Embracing Authenticity and Uncertainty for Real Change with Amy Birks

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hello. I think it's Wednesday and we release on Wednesdays. This has to be a first – 

Alex Cullimore: We actually did a Wednesday podcast. It's been the first, at least in all of 2023. 

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely. Probably, most of 2022 as well. 

Alex Cullimore: We just had a conversation with Amy Birks, who is a strategist, life coach, all kinds of, honestly, every type of career. But really fascinating conversation about the philosophies of life and how being more human ends up – are giving us the freedom back that we all are looking for and giving us the ability to change the world in a way that we're looking for, rather than some of the overwhelm that we tend to feel otherwise. It's fascinating philosophy and just really interesting conversation. She's thought a lot about this and there's so much depth to it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, definitely. It's not shocking to us at all, but always validating and nice to hear actual success stories of people realizing that the more human they are and the more human they show up for other people and allow them to be human, the more successful they are financially and in life. It's quite amazing. 

Alex Cullimore: Having tried every other method, humanity is finally coming back to its roots. 

Cristina Amigoni: I know. And still being resisted. I mean, we're still trying to take the humans out of all business decisions and workplaces. We're not quite learning that, but some people are, which gives us hope for the rest of humanity. 

Alex Cullimore: It's funny how many of these conversations we end up quoting ancient philosophies, which have been around for 2,000 years and we're finally getting back to uncovering them. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Well, it makes for interesting conversations and it makes for validation and a little bit of confidence to keep going and knowing that this is the way. The Mandalorian also agrees, this is the way. 

Alex Cullimore: Just the process, or at least the Mandalorian. That'll be our new infographic. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Go forth and prosper. Let's put in a little Star Trek with the Mandalorian. One, I think, will get along. Would they actually be able to communicate? 

Alex Cullimore: I think that's an entirely – This is starting to sound like a Friday conversation with us laughing happening and become here. But that's an entirely different podcast episode. The Mandalorian and Star Trek, will they get along? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, we'll save that one. 

Alex Cullimore: Uncover the human. Let's talk about aliens. 

Cristina Amigoni: We'll save that one. Well, enjoy. 

Alex Cullimore: Please, enjoy. 

[INTRODUCTION] 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that’s with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens. 

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. 

HOSTS: Let's dive in. 

Authenticity means freedom. 

Authenticity means going with your gut. 

Authenticity is bringing a 100% of yourself. Not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you. 

Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself. 

It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true. 

Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be. 

It's transparency, relatability, no frills, no makeup, just being. 

[INTERVIEW] 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human state. Cristina and I are joined by our guest, Amy Birks. Welcome to the podcast, Amy. 

Amy Birks: Hello. I'm so happy to be here with you guys. Very excited about this conversation. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hi, Amy. Welcome. 

Alex Cullimore: Amy, first, to give people a little background. Tell us your story. What got you where you are? 

Amy Birks: Oh my. It feels such a simple question. That's my friend Bob will call it simply complex. I mean, if we're talking career, then I can backtrack through there. If we're talking about the human in me, which involves some of the career stuff, I can talk about that, too, but we'll keep it simple and just go with work. I am now a strategist and I help purpose-driven brands to scale without sacrificing the things that really matter. The way that I got here was by way of a very hazard career that probably started, if I'm being really honest, back when I was five-years-old. The kids in the neighborhood wanted to build a lemonade stand, and I knew all the exact ways that we were going to do it. 

We're going to like, we're going to use this crystal light. This is where we're going to set it up. This is what the signs would look like. This is how we're going to offer it. This is what we're going to charge, all those things. It was back then that I think the seeds of what I call my GPS brain were being sown. I've always really been able to see in maps and understand the easiest, most efficient and fun way to get to a result. That and my innate deep, deep curiosity took me on this circuitous route through my career and from jobs in retail and fine dining and in banking and in selling cars and non-profits and doing all these really random things, that at the time I used to beat myself up about, because I felt like, “Oh, I'm really inconsistent. Why can't I just pick a job in a industry and stay there? What's the deal?” 

