Connecting with Nina Cashman on Mastering Career Transitions

EPISODE 26

[00:00:00] CA: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

[00:00:06] AC: Whether that's with our families, co-workers or even ourselves. 

[00:00:09] CA: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens. 

[00:00:12] AC: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

[00:00:13] CA: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

[00:00:15] AC: Let’s dive in. 

[00:00:15] CA: Let’s dive in. 

[00:00:18] Guests: Authenticity means freedom. 

Authenticity means going with your gut.

Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.

Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself. 

It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true. 

Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be. 

It's transparency, relatability, no frills, no makeup, just being.= 

[00:00:54] AC: Well, hello, and welcome back to Uncover the Human. This week, we are joined with our guest, Nina Cashman. Nina Cashman is a coach, has been for a while. She's just started her own master class online, which you can get to. Nina, do you want to tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into this?

[00:01:08] NC: Yeah, loaded questions. So, I'm actually going to start with how I got into this master class, because there's such a lead up to even this point, I think there's many chapters to every person's story. And I would say, for me, I've been in this latest story, I guess, of my current career path for the last seven years. Ad there's already been several chapters to it, which is what happens, I think, when you start any endeavor. And one of the chapters that I'm most excited about is this program that I developed in the last year. It's almost kind of my COVID project in a sense. Everyone had something and COVID that we learned something about ourselves or maybe focused on. 

And this was something that was a deep focus of mine. And it's a group online coaching program that I developed in this past year called the Pave Challenge, specifically designed for people who are experiencing career transition or been contemplating a career transition and maybe feeling a little bit overwhelmed with the current resources that are out there. Because I think a lot of what's out there tries to push you into going into arenas or making decisions that we're not always necessarily ready for when we're actually in the midst of what I call a transitional hallway, which is we're totally confused. We don't know what we want. 

And I think there's a lot of value to saying staying in that space and embracing the discomfort of that space a little bit before you move into the next doorway. So, I designed to this program so people can explore this transitional hallway. So, when they do take the next step forward, they feel fully confident and clear about it. And it feels like a decision that's coming from themselves as opposed to pleasing others, or as opposed to satisfying what some other expert out there told us to do, which a lot of us fall prey to, especially in the most vulnerable periods of our lives. Because when we're in a transition, we're not always trusting ourselves, we're not always feeling fully confident. So, we seek advice outside of ourselves. And I noticed that so much throughout the other chapters of my seven years as a career coach and an executive coach, that so many people come to me seeking advice, when the truth is they often have the answers within. So, in a nutshell, that's kind of how I started where I am now.

[00:03:40] AC: I just love the term transitional hallway. I don't think I'm going to get over that image. 

[00:03:42] CA: Yes.

[00:03:44] AC: That's great.

[00:03:45] CA: I actually felt like I was in that hallway as you were talking about it, because I know I've been in it many times.

[00:03:52] NC: Yeah, so many of us have. And I think especially in our age group, and by our age group, I mean, the three of us who are speaking and probably those who are listening have experienced it too. But I can speak for myself, yes, I'll just throw my age out there. I'm in my early 40s, almost mid-40s. I can't believe it. And I think that you don't get to the middle of your life without experiencing several transitions. And I can see Cristina that, yeah, you know what I mean by a hallway. It's long sometimes. Oftentimes it's bear. Sometimes there're a lot of things in it. But the point is you don't always know where to turn, you don't know how long you're going to be walking in it.  

It's not the most comfortable place. It's not like there's really a chair to sit down and rest. You don't feel fully secure there. And yet the world is often telling us to go-go-go, to make it happen. You can do it! And it's like, “Wait a minute.” Sometimes it's really worth sort of evaluating the space that you're in before you walk into the next door that's going to take you into a room that looks just like the last room you walked out off before you got into the hallway. So yeah, the symbolism, Alex, can go on and on and on and on. I will stop myself before I embarrass myself actually.

[00:05:14] CA: It totally reminds me of one of our coaching session. Actually, for everybody on the podcast, Nina is one of my coaches. Well, she's my original coach, THE coach, as well as one of my closest friends. And I remember when I was going through my last transition a couple of years ago, which I feel like I'm still in, but we're getting there, the door analogy was one that I remember thinking of quite a bit because I realized that I was so lost in the hallway that I kept trying to open the one door that I recognized, which was from the past. And in doing that I didn't realize that there were five doors that were available for me to look into behind me.

[00:05:59] NC: What a great point and such a perfect reminder of a concept that I love. It may have originated – Don't quote me on this. I think it may have originated by Carl Jung. I learned the concept actually from IPEC, which is the Institute for Professional Excellence of Coaching. I have my background as a coach from IPEC, so does Cristina. And Alex, you're probably tired of hearing about it since you work with people in this realm. We tend to be excited about it. But one of my favorite concepts that I learned in IPEC is a concept called self-fate. And self-fate is the idea that we think we're making choices moment to moment. The truth is we're not making choices. And by we in present time – By we, I'm talking about the we in present time. I am not making choices right now. Usually, my past is. Who I was yesterday? Who I was actually throughout my whole life? All the experiences, the sum total of all those experiences that take me to the present time, are what form my consciousness or my lens. 

And that is the lens that's making decisions for me moving forward. So, while we think we're making choices, and we're free to make choices, we're actually fated by our past. That is until we wake up in present time. And that requires that we decide in the present moment who we are and what it is we want. And we define that for ourselves as opposed to letting the past to dictate it for us. I bring that up, Cristina, because you talk about how you only saw that one door. And I think that is so common. I too, I can relate to that completely and I think most people can. You only see that one door and of course you're only going to see that one door if you're not fully awake to your presence. 

And if you aren't aware that the past could be fading you, because that past is really directed or channeled to look in one direction. And yet only when we do kind of stop and take a look around that all of the possibilities available to us, which we can only do if we leave space for ourselves to be something that's maybe potentially different than what we've ever experienced or what we've been before. We would never see another door. Only then do we realize like, “Oh my gosh! This is like a long hallway,” which means there're lots of opportunities. There are several doors. This is not the only opportunity that I have to walk through.” That's when the world gets pretty exciting. And I would say what also comes with that is a bit of overwhelm, because now it's like, “Oh! Now I have a lot of options from which to choose.” And that's something that we have to address a bit as well in a transition, is the overwhelm, that we then feel when we're presented with a lot of choices that can be both exciting and also maybe a little confusing.

