headband. We'll reveal the new headband at a brand launch. How about that?

Alex Cullimore: Feel like just a crown of sage would do well.

Cristina Amigoni: With hearts, though. We need the lover wing.

Lyn Wineman: Oh, the crown of sage with hearts. All right.

Cristina Amigoni: I'm going to be in the lookout. If I see anything else, I’ll send it to you.

Lyn Wineman: Okay.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. It's probably in some kind of Julius Caesar costume.

Lyn Wineman: Yes. I need to find a costume designer, I think. Oh, man. This is how ideation and galvanizing gets out of hand fast. We are officially derailing at this moment. There are discerners all over my office going, “Oh, no.”

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Now we're not hunting for sage.

Lyn Wineman: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Somebody help us.

Alex Cullimore: Maybe I’m a sage guy.

Lyn Wineman: Catherine. They’re all calling for Catherine to get any help. Catherine, I probably need an intervention.

Cristina Amigoni: Get those ideas. Put them on your list, Catherine. Put them on your list.

Lyn Wineman: Yes, that's right. That's right. Put them on the idea list.

Cristina Amigoni: Idea list.

Lyn Wineman: I love it. Thank you, guys, for having me on. I love the show.

Cristina Amigoni: Of course.

Lyn Wineman: I’m a big, big fan. I appreciate you having me back. I always love to talk about your work and I love to talk about my work, too. I'm just weird that way.

Cristina Amigoni: Your work is awesome.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes.

Alex Cullimore: Galvanizing all around.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. 

Lyn Wineman: There you go.

Cristina Amigoni: We do have one last question for you.

Lyn Wineman: Oh, what?

Cristina Amigoni: What is your definition of authenticity? We will go back and see what you said the first time.

Lyn Wineman: Ooh. Oh, I wish I could remember what I said the first time. But I bet, I think I have evolved in the last two years. I believe, authenticity is feeling at total peace, being so much of yourself that you are just radiating peace of mind.

Alex Cullimore: With gold unicorn ears as well when possible.

Lyn Wineman: Yes. Radiating Queen Bee energy. See, this is who I am. Queen Bee, unicorn.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, queen bee. There you go. Actually, it fits really well together, because the antennas are behind the ears, so it looks like it's one head.

Lyn Wineman: I'm very nervous that this is the image that's going to show up on social media.

Alex Cullimore: I hope that's the image on social media.

Lyn Wineman: But as long as you're doing it, let me get the booking.

Cristina Amigoni: We may actually get people to watch the YouTube video.

Lyn Wineman: Oh, wow.

Cristina Amigoni: I know. Okay.

Lyn Wineman: All right, you guys. Thank you so much. Always so much fun. I hope the next time we talk, there's wine and gnocchi involved.

Alex Cullimore: There will be.

Cristina Amigoni: Hey, I'm thinking pizza. Homemade pizza.

Lyn Wineman: Pizza sounds great. All right. Bye you all.

Cristina Amigoni: Bye-bye.

Alex Cullimore: See you, Lyn.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

Alex Cullimore: Thanks so much for listening to Uncover the Human. We Are Siamo, that is the company that sponsors and created this podcast. If you’d like to reach out to us further, reach out with any questions or to be on the podcast, please reach out to podcast@wearesiamo.com. Or you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is @wearesiamo, S-I-A-M-O. Or you can go to wearesiamo.com and check us out there. Or, I suppose, Cristina, you and I have LinkedIn as well. People could find us anywhere else.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, we do have LinkedIn. Yes. Yeah. We’d like to thank Abbay Robinson for producing our podcast and making sure that they actually reach all of you. And Rachel Sherwood for the wonderful score.

Alex Cullimore: Thank you guys so much for listening. Tune in next time.

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. 

[END]