I think at heart, I really was hoping to find a company that would see my value and would then invest in me and help me become what I thought I needed to become, as far as a successful human is concerned. I found that, finally, in my job in finance, or one of my jobs in finance and ended up moving up through the ranks and was working on enterprise projects in the Fortune 25 bank, doing project management and strategic planning. It just like, it still wasn't enough. I was like, “Why do I have to keep filling out these PTO requests? Why is my time not my own? I have this enviable job and why does it not feel enough and making a ton of money? I get to be remote when before it was a thing that everybody could do.” 

It became untenable. It just became this scenario where I was like, “All right, I just can't really see doing this anymore.” I started consulting. Then that became its own circuitous path, because I originally thought I had no really marketable skills. I couldn't look back at my career with kindness to myself and say like, “Wow, look at all these things that I can do.” I thought, “Oh, I'm just going to be a life coach.” And so, I went and got a certification and was like, that's going to make me credible. Now I'm going to go start this business. 

Then I promptly realized that I had zero understanding of what I was going to do to build the business and grow it. I spent a year spinning my wheels, trying to figure that out. Then was at a retreat with some work colleagues, some other entrepreneurs. One of them was like, I'm trying to figure out how to get this retreat built and sold. I just like, I can't get in my own way. I don't know what to do. I was like, well, let's talk about it. Let's figure it out. 

In 12 minutes, I had helped her map out the whole strategy for launching the thing. Everybody in the room was like, “What just happened?” I was like, “What? I just used my GPS brain. I saw the map and then we figured it out. That’s like, you guys can all do that, right?” They're like, “No, we can't.” I was like, “You don't see in maps, too?” They're like, “Nobody does. Nobody's brain works like that. Are you kidding?” I was like, “What? I thought everybody could do this.” I had no idea that that was a marketable skill. 

Then it suddenly dawned on me, and they were like, “You should be helping business owners with their businesses.” I was like, “Oh, I guess that does make sense.” I've had the business for 10 years that that conversation happened just about nine years ago. Now, here I am and thriving and loving what I do. The people that I work with are just so brilliant and doing such wonderful things in the world. The fact that I get to help them scale more easily and simply means that they're making a bigger impact in the world and that couldn't make me happier. That's the very long, simply complex story of how I got here. 

Alex Cullimore: That is awesome. I thought it was funny how much RNA gifts, the things that we just default to become invisible to us over time. We don't really even think of them. We don't see them. We don't notice them, until somebody points that out. What gave you the confidence to go jump in on that being a gift and what you could do with it? 

Amy Birks: Well, I think just exactly what you just said, right? I think that we're blind to our gifts as a default. I think our humanity, and I think that the way that are – especially, I think in North America, the way that our culture is set up is to be humble and don't be too big, or too loud. Don't brag. Don't think too much of yourself, all of that. For women, especially, I will also say. 

I think that just being a part of who I was, I couldn't see it, until suddenly, I could see it. Then I couldn't unsee it. I was like, “Oh, right.” Really, because it had never occurred to me, because it was so easy for me, like this idea that somebody would tell me that they want to build up the first coffee shop on the moon. I'd be like, “Let's do that. I know exactly how and we’re going to start here. Yes.” Because it came so easily to me, I assumed that everybody else could do it. Because there's nothing really special about me, because I'm not that special. 

What's interesting is that the last 10 years having my business, number one, it gave me the opportunity to see that and then not be able to unsee it anymore. Then that peaked a whole new opportunity for me to see myself differently. That has been this amazing trajectory to be on. Because now I sit here 10 years later, and I'm like, “I am effing awesome. I can do all this stuff. This career that I had was so perfectly aligned to put me where I am right now, and to help me serve my clients in the ways that I do. I'm a great mom.” I have no problem talking about how great I am now. I feel no shame in that anymore. 

I think it's easier now for me to be able to see potential in myself, and to feel it's such a generous gift to then share it when I see it in others, because I know how easy it is for us to not want to allow ourselves to see that in ourselves. Yeah. I think it was exactly as you said, right? Somebody piqued that potential for me, pointed it out, they shine a spotlight on it. I was like, “Oh, this was a blind spot. I didn't even know that was there. Now that it's there, it's like, “Holy, wow.” The floodgates are open and now I see all the potential. Yeah, great question. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great story for sure. What do you think shifted in you to going from the cultural shame, especially on women to stay small, don’t brag, all these things to, “Yeah, I'm awesome. Check what I get to do”? 