[00:09:16] AC: I think that overwhelm also can sometimes lead us back to our original doors. We start to feel the stress, we feel the pressure and we resort more to what feels familiar, and it's very easy to turn back to. “Well, I'm going to I'm going to take the short version of the hallway because that I can at least understand. I know the obstacles in that hallway.”

[00:09:33] NC: Yeah, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. Unknowns are always scary. And I think the fear of the unknown is what keeps many of us in the same doors with different cast of characters, but yet similar stories.

[00:09:54] CA: Sometimes the same cast of characters.

[00:09:57] NC: Yes. That’s true. It’s like, “Wait a minute. How do you get in here too? I thought you said goodbye in the last room? Wait a minute.”

[00:10:05] AC: Is there another hallway around here? 

[00:10:08] CA: It’s like magic tricks where all doors come into the same room. And it looks different because somebody painted the walls, but it's the same character, same doors, same experience.

[00:10:28] NC: Maybe my next program should be about the escape room. How you get out of that room feeding yourself. How you look for opportunities within the room. 

[00:10:43] AC: The Groundhog Day course. 

[00:10:45] CA: Yes. Oh my goodness.

[00:10:48] AC: So what made you interested in transitions as like a focus? It's such an important general part of our lives in such a great way to place to focus. But why that?

[00:10:58] NC: In coaching, we often say that the niche finds you. And I would say that is what happened with career transition coaching. So when I went through my coach training, truthfully, I entered the door in coach training. Yes, I thought it was a possibility long down the road. Maybe someday, I might become a coach or start my own thing. At the time, when I enrolled, though, I was really looking to develop myself as a leader. I was a little bit probably experiencing some imposter syndrome for a recent job change that I was experiencing, which changed the dynamic of my role and who I was managing. And I realized I needed some help. I needed to amplify my leadership skills. 

So I enrolled on my own in this program. And I just figured if I ever did anything as a coach that I would work in corporate and I would work with leaders in corporate, and that was just probably because that's what I knew. That was my door that I just kept walking through those doors. And then when I actually did it, which is a whole other kind of track of, “Wow!” just kind of betting on myself finally, like, “Yeah, gosh! I'm a hard worker, and I work really hard for other people.” And I actually like working hard. That's a part, that's an aspect of who I am. Effort makes me feel good when I put myself out there and get my hands dirty. That's what makes me feel alive. And maybe it's time that I do that for myself. 

And so I started my coaching practice thinking I was going to go down the road, this road of – And I'm air quoting here, “being a corporate coach”. I didn't really know what that meant. I just kind of threw that word out there. I'm just going to be a coach that works in corporate, whatever that is. And what ended up happening is, I think a lot of people in my world were actually maybe a little shocked or surprised that I had done what I was doing. Because here I had worked in advertising and marketing for 17 years and now suddenly I was kind of putting myself that I think a lot of corporate types would call maybe an HR role or certainly a different role than what I was in. And it was appealing, I guess, to some people who ended up calling me as my first clients, because the question was, “How did you do it?” Paired with, “I want to do that too. I am I'm interested in leaving everything I've known to start this idea that I have,” or maybe to become a coach, or maybe to just whatever the idea was. And so that business just started naturally coming because of who I am and what my story is. So coming back to I always say, the niche found me.

[00:13:43] AC: I really like that idea of it being guided by your own story. Because I think that's where we find so much our ability to change things and our like passion for changing things. It comes from where we've been and what we'd like to do. And that's such an important part of starting your own thing. If you want to have that passion play and that feeling of like, “Hey, I've got something.” At least in my experience, that feels like the best fit, is when you can really tie that into your own stories. That makes a lot of sense that you get through that transition period and find the way to guide people in their own transitions.

[00:14:12] NC: Yeah. That's such a great point you bring up, Alex. Because I'm even noticing as I dive further and further into this – I called it kind of a chapter book. I'm kind of at seven years of hopefully a very, very long, long novel, because I love what I do. I love being a coach. And I plan to be around for quite some time. And I have found over these years, and I'm still working on it actually, that the more you show of yourself, the more the people who can benefit from you the most and you can also. You relate to the most you can benefit from, because we benefit from our clients insanely, probably more than they want to know. They might not pay us. [inaudible 00:14:54]. 

The more you show of yourself, it's like the more attractive it is. I've noticed that even in my writing. It's like I have a tendency to kind of right out here, kind of keep things outside of me. But the times where I've really involved deep personal stuff into what I'm writing. Those are the times where people are writing me like, “Hey, what happened here? Did you take a writing class?” Or it's like, “No. I guess I just exposed myself is what I did.” So I love that you brought that up, because I'm experiencing that like in this very moment, and I can't say I've gotten good at fully sharing of myself. But I have you noticed that particularly in the last, I would say, a year, or six months even.

[00:15:42] CA: Yeah. People are very attracted to humans, and knowing that other people are humans too. That not everything is great for them, but they're struggling too. That there is a journey and the journey is not always known. There's a hallway, and it's confusing. And I find that we were talking about before we started a podcast on how random posts or what we think are random posts become super popular, and we never thought they would be. And I remember when I shared climbing my first fourteener, last summer, and I shared it on LinkedIn. And it was all about fear. And the fear that I discovered, or remembered more than discovered of heights once I got to the last little bit. And I was like, “Oh, wait. This is not just the climb. I have to be on top of that. I can't do that. And what do I do here?” And I think it's still one of my most popular posts. And it's just about me being really afraid and crawling down the mountain on all four limbs that I could touch the rocks with.

[00:16:43] NC: Yeah. Yeah, not that the experience itself was easy. It sounds really hard. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised if crafting that post was effortless. Because it's like this is just what happened and how I felt, done. 

[00:16:59] CA: Yeah. It was.

[00:17:00] NC: Right? Yeah. And then some of these other posts you spent like – And by posts, I'm talking like maybe an article or something. You slaved over for hours talking outside of yourself all these facts and connecting dots and all of this. And like no one even reads it.

[00:17:20] CA: Statistics. And they're like, “Yeah, I don't care. Give me your personal story.”

[00:17:23] NC: Exactly. Yeah. And I mean that’s I guess what it comes down to the title of your podcast, Uncovering the Human. Yeah, I mean, the benefits that come with that. And the truth is, is many of us lose track with who that human is, ourselves. I know that I've definitely lost track of that. And the times that I felt out of touch with who I am is when life really became the most chaotic, where I found myself in a lot of let's just call them pickles situation where like even get in this situation. Like they think this, I think that. Like what is even happening? 

It's like, well, when you don't inform the world of who you are, then they're trying to figure it out for you. And whether it meshes with you or not, everyone's trying to figure it out for you. And so it's either you figure it out, or the world's going to figure it out. And one person has probably more stake in the game than everyone else. And that person is you. That definition, that uncovering the human for yourself, is the start of the process. And a full circle back to this shameless plug of my program. It really is full circle of it. This is actually why I also created that program, because too many people look at career transition as how do I impress others? How do I make my resume look good? How do I show up well in the interview? It's like, “Well, how can you do that if you've disconnected from yourself?” Yeah, if you don't have your own confidence to the point where you're asking others how to write your resume, that in and of itself is where the issue lies. That is what we need to address. Who are you as a human and how do we uncover it essentially? So maybe we need to do some cross-promotion is what I'm getting at.

[00:19:24] CA: It sounds like it.

[00:19:27] AC: Speaking of which, your title is an excellent title. Do you want to share it? 

[00:19:31] NC: My title of – 

[00:19:32] AC: Of the master class, of your program.

[00:19:36] NC: Yeah. Well, yeah, there is a master class that anyone is welcome to sign up for. And you access it by going to paveyourway.com/masterclass. And essentially, what it will do is introduce you to the Pave Challenge. That's the name of the program, the Pave Challenge. And note that I put challenge in there, because some people don't like that word, challenge. And I do like the word challenge. Maybe that's the stoic in me, because I firmly believe that oftentimes the obstacle is the way. So instead of trying to skip over the transition and make everything comfortable, it's like, “Well, maybe getting a little uncomfortable is exactly what it's going to take to, again, uncover your soul, uncover what it is you really want.” And to sit with that a little bit. So it is a challenge to dive deeply inside of yourself, and I want it to fully be open about that and transparent. 

And yet, there's so much beauty that comes with that challenge. I don't know about you. We were talking about this a little bit earlier this week. I don't know about you. But I tend to feel best after a good workout, like a hard workout. Or I feel great having my husband and I love to pour scotch on a Friday. I feel so good taking a sip of that scotch after a week where so much of my list was crossed-off. I get a great night's rest when I know even if nothing really went anywhere that day, in terms of outcome, I knew that my effort was solid. I can sleep at night really, really well knowing that happened. So effort and challenge I think is a part of what keeps us playing the game of life. It’s what keeps us alive. It's what keeps us feeling purposeful. We don't even have to talk about purpose if we're putting in effort. Purpose is a kind of a thing of the ego. And yet when we're exerting effort, we just naturally feel purposeful no matter what. So that's the name of the program. And this 90-minute master class, if you're interested, if your interest is piqued, anyone who's listening, you can learn a little bit more about it through that master class.

[00:21:44] AC: I like that Pave Your Way. I mean, it tells you what you're looking for, it’s your way, but also the pave. Like you're there to create this path forward. You're there to like really form it for yourself make sure you made the hallway rather than you're just kind of existing in the hallway. But I think months and months ago, Cristina, I think you told me this, and now that I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking it might have been Nina who told you this. You were talking about somebody who told you that – So, you're saying you want to do something challenging, but you don't want to be challenged? This sounds like the advice that had been given, but that sounds like Nina. 

[00:22:20] CA: Oh, my goodness!

[00:22:22] NC: Isn't that the truth, though?

[00:22:24] CA: It is. 

[00:22:24] NC: We have a lot, and myself included. It’s like, “I want this, but I’m willing to –” The minute it gets hard, “No. I’m out.” And I think that's especially relevant for anyone who wants to try something new. I think it's just inevitable that you're going to hit these points where you just don't know what you're doing. And that's the stuff that I think separates those who make it in their endeavors versus those who don't actually. Those who make it are always going to push through that stuff, learn the lessons and keep going. And those who don't push through that stuff will go back to the old door. They'll go back to what they know. It's what forms the 80-20 rule. And almost every industry where 20% of the most successful people are doing 80% of the business, I believe it's that factor alone. Just some people are more willing to encounter challenges and push through them and keep going. Others are unwilling to do that. And everything we want that glows on the other side of the door does involve some little – Let's call them surprises that are lurking around the corner.

[00:23:39] CA: Yes. New ways the door closes when you try to open it.

[00:23:44] NC: Yes, exactly, exactly.

[00:23:48] CA: I really like the fact that you talk about uncovering yourself first as you go through this journey. Because I think there's also a tendency, and I've been in that position as well, where you go through a transition, and it moves fairly fast. Or what you think the right time should be at that moment. And you encounter hard. And yet, you haven't done the real work to uncover yourself first and really know what it is. And so the hard that you're encountering, it's not the challenge that you should be banging your head against. It's the wanting to change that old room to look new. But it's not. But you're not willing to change yourself first. You're willing to go back into that room. And now you're upset that the room is the same?

[00:24:37] NC: Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of that old Wayne Dyer quote. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And in order to change the way you look at things, it really does require looking at your past, looking at yourself who you are in present time. And there're so many great resources to do that. And I would say, regardless of what avenue you take to look at yourself, what it requires, in all cases is a little bit of time. Which is why I'm such a proponent of taking the time and space that really you owe yourself to find that doorway that would make you live a more satisfying life, not because it's better, but because if you can have a more satisfying life, why not? 

I mean, if we're here once, or depending on your belief system, maybe where we come to life in different forms a lot. Maybe this is our only life. Whatever it is, this experience and this body, this human, this is the only time. And so if you have the possibility to experience it in a way that's more satisfying, then why not take it? Because you can.