Amy Birks: What shifted. That's such a great question. I love this conversation, because the people that I'm closest to, this is the stuff that we talk about a lot. I think we talked about this some, too, the last time we connected about how fascinating humans are to me. Oh, my gosh. It's just fascinating what we do and the stories that we agree to within ourselves and as a society and as a collective humanity. 

I think a lot of things shifted within me. It's been incremental. I would say that I could probably backtrack my personal growth journey to when I was starting, when I was like, I don't know, 20, 21, maybe. My cousin, who I was visiting in Denver before I decided to move to Denver, she gave me Way of the Peaceful Warrior to read. She's like, “You should just check this out.” She really stewarded my spiritual awakening. It's been this incremental journey that has had – I feel like, if it was a video game, right? I was just cruising along, cruising along and picking things up, finding a coin here or there, like Super Mario Brothers, and then certain things would happen, or have happened, especially over the last five years or so, probably since I have my business, where I'll hit a power up and then I'm like, “Zoom. Oh, wow. I have this amazing insight. Now I see things in a whole new way again.” 

I would say that that realization about my business was probably one of them feeling empowered enough to start a business to begin with and to lead my job, I think was another one. I think, because I'm so insanely curious, that has just led me down all these roads. What's really also interesting, I think, is that along the way, there's been all this self-doubt. I still have it. I know I'm awesome and I can finally really, deeply connect to the idea that I like myself and that I love myself and that's a new thing for me. There are still moments where I'm like, “I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, or I don't have any idea what's going on, or what I'm doing.” 

Over time, that was much more prevalent. That was much more in the way. I think that my curiosity and my willingness to just move in the face of fear, that's been the difference maker, like those two things, like leaning on my curiosity and my willingness to take risks, and to just say like, “Okay. I mean, it's scary, but I'm going to do it anyway.” The thing that's funny that I was trying to say before is that I can remember being the me that was me 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, and feeling like, I would look back on the me that was me prior to that and feel like, “She was so dumb, or she didn't take chances, or she was too scared, or she didn't –” All this story that I created about myself and who I used to be. 

Where I sit now, what's really lovely is that I can look back and go like, “Wow. I was so unkind to myself then. Oh, my gosh. Look at all the things that I was willing to do. Look at all the risks that I was willing to take that I thought were nothing. I'm just going to go and raise $10,000 for cancer and run a marathon.” I've never run before in my life. I'm like, Ah, I’m going to become a triathlete. Let me try that out. I'm going to go try this flying trapeze thing and let me just see what that looks like. I'm going to go at 44, get into gymnastics again, even though I haven't done it since I was seven. Why not?” 

At the time, these things never felt interesting, monumental. Let me put my six-figure a year cushy job, Fortune 25, and do this thing that is a complete unknown. My now ex-husband was like, “What are you thinking? This is the worst idea ever.” At the time, I was like, I'm just going to do it, I guess. But it never felt particularly brave or anything like that then. Now I look back on it and I'm like, “Wow, that was really brave.” That was really brave. 

Anyway, I don't know if that answers your question, maybe in a circuitous way, but I think that my willingness to let my curiosity take me places and to allow for the fear to be there and to do the things anyway, I think we're the thing is that really shifted the most that allowed for me to get to this place now where I can look back and go, “Oh, wow. I can be kinder to myself. I can like myself.” But there's been lots and lots and lots of work and practices and things and very intentional and very intentional way along the way. Yeah, that's a very long answer to your – 

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely answers the questions. Well, and I think you touched on an important piece, which is what confidence really is. I think part of the struggle is that society, the system, people around us, whatever it is, teaches us that confidence is knowing everything and knowing exactly when you need to be doing it and be the best when it happens. That's not true. Confidence has nothing to do with knowing everything and knowing how to do everything. Confidence is actually the opposite. 

It's knowing that, “Yeah, I'm never going to know everything. I’ll walk into many situations where I have no clue what to do right now, but I do know that I can ask questions, that I can learn, that I can connect the dots, that I can establish maps, that I can be curious. Is this scary? Yeah, but I'm going to do it anyway.” That's true confidence. 