[00:25:59] CA: So true.  On a side note, it just reminds me that my son, my six year old at lunch, for some reason looked at me, and I have no idea why he came up with that. But he looked at me, he's like, “This is not our only life, right? I'm coming back.”

[00:26:12] NC: See that with your son. Just a sidebar, I see it in his eyes. He knows something. This guy knows something. 

[00:26:20] CA: He knows something, because it wasn't a question. He wasn't asking me to validate. He was just stating to make sure I knew what the deal was. He’s like, “I know the deal. I need to share with you. You know this is not our only life, right? We're coming back.” 

[00:26:36] AC: This is our shared understanding.

[00:26:38] CA: Yes. 

[00:26:40] NC: IT’s like, “Chill out, Mom.  You know that this is going to go on for a while, right?” I love it.

[00:26:49] AC: So are there times or tricks you might have picked up on that you've noticed when people are either especially in a room or when they seem to have that initial spark that they want to leave the room? Are there ways that people might identify that in themselves that you've seen that are somewhat common?

[00:27:05] NC: Probably. I would say this feeling around feeling stuck is probably pretty consistent when we're on the verge of a transition, or in it. Because oftentimes, I think that I've seen with many of my clients, it is confusing when on paper, what you have, is seems quite nice. And you can feel like ungrateful almost when there's the side of you that just doesn't feel totally satisfied or happy with something that maybe looks good on paper. And then we start to compare ourselves to other people's situations, which are not our situations, and we get in kind of this head game of, “Well, I should be happy.” And so I find that that creates a lot of confusion. And when we're feeling super confused, it can cause us to be a bit stagnant, feeling stuck, and cause us to stay sort of in this space where we shuffle for quite some time. We deliberate for quite some time. Sometimes endlessly, we deliberate. 

I always think back my poor coach. When I went through my own coach training, I had a peer coach. Rose, if you're listening. And then also, Lynette. If either of them are listening, I just hope you're having a good laugh. I know I don't need to apologize because they wouldn't accept the apology, because that's just how it was. But man, I don't think I've changed the subject matter of 12 different sessions for them. Like it was always the same thing. I was always contemplating the same question. And even when they may have thought or even I may have thought that I made a little bit of headway or traction in my decision, I'd still come back to the next session, “Well, what do you want to work on?” Should I stay in my job? Or should I leave my job? Explore another angle of it.

That though to me seems so typical. Some of us can move through it faster than me. I think that took a long time. But many of us can't. And I would say, Alex, that seems to be an easy common denominator to identify. And also, we can easily lose our confidence too. I think many of us, almost the higher we've climbed in a corporate role, the easier it is to lack confidence trying something new, because now we've gotten accustomed to a title. We've gotten accustomed to identifying with a company or a job to define who we are in the world, as opposed to being really comfortable with simply who we are in the world no matter what we're doing. And it's almost like the larger the title is, the less likely your ego is going to allow you to start over. And that can be a conundrum, because you also probably have some of the most valuable experience to be able to do something new with others or independently. 

And yet, that is a platinum chain that ties many of my clients up. Because in order to make it especially as an entrepreneur, you have to be willing to go back to kindergarten in your career. You have to be willing to do that and knowing that if I do that, I'm a fast learner, I'm going to graduate high school like in a couple years, because I have the experience to accelerate myself from kindergarten to senior year. 

But not everyone has the ability to take a few steps back in ego. I don't think it's taking a step back in career. It's taking a few – it's dialing your ego down a little bit to recognize that you don't know it all. And that's pretty awesome that you don't know at all, because accepting that is what's going to make you kill it. And again, it's a big separator between I think those who make it and don't. Those who are okay not knowing at all and okay with going back to grade school in their career will more easily push through challenges they encounter, because they're not expecting to know it all. Those who expect to know it all because of their past titles, their self-fate, will be very challenged by that. So, confusion, lack of confidence, this feeling of stuck, is what I see.

[00:31:41] AC: That reminds me so much of what you said earlier on about finding the answer so often within yourself, because we think of those things as like that job title, that salary, the years you're going to have to spend to like retraining or imagined. Usually, it's imagined, it's going to be like some 10-year project where it's like, you're saying, you have the ability to accelerate this a lot faster now. But we imagine these things I think so often internally as an external force. This job is holding me in there. This salary is holding me in there. But of course, the way you're describing it now is a good illustration of exactly what it really is. We're holding ourselves to it. We're holding ourselves there and believing this is necessary. This has to have happened, or else maybe what I did before doesn't mean something or I will lose whatever current platinum handcuff I have.

[00:32:27] NC: Yeah, and nothing can hold us back really without us allowing it to. And that is a tough pill to swallow when you're first swallowing it. Really. I think at times in my life, I've been actually quite defensive when it comes to my accountability in situations that I hate. It's like, “But I hate this. Why would I have anything to do with it?” And it's like, well, until I did accept my part in it and the role I played in the circumstance, it could have never changed, it could have never changed. And putting things outside of ourselves is really a way to rationalize our way through why it's happening. It's a way to just excuse why we're not doing anything. And it's almost like a numbing mechanism. 

I think I'm not a psychologist. Of course, I'm speaking from perspective here, in terms of what I personally have experienced and what I witnessed in others. It does seem though, that when we put things outside of ourselves, it makes it that much easier not to feel it. Not to feel the pain of what it is we don't like. So, blame it on someone else. Blame it on the job. Blame it on the boss. Blame it on the bills. Blame it on the fact that you have kids and you've got a family to support. All of that stuff is valid, and there is a way to work through all of it, to work through all of it if you choose to. Yeah, “I got to get present though.” You've got to get super present in order to make any choices that are going to change anything.

[00:34:02] AC: I've hit that roadblock personally a few times and then had that realization of like, “Oh, right. I'm the one doing this.” And even now, even hearing you describe this now, and I don't have a specific situation I'm even going through now. I still feel that that painful pill swallow as we're discussing this life.

[00:34:20] NC: It can be better. 

[00:34:21] CA: Yes.