Amy Birks: You're so right on. I love that. That's exactly the thing. I have a seven, almost, she’s going to be eight next week, eight-year-old daughter. Single mom, and I'm like, as we do, right? We're like, I'm going to raise my kid. I'm going to do better than my parents did, and just like, they thought about their parents and they thought about their parents and whatever. 

I am very intentional, because I'm raising a woman. I'm raising a young woman. This is one of the things, because she has a lot of angst and she gets really worried about stuff. I'm like, “Man, then she wants to know the answers and she wants to know the outcomes.” The reason that I, at five-years-old with the lemonade stand was like, “I know how we're going to do it,” was because it was very uncomfortable for me to not be in control of exactly how it was going to go. That is one of the things that I've had to let go of. 

I think to your point, the real, true self confidence is in the letting go and the not knowing and allowing ourselves to just sit with the discomfort of that, which is very, very uncomfortable for humans. We are not wired for that. Our brains are like, “We must be safe. We must know the answers. We got to figure it out, because there's a Saber Tooth tiger waiting for us around the corner. If we're not prepared for that, then we're totally screwed.” I think that if there were an antidote to what is I say “wrong”, like what's wrong with society and humanity right now is that we're not curious enough and we're not willing to allow for that discomfort with the unknown to just be there. Because we're so certain that it's going to kill us. The reality is that it's absolutely not. 

That idea of the not knowing, I think allows for us to be so much more ourselves, which allows our gifts, our intuition, and for the magic of us and the way that we can play in the universe to just show up. I think that can appear when we're not trying so hard and gripping on and making a big show of what our perceived definition of confidence is, or what it's supposed to look like. I love that. You're so astute. Yeah. 

Alex Cullimore: I'm glad you put that, even talking about your story of being five with the lemonade stand, maybe idea, you needed to have that control, which essentially gave you some of this gift of the GPS thinking of having some of these maps out there. We end up in our weaknesses, in our worries, developing superpowers, which we can't feel as superpowers, until we can get into that space of letting that discomfort be discomfort, rather than it being a continual defensive mechanism against the unknown, the worry, the fear, or the lack of thinking what’s going to kill us. 

Amy Birks: Right. Right. It's really wild, when I think about how many, still, right? It's still a thing. This is just the evolution of being a human, is that we're always going to be moving through these things. As we move through time, especially if we're curious committed to personal growth and are practicing and intentional about it, we're going to start to let things go. Then they're going to show up again in other new ways. 

One of the things that I say often is that the areas where I have had those powerups in the game of evolving as a human, the areas where I've had the most accelerated opportunities to really get to know myself and to challenge the stuff that has held me back are in my parenting, as a business owner and in dating. Those three areas have historically been the biggest mirrors for me about where my opportunities lie, in terms of growth and looking at all the things that I'm afraid of. Because holy wow, right? I mean, if that's not the big three, I don't even know what else could possibly be in there. 

I mean, probably looking at my own death would be the next one. But that is something that I don't think we want to get too close to. I keep trying to walk closer to it, because I'm like, that's the big whammy right there, because underneath it all, anything that I'm afraid of when it comes to being a parent, running my business, or dating is always like, “Oh, but I'm going to die for sure, if that doesn't go the way that's supposed to. I am definitely going to die.” 

If I can walk closer to what it might feel like to not be a part of humanity anymore at all and get a little bit more comfortable with that, then, oh, my gosh, the whole game changes, because then, what is there to be afraid of anymore? Nothing. Because that is the ultimate unknown. Oh, it's a good one. Did you think we were going to talk about death? Were you guys – 

Alex Cullimore: We were hoping so. That’s a – 

Cristina Amigoni: That’s the goal with every podcast, but very few people like to go there. 

Alex Cullimore: Just get people to confront their mortality. 

Cristina Amigoni: Right. Exactly. Let’s just talk about it. 

Amy Birks: Why not? Why not? 

Cristina Amigoni: Everything you said is so true. Every thought is like, “I'm not going to survive this.” But that's not really the fear. That's the surface. That's what we call it, but it's not. Well, we're not going to survive everything. No, we are going to die. That's the one thing we're guaranteed. What is it that we're actually afraid of? Is it being ridiculed? Because that means we're outside. Is it being told that we're not as great as we are? What was the actual fear? Because it's not dying. 