[00:34:22] NC: But oh so sweet when it gets in. 

[00:34:28] CA: It’s just the beginning. 

[00:34:30] NC: Then you’re down the matrix. 

[00:34:32] CA: Yes. Then you’re down the matrix, yeah.

[00:34:34] AC: It’s like the opposite of dessert. It doesn't taste good, but it does. It does well once you have it.

[00:34:40] NC: Exactly.

[00:34:41] CA: I think one of those like green juices

[00:34:44] NC: Or taking drugs people, just making sure. Really quickly though, I think it is a rude awakening and also the ultimate freedom. It's the one in the same when you realize that the common denominator in everything you complain about is you.

[00:35:04] CA: Yes. Oh, it’s so hard. And so many people refuse to do that. I've refused to do that so many times in the past because it’s like, “Oh, no. It can’t be. I’m an intelligent, caring person. How can I possibly be the common denominator for all these things that are making me miserable?”

[00:35:30] NC: Exactly. It really is laughable. Yeah. How could I be creating the very things I bitch about? And it's like, “Yeah, when you solve that riddle, that's when the doors really blow open. That is when things start to change.” And it does. It takes a lot of self-assessment and getting really honest with yourself.

[00:35:54] CA: Humility. Not worry about what people are going to think. Because that's the other component, is like, “I have worked 20 years to be at this level with this title with this money and do these things. And if I leave, first of all, it's scary. And I have to go back to kindergarten, and what are people going to think? People are still expecting me to be the VP of product. People are still expecting me to whatever, be the head of sales and marketing? Be the senior engineer. And I'm out there mountain biking and touring the world with mountain bikes?”

[00:36:32] NC: Yeah. It's so funny you bring that up, Cristina, because I was just having a conversation earlier today with someone. And he too had mentioned this, “What are others going to think?” And this was not a coaching session. We were just dialoguing. And it dawned on me because I've, of course, experienced that too. I think many of us do. That's a really normal question. What do others think? Or what are they going to think? And where I come down to with that is, “You know what? It's highly unlikely that anyone is thinking about you at all, because they are too busy thinking about themselves.” So, like, take the pressure off. Not a lot of people are sitting around questioning what Nina's doing right now. They don't have time for that. And that's very freeing to me. 

And secondly, even if they were thinking about what I was doing, or what Cristina was doing, or what Alex was doing, how do we know that they're not like kick ass? Like, “She's like mountain biking right now? Like, how do I learn to like, build a life where I can do that?” Or, “They're creating that podcast, and have created all these episodes? And all these people are listening to it? How did they do that? I want to do that.” 

But yet our mind so often go to the self-deprecating stuff, when the possibilities are also that they might not be thinking about you at all, which I think is the most likely. And I hate to say it, here I am again. This is how I motivate people by basically demotivating you.

[00:38:23] CA: Nobody cares about you. So just go back to the hallway. 

[00:38:31] NC: Yeah, but the funny thing is, and this is the yin and yang of all things, there is so much liberation in that. 

[00:38:36] CA: Yes, there is. 

[00:38:37] NC: That's what motivates me. It's like I kind of love – I remember the first blog articles I wrote. The more I thought about people reading it, the less inclined I was to hit publish. The more I thought to myself, “Maybe no one will read it. Maybe I'm the only one who will read it,” the more inclined I was to hit publish. And then I think that evolves where, yeah, then you're more open to people reading it. And ultimately, I think that's a healthy place to be, to be really okay and maybe even happy with and excited about people thinking about you. And that's a healthy evolution. It doesn't always start there, though. And sometimes just coming off that pedestal, letting that pressure release a little bit is exactly what is useful to get started in anything meaningful. 

Again, it's like if you're sitting around thinking about others thinking about you as much as you are, they're probably doing the same thing, which means they're not thinking about you. The same thing you’re not thinking about them, because you're thinking about you.

[00:39:47] AC: The other interesting thing, let's say you get past the – Let's say somebody is actually thinking about you. Let's say that it isn't something positive. Let's say that that negative thought that they have is not just coming from jealousy, which almost inevitably would be if it is some weird negative thing coming out. Let's say you've gotten through all of those doors, and this person is thinking something actually negative about you. Does it actually change what you want to do? I mean, would you be happy with yourself or changing what you've done because of that person's opinion? Even if you managed to get through the 99% probability that they're not even thinking about you, and the 1% probability that that's not a bad thing, is it worth to actually change your opinion? Does it actually change what you need to do? 

[00:40:30] NC: Yeah. That's a good question. And I think for some people it does. I mean, I could be off here, but I think some people are so stifled by what others think. And I feel like I've been there so stifled by what others think that it limits us from taking steps that we otherwise would have if we got off that track. I've mentioned a book title before. I read the book, I liked the book, but if you never read the book, the title alone is incredible. All you have to do is listen and remind yourself of that title. And it's the book The Courage to be Disliked. I just love even – Like the more courage we have to be disliked, likely, the more amazing things we're going to do. Because if we're really going to, back to your theme, if we're going to uncover the human, if we're going to show up fully authentically, then we may want to be prepared for not being everyone's person. Because how can we be? 

And so it's almost like the more you're showing up as yourself authentically, the less likely it is for you to be liked by everyone. And so have that courage. Because what it will do though, when you show up as yourself, it will enhance the relationships that those you do attract, because you can be sure that those who you are connecting with, you're really resonating with and they're resonating with you. And that creates the opportunity for more meaningful partnerships, business relationships, friendships, intimate relationships, all of that, to be formed, as opposed to walking around with this mask on because you're trying to be liked.

[00:42:14] AC: To clarify, I've definitely fallen to want people to like me and not to want to be disliked. I don't say that's not an important thing. It's just that I'm starting to realize even internally, if I actually question that all the way down, it wouldn't do me much good to have listened to the voices that are saying that might have even gotten to that point of negativity. And to your point, you get down to that point where you're responding from yourself. You fixed the one relationship that's going to matter, the one relationship you're going to have to live with for your entire lifespan, which is the one with yourself, you're going to hear and be living with you and living with your approval or disapproval forever.