Amy Birks: What I think is so interesting is that I think that it is. I think there's the fear up here. My daughter, for instance, so she's got an audition for the local production of Finding Nemo. She's auditioning next week and we started talking about it again, because it hasn't been on her radar. I'm like, “Oh, which song do you think you're going to sing?” She's like, “It's going to ruin my birthday.” I'm like, “What?” She's like, the audition is on the eighth and her birthday is on the 10th. She's like, “I'm so scared.” I'm like, “Okay, right. Let's just talk about it.” 

We're unpacking it. She's afraid. Because she's not even an age, can't even really articulate what it is that she's afraid of. She's worried that she's going to forget the words, she's going to mess it up. It's not going to be perfect. That's the thing, right? Again, she's got that same control thing, mechanism like I have had, and continuing on very with kindness to self, trying to let go of, but it's not going to be perfect. I'm like, okay, well, what does that mean? 

When we think about that, if it's somebody who's making a big risky decision in their business, right? If you guys were going to let go and try to acquire another company to partner with, to bring a whole new level of services to the clients that you work with, that's risky, right? There's unknown on the other side of that. Our body, I think, is in training with that unknown, and it’s like, that feels very edgy, because what might happen, we don't know. Holy, wow, if it doesn't go well, and we've invested all this money, and then oh, my gosh, our reputation's on the line, and oh, my gosh, our families are counting on us, and oh, my gosh, what if the business goes under and then holy shit, I might end up under a bridge and die alone. 

I think it like, if you just follow it all the way down, it always comes down to that – it's the same thread of – the same resonance of it's not going to be perfect when I sing fish are friends, not food, mama, feels the exact same way to her as I’m going to die, because the unknown is just what we're afraid of. Is like, that is the ultimate unknown. If we can say like, but it's all unknown. There's nothing known. Literally nothing. I could be sitting here, and you could be watching me on Zoom here, and three seconds from now, an alien spaceship could beam me up, and I’d be like, “Peace out, guys. I'm going to a party on Mars.” Anything is possible. 

If we can get closer to embracing the idea that, okay, if it's all unknown, then I have nothing to be afraid of, because I can either be afraid of everything and be completely non-functional, or I could just decide that I'm not going to be afraid of anything. It's not as easy as that. You can't just flip it on and flip it off, right? That, ultimately, is where we could move towards, or where I'm at least trying to move towards is like, how do I be less afraid, or at least let it not create reactivity, and that impacts my ability to show up in the world and be the best mother, or the best coach, and strategist, be the best friend, partner, whatever that I can be. I really like this conversation, you guys. Thanks for indulging me. 

Alex Cullimore: No, this is great. This is exactly what we – but, I mean, we didn't know we were going to talk about it, but it's everything we'd hope to talk about. What the realities of being alive are. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's the unknown of connecting to the humans. Honestly, it's like, we never know when we uncover, when we talk about uncovering the human. It's like, let's see what happens. It's not predictable. 

Amy Birks: Wild will last over here. It's great. 

Alex Cullimore: Connecting the dots a little bit, you talked about, hey, that you've had to be your biggest powerup moments in parenting and the work. What are some of those that you'd say, in facing the unknowns, what powerups have you gotten? What are some insights you've had in those domains? 

Amy Birks: Yeah, that's such a great question. You probably have heard this too, right? Everybody says, our children are our greatest teachers. It's so true, because I have been – oh, man. Every time I look at my kid, oh, my gosh, she is amazing. This child is so – she's just the coolest human. She's so fun, so funny, so sweet. She makes me crazy at times, right? Because she is also so much like me. She's got that same discomfort with unknown, wanting to be in control, wanting to know all the answers. 

I look at her and I'm like, “Wow. Okay, so where am I showing up like that still, because it's my job to model for her what's possible?” Because I can talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I’m very good, clearly. The three of us have determined that already, right? I’m very good at talking. I'm like, that's not how we create change in a seven-year-old, right? Or not even that I want to create change in her. That's not how I show her what's possible. That's not how she is able to entrain to new possibilities, or new ways of being, right? If she's experiencing discomfort, and it's a result of things that I know are alive within me, then I'm like, “Oh, shit. This is for me to figure out for me, because it's really for her.” 

The closer that I can get to allowing myself to be as free and fully expressed and not held back by my own mind's limitations, the more potential I know is available for her, because then she sees that and entrains with me in that way as well and sees what's possible. She also resist it, because I'm her mom and she's like, “Oh, you said it? I'm definitely not doing it.” “No, no, no, no, no. That's not true at all, because you said it.” 

But I think at the end of the day, if I show up in a way that is big, powerful, with humility and generosity and gratitude and appreciation for life and adventure and curiosity and a willingness just to show up and really explore what it means to be to myself, then I think the potential is there for her to have that and to do that and to be that, because I know that my parents didn't have that capacity. I didn't have a model for that. It took me a lot longer and I had to be much more self-driven. I see seeds of all that in her and it's very inspiring. 

When I got divorced, that was a moment in my life where I was like, okay, I could take this path that was very similar to my mother’s, which was not beneficial for any of us, or I can figure this out and figure out how to be as me as I can be and continue to be a powerful force for good in my kids’ life. That became necessary. 

Yeah, and then my business continues to show me those opportunities. My growth, my personal growth is commensurate with my business growth. It just is. Every time I – the more that I let go, I'm not doing things from a – it's so interesting as a strategist, because this thing that has historically been my kryptonite is also my greatest gift. I have to really balance how I use it, because I want my clients to be able to have the benefit of the skill set. At the same time, also, the people that tend to work with me also are high achievers, very strategic thinkers, they're very mindy, like I historically have been. All the work that I do continues to benefit them, too, because I'm like, “Great, we're going to create an element of strategy. Then we're also going to be totally okay with being unattached and letting go about it.” 

The more that I lean in and learn how to do that myself and continue to evolve in that way, the better my clients’ results get, because I'm able to impart that to them, too. Yeah, it's well. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's just always there. It's always there. 

Alex Cullimore: I love that it did it, but all the ideas, but I love being like, hey, you come up with a strategy, you come with a plan and don't be too attached to the outcome. Give yourself a plan and know that life is going to happen. Then also, love just living by example, both doing it yourself. You see it for your clients, within yourself, you can see it in your daughter. That is such a powerful example of, “Hey, how can I just show up differently?” That gives permission for other people to find their way to show up how they need to show up. 

Amy Birks: Yeah. There's something, I think, to be said for that exact thing, exactly the way you said it, that when we are the most ourselves as we can be, when we really are committed to that and willing to explore that, then it creates room for everybody around us to be that, too. It feels a lot like empathy as well, when we should show up for people without any agenda, without attachment to outcomes, or without attachment to our own stories of who we see them as, or what we think they are, or what our expectations, or demands are on who they be, then it just creates space. 

That, I think, is what is so needed in the world right now, because everybody's – we're also scared, and so we're all trying to control everything and have it fit into these boxes and stories that feel okay, because if we don't then, oh, shit, we're on this freight train to death, and that is the ultimate unknown and see what happens. Oh, my God. But if we could allow for a little bit more empathy, a little bit more curiosity and for, especially starting with ourselves, then that I think is what creates the space in the room for healing to happen, and for us to be able to see one another and not – 

Again, I always come back to curiosity, because I look at scenarios where historically I would have had a lot of judgment, or especially if it's related to anything political, or any of the things that are dividing the world and especially our country right now. I think that there's so much opportunity to just say, “But why is my way any more right than your way?” Who decided that? And why? 

If I cannot be so attached to – and that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly saying like, “No, your way is okay,” even though I fundamentally disagree. I can still fundamentally disagree with the way you see the world, or the way you want to operate, or treat people, or any of those things, or create laws, or whatever that are going to create less opportunity for others, I'm going to fundamentally disagree with that. I'm going to do whatever I can do to try to build bridges to uncreate that. At the same time, if I bring empathy to that equation, it's not like resistance meeting more resistance. There's not my brick wall meeting your brick wall, because we disagree. 

It's more like, help me understand. Help me understand how this makes sense to you, not because I demanded, but because I genuinely want to understand it. Because my sense is that the reason that you feel that way is probably because you're fucking scared. If you're scared of something, then let's figure out what that is. Is it that you're scared that you're not going to sing the perfect song and then you're not going to get the part that you want in the thing? Is the thing that you're afraid that somebody's going to break into your house, because you have some story about who the people are that are unhoused that are now living in the center that's being built in your neighborhood? 