[00:42:49] NC: Yeah, you're so right, Alex, that if you don't let it hinder you, it wouldn't. It's not even probably. It wouldn't matter. Things will always affect you, though, if it matters to you. If things matter to you, then it begins to matter to others, because you're creating your life at every moment. And we forget that. We forget our own empowerment in every moment because we're asleep to the present moment. We let the past dictate our futures. We're not awake to present time. But in those moments where we can get really present and, yeah, we can't always be in the state. Sometimes we are just kind of an autopilot. But when we really can become aware, then yeah, different things happen. I think I kind of just lost track of where I was going. It just poofs!

[00:43:43] CA: You were in the moment. You were embracing the moment.

[00:43:46] NC: And this is what happens when you're in the moment. You just stop making sense, and that’s a good thing too, okay?

[00:43:53] CA: Demonstration of being in the moment and not letting the past. 

[00:43:57] NC: Thank you, Cristina. Thank you for offering that nice cushy fall right there.

[00:44:05] CA: I’ve learned from the best.

[00:44:09] NC: Oh, I just love Cristina.

[00:44:13] AC: I think it's also important just to remember that, of course, we're social creatures, and it's natural for us to spend time thinking about what other people will think. It's just also worthwhile to dive in and say what that will mean to us long term and what we think of us. And I love that just being able to get to the point of losing it, losing yourself, losing what everything that felt so important because you are now reacting just from your own place, from your own human place.

[00:44:39] NC: Yeah, true. And honestly, from what I've seen unfold with some of the decisions I've made in the last seven years, really having experience with being very fearful of what people were going to think of me just by even switching jobs, which is like, “Who cares? Who cares when someone switches a job?” Like it’s, “Really?” But yeah, you get obsessive in your head. And what I found is some of the people who I thought would be most critical became my biggest advocates. It was actually the opposite. They were the ones recommending me. They were the ones cheering me on. Not in every case. Many cases, though. I have many cases where I just looked back and was in shock at some of the people who were calling me to engage my services as an executive coach or as a transition coach. And I would have never known if I allowed that very normal fear to hold me back. And it easily could have. It easily could have. And in the past, I have allowed fears like that to hold me back. And I'll never know. I'll actually never know what was on the other side of not doing that. I have the luxury in this case of knowing what was on the other side though.

[00:45:54] CA: I've experienced a lot of increasing confidence when you finally make that step and you stop molding and changing and masking and just doing all sorts of contortionist ways to be liked and be accepted, because you're in a situation where you're not fully being accepted as you. And so you have to pick and choose which parts of me do I show when. And it becomes exhausting. And then when you finally decide, “This is enough, because the one person I'm letting down is myself.” And it's just too much. It’s draining. I want to be able to be myself and be accepted for myself. And this is not the room. It's freeing. And then the confidence comes back.

[00:46:39] NC: Yeah, because back to your story earlier of how easy it is to write a post that you've actually experienced, it's effortless to be yourself. If you don't mind me asking, Cristina, what have you noticed in your world in terms of who you surround yourself with as you've stepped more into your authenticity?

[00:47:03] CA: I have found authentic people showing up, honestly. It's like being authentic has given permission to others to be authentic as well, I find. I mean, we've made some connections, new connections that have reached out just because we're out there. And they're immediate value-based connections as in because they know what we stand for and we know what they stand for. There's that underlying understanding that we're on the same side of a lot of things we believe, for us is a lot, for me, it's a lot of treating people like humans and understanding what that looks like. And so now we can talk about a partnership. We can talk about how we help each other. We can just connect. I found that it has allowed a whole new world of connections to step up and step forward. 

[00:48:01] NC: Yeah. What came to mind as you said that is that analogy that you brought up earlier. It's like instead of knocking on a door that's closed and then knocking harder and ringing the doorbell and like, “Why aren’t they answering?” It’s like there are lots of doors that are open already, like inviting you in if you just kind of, again, stop, take a pause, take the time, look around, and you'll find that these doors are wide open. They're like waiting for you just as you are over there. So cool.

[00:48:40] CA: I recommend it. It's scary. But I would definitely recommend it. Otherwise, you're wasting time.

[00:48:47] AC: It gets easier with practice though. And like you're saying, you swallow that pill and like the huge freedom on the other side of that, the huge contrast of what feels like the most painful choice, resulting in what feels like some of the largest freedom is pretty incredible. There's just kind of a whiplash almost in that poll.

[00:49:06] NC: Yeah. It is so true. It's funny, and this is back to my motivational demotivation. Demotivation motivators, I guess what you call me at this podcast. Sounds like that. But again, it gets back to, I guess, the yin and yang of what's freeing. Oftentimes, pain and joy are just so closely related. If you think about it, it's like with deep pain comes great liberation, because that's when you surrender. Your ego is actually the weakest. The small self-ego is the weakest. And so you finally just surrender and you let the world work with you a little bit instead of you trying to control it all the time. But one of the things that often comes up, and I say this to students often that come through coach training, but this organization that I work with part of the time, IPEC, I train for them nine weekends a month. I'm sorry, a year. 

[00:50:06] CA: Oh my gosh! You have such time in your discovery.

[00:50:11] NC: Once again, I've lost track. Yeah, nine weekends a year. Their mission is to raise the consciousness of the world one person at a time. That's IPEC’s mission. And we train coaches to do that. And also so that they can get their ICF credential so they can be great coaches out in the world. As we gain consciousness, though, this concept of gaining consciousness, I think many people depict that as being like this experience where suddenly you're going to be in this like bright light and the angels are going to start singing and the – 

[00:50:53] NC: Yeah, exactly. It’s this almost like heavenly experience. And I think there's this other side to it that's kind of like this – Pardon my French, this like, holy shit moment, where it's like, “Oh my gosh! I'm letting a lot of this stuff happen on my watch. And now that I have seen it, it's hard for me to unsee.” So there is a responsibility that comes with what you see, who you've allowed, what you've allowed to take place in your life, what the situations you find yourself in, and also your responsibility in it. We're all responsible. So this isn't to say that, at times, we truly aren't victims in life. But until we take ownership of what we can, where we are empowered, it's hard to make much of any change. 

So I often like to say welcome to consciousness, may the force be with you, because it's not always so easy. It's not always going to be this glowing experience. Sometimes being enlightened, once again, is a challenge. And that challenge is what gives you this beautiful thing that you mentioned earlier, Cristina, humility, that enables you to absorb more knowledge, more opportunity, more possibility. Without a little humility, you're blocked sometimes from that. It can be a humbling experience to recognize to gain consciousness of what's actually happening in your life, as opposed to being in a very common numbing mechanism, which is just kind of pretending that it's not happening and everything's okay. 

[00:52:35] CA: You have a choice.

[00:52:37] NC: Yeah. Sometimes getting awake means I actually see what's happening and I'm not okay with it. Not okay with it. And that's what I have to address here. And that's what's going to stop me walking through another door that looks just like the other one, or knocking on a door that doesn't want to let me in. It all comes back to the hallway, Alex, okay?

[00:52:58] CA: It’s the hallway, and the matrix. It’s very much like the matrix. It’s like you swallow the pill, and once you see the matrix, you're like, “Oh, wait, I can't unsee that.”

[00:53:09] AC: Better and worse, through your point. You can have those moments where you’re like, “Oh, no. Oh, I see what's going on. Oh, I've trapped myself again. Oh!” That's freedom. That’s painful freedom, but it's freedom.

[00:53:21] CA: It’s freedom. 

[00:53:23] NC: Yeah. I mean, it's like how can you ever untie yourself if you don't realize you're tied in the first place? So that awareness has to come? And yeah, my dad used to always say to me, sometimes the elevator has to go down before it goes up. And that kind of remembrance of how things actually work I think keeps us more open, maybe even more peaceful with some of life's inevitable challenges. And do challenges even have to be all that painful? We know that there's that old saying, another IPEC principle that comes from the Institute of Professional Excellence in Coaching, pain is inevitable. 

Suffering is optional. Pain does exist in the world. We can't pretend like we're going to transition or start a new job or do a new endeavor and not encounter some pain. Life is not always meant to be easy. And I don't know why we run around thinking that we have to think that way, that we have to be up and positive all the time. When, truthfully, I think true happiness comes from accepting all emotion, including the fact that there are times when we're not feeling all that up. And acceptance of that is what brings peace. And I don't know about you, but peace I generally associate with life satisfaction.

[00:54:52] AC: I would like to see that worked into the building metaphor you've got going on with doors and hallways and elevators. That would be great.

[00:55:01] CA: Peace is when the chair shows up.

[00:55:05] NC: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:55:08] CA: And you get comfortable in the hallway. 

[00:55:09] NC: Maybe it comes with an ottoman. 

[00:55:13] CA: Yes. It’s an ottoman. Yeah. It's a recliner with a massage function, a glass of wine next to you. 

[00:55:21] NC: Now we're getting into bliss. Officially moved from peace to bliss.

[00:55:28] CA: Or my Gremlin cave, depending on which level of energy we are in.

[00:55:33] NC: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But how cool is that to recognize? Like getting back to transitions, anytime we transition in life? How cool is it to recognize that usually very close on the other side of pain is like ultimate liberation? And until we experienced that, it's so hard. It's so hard to be happy. Another great trainer who I had long ago, his name is Keith Miller. If he's listening, he's in L.A. he's also a coach. He came up with this analogy about a pendulum and how we all are – Our emotions kind of move like a pendulum does. And there're painful ones on one side, and there's joyful ones on the other side. And we can only then experience joy on one side to the extent that we allow the pendulum to swing into pain. The pendulum cannot create its momentum to get to joy if we're shutting the faucet off of pain. 

And if we reduce the momentum of how that pendulum swings, we just kind of hover in the center. We never experienced much of either of them. So it's kind of just really opening up that,  yeah, when we're confused when we're feeling stuck, oftentimes, that might be because we're not allowing the painful emotions to flow. We're keeping them stuck. We've shut the faucet off of what's “bad”, or “negative”, “Oh, that would be me showing up frustrated. That would make me look like I'm not a positive person. Maybe people won't like me if I'm not showing up positive all the time, instead of, “Yeah, no, I'm pretty frustrated right now.” And instead of blaming others for my frustration, I'm going to accept that that frustration belongs to me and I'm going to get curious about it. What is causing my frustration? Because I, like any other human being, have the right to experience a very normal human emotion and I'm going to allow myself to experience it. I'm not going to pretend like I don't. I'm going to experience it. 

[00:57:49] CA: The frustration comes out. 

[00:57:50] NC: Yeah. Then the frustration comes out, Cristina.

[00:57:54] CA: The frustration comes out, because it spills in like little bits and pieces.

[00:57:59] NC: Yep. Yeah, you think you're blocking it. You think you're blocking it too, but it still comes out at the least desirable times.

[00:58:09] AC: A word that keeps coming back, and you mentioned it, is accepting it, acceptance. It's really accepting that I feel frustrated. Accepting that I might be the one holding myself back. Accepting that I find this situation painful. But allowing yourself to have that moment where you have the human experience to really address like, “This is happening to me. I'm not going to have a toxic positivity mindset of like just grin and keep going.” But really accepting like, “This is how this feels to me and I've got to move forward with knowing this is where I'm at,” and then allowing that and accepting that to be.

[00:58:40] NC: Yeah. This term is new to me, and yet I love it. In a sense, this idea of toxic positivity is the opposite of – Also, there's nothing wrong with positivity. Positivity is an amazing thing. And there is such thing as genuine positivity. And genuine positivity does generate more positivity. It is an upward spiral. So this is not a less dampen positivity. Genuine positivity is the beautiful thing. But many of us are trying harder to be more positive than we actually feel because of our need to be liked, which stems from us being overly concerned about what other people think. That is a phrase that I'm growing to like.

[00:59:27] CA: Yeah, recently I learned about that too.

[00:59:30] AC: Yeah. I was going to say, really, I'm stuck now on the pendulum metaphor. You had so many good metaphors here. I'm just enjoying them. It feels like just putting a wall up on that one side of the pendulum where you can't swing past a certain point at which point you've lost all your momentum to swing past and the other way.