By the way, that's not who they are. These are the people that serve you coffee at the Starbucks drive through, who happened to be laid off three weeks ago and have nowhere else, right? Anyway, so I think there's so much opportunity in that willingness to be curious and kind to ourselves first, because it creates that room for empathy to exist. Then that allows for us to then go, “Okay, I don't have to be so charged and triggered and activated when things don't look the way that I want them to look. Instead, I can figure out how to build bridges to create solutions and have some level of understanding that will create more opportunity, rather than less.” 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, it's so true. The curiosity in the empathy is hugely lacking everywhere. It's that piece of, what if I don't know? Well, I don't. But what if I don't know the whole story? Because I really don't know the whole story. I saw a post this morning, actually, that was about opening up that immediate judgment. I think the post was about, hey, a kid comes into a store and steals $200 worth of candy. The immediate judgment is well, the kid is a thief. But then the story behind it is like, wait, if you actually stop and realize, why would a kid steal $200 worth of candy? I mean, think about that. It's not one candy bar. It's $200 worth of candy. It's like, oh, it's because he's hoping to be able to sell it back at school, so that he can help his mom pay rent, who just got laid off. Now the entire perspective has shifted. 

Amy Birks: Oh, man. I say this often that I feel like, we've got these amazing brains. We're so smart as humans. We can do so much. Yet, we have this amygdala that has not caught up, like with evolution. It just hasn't, right? Because it does this very good job of keeping us safe and it's also really dumb. It's just dumb. That, I think, is what gets in the way of our ability to be able to see those scenarios and have enough of a pause to go, “I wonder what else might be going on here.” There's got to be a good reason that this is happening. The kid isn't just a criminal, right? The kid isn't just – and even if he did go in there just to steal it just for fun, what happened six months ago that put him on that trajectory to be there, just for fun, right? “Just for fun.” 

It's so interesting. I think that, again, the reason that we don't pause long enough for that and the reason that we let our judgments – I say, I'm guilty of it myself, too, at times. I will say that now, it happens much faster for me if I see a Trump 2024 bumper sticker on somebody's car, I certainly have a thought. But within a nanosecond, I'm like, “They must be so scared. I wonder what's specifically they’re afraid of.” That sort of stuff. 

I think that it takes a real commitment to that and that either like me, nine and a half years ago, I hadn't even seen the potential for me having this, like looking at myself this other way and seeing the possibility for my business to be different. I think sometimes other people just don't – they've grown up in such a way, or they've lived their life in such a way, or they've surrounded, insulated themselves in communities that speak and act and behave and do in such ways that they just don't even know what else could be possible. 

That creates this great opportunity for folks to just be stuck where they are and to not even know that that pause could be useful, or beneficial, not only to the other person, but to themselves. That's the other thing I feel so fascinated about is that when we take that pause, like, I don't feel good when I'm triggered. I'm wanting to flip off the person with the Trump sticker. It doesn't feel good to me to feel that way. It feels much better to go like, “Oh, must be so lost and so scared.” 

Then, to figure out, well, how might I connect with that person? Not even because I feel I want to change them, or change their mind, or anything like that, but just because connection is helpful. I think that especially for people that are moving through the world on a foundation of fear, if that's what their primary motivator is, or the energy through which they move through the world, I think those people especially need more of us to go like, “Hey, how are you doing? You okay over there? What's going on? What's going on really? Tell me more about that.” Those kind of conversations, I think can be really powerful. 

Alex Cullimore: It's fascinating. We always think about wanting to change the world and you always automatically assume that we have to do something huge, or be in charge of something huge. All of the things you've mentioned are active things that we just don't see as active, like choosing empathy, creating space, holding space, getting that connection, being curious, all of those things take an enormous amount of work and are very active endeavors. We don't always categorize them as such, and so I think we'd end up being almost discounted just how potent that ends up being and how much of a mindset shift that can change and how much Jeff and Zach can make in your world and all the people you connect with. 

It's just maybe hard to know. Maybe people don't understand it all the time. I haven't had a chance to experience it. The amount of active labor it takes to get into those spaces and then make sure you