[00:59:45] NC: Yeah, well, now we've added a wall, okay? So let’s elaborate on this wall. I mean, what happens when that pendulum rubs up against the wall? Just now you're stuck in frustration. 

[00:59:57] CA: Now you’re stuck. Yes. 

[00:59:59] NC: The definition of stuck. Yeah. Gosh! The house, guys. I’m sensing, we’ve got to build some program without a house.

[01:00:09] CA: We do. We have all the rooms and we figured out what needs to be in it.

[01:00:12] NC: We’ve got rooms. We've got hallways. We've got walls, pendulums. 

[01:00:18] AC: Pretty sure either the lobby or the basement has some very either beautiful or sinister looking pendulum, and I'm not sure which way we're going on it, but it's there.

[01:00:27] NC: It’s in a cuckoo clock. The pendulum is in a cuckoo clock, “Cuckoo, cuckoo.” There's a cellar. There’s a cellar to your stall. Oh, it’s all there. 

[01:00:40] CA: Oh, there’s a cellar. There's wine with a very comfy chair. So there’s a cellar.

[01:00:43] NC: Of course. Nina's cellar has a lot of good wine. I wouldn’t mine hanging out in your cellar. My has like pickled onions.

[01:00:51] CA: And we're back to the pickles too. 

[01:00:53] NC: Yeah, we’re back to a pickle. Exactly. Yeah, cellar has a lot of pickles, a lot of pickled items. Pickled beets, pickled green beans, which I actually love pickled green beans. I don't know if you've ever had them. They're pretty good. 

[01:01:12] CA: I’ve not. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. 

[01:01:15] NC: Where are you going to take it from here, Alex?

[01:01:20] AC: Now I want to explore this house.

[01:01:22] CA: Yeah. You had me at pickled beans? Well, thank you, Nina. This was a wonderful conversation. We've built a house. We have wine, pickled beans, hallways, pendulums, and lots and lots of wonderful insights.

[01:01:38] AC: Yeah, thank you for sharing these great ideas and great visualizations for transitions, which I can't imagine anybody isn't in somewhat of a transition currently, especially just with the state of the outside world, much less everything we're trying to do in our internal lives.

[01:01:55] NC: Yeah, that's a great point. I think if we all stop and think about it, we're always in transition. And some of those transitions are bigger than others. And that's kind of what I often address, those bigger ones. So nice to be here, though, you too. So fun to be here. And I have been also just kind of on the sidelines, just really cheering you guys on and of what you're building here, and listening to the different episodes of who you're bringing on, and how many of them there are. I remember listening to the first few and now seeing how many of them there are. And that is so encouraging. I think we all have to stop and remember that all of us who are out there making things happen. If anyone is thinking anything, quite honestly, it's usually, “Wow! Now there's something that maybe I could do.” Or maybe even if it's not the exact same thing, maybe I could do something similar with an idea that I have just like Cristina and Alex did it. 

So, I think, and actually someone said this to me this morning, my brother did actually that the true heroes of the world are those who are out there exploring ideas that could potentially fail and they keep going with it. Those are the true inspirations and heroes of the world that definitely in this point of time of where we are in history we could all stand to see more of. Just people who inspire us, people who get out there and they do things and attached to the outcome just doing it. So, it's an honor to be here. That's a long winded as usual way of me saying it's an honor to be here.

[01:03:39] CA: Well, thank you. One of the things that I've noticed, the type of people that I find we are attracting as we go through this journey is those people. Like I find that people who inspire us by what they're doing and their courage and just being out there and going for it and keep going, I find that they just keep popping up all around us. I mean, it's that IPEC principle of energy attracts like energy.

[01:04:05] AC: And not start, just to circle it back. But it's very fun to meet you, Nina. It’s very fun to meet – I really love people who are invested not only in their own self-improvement, but love helping people find their way through that. And it's really fascinating to get to talk to you and talk about transitions and how you envision these things and the ways you're helping people. This is why it's so much fun to do this.

[01:04:27] NC: Thanks so much, Alex. Now I knew Cristina when I listened to podcast. But now when I listen to future episodes, I'll be like, “I know Alex too. He's like my pal.

[01:04:40] CA: Two questions for you, Nina, to close this off. One is what does authenticity mean to you?

[01:04:47] NC: Authenticity to me just connects directly with the truth, and your truth. I think we've observed most definitely in the last several months, as many have us have been turning on the news more, as we spend more time at home, that there are so many different versions of the story. And that crystallizes for me even more that the thing that matters the most is your truth. And how are you going to express your truth? And when you do, when you are aligned with your truth, that is authenticity. And it doesn't have to be overthought. Although sometimes it takes a lot of thinking to finally get there. And once found, again, it's once you see it, you can't unsee it. And you'll know the feeling when you're not expressing your truth. You'll feel it in your body. And things just roll with ease when we are expressing our truth, when things are generally effortless, even things that require a lot of effort feel effortless, chances are you're living authentically.

[01:06:03] AC: That's a great answer.

[01:06:03] CA: Beautiful. And then how can people find you?

[01:06:07] NC: So I would say for now, the best way is to check out my master class. If anyone who's listening is experiencing major life or career transition, I do have a free 90-minute master class. And it will give you some great just initial steps to gain some confidence and clarity that gets you more connected with that authenticity and that truth as opposed to constantly seeking outside of yourself. You may think that you need help with your resume, you may think that you need help with your interview skills, and the truth is, is maybe what would be a really good use of your time is to take 90-minutes and explore yourself. You can find that free master class at paveyourway.com/masterclass.

[01:06:59] CA: And we'll include those in the show notes as well. 

[01:07:01] NC: Cool.

[01:07:02] CA: Yes.

[01:07:03] AC: Thank you so much for joining, Nina. And thank you everybody for listening. This has been a great conversation.

[01:07:08] CA: Thank you. 

[01:07:10] NC: Thanks, guys. 

[01:07:12] CA: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

[01:07:15] AC: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

[01:07:21] CA: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

[01:07:29] AC: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas or questions. You can reach us at podcast wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

[01:07:47] CA: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always uncover the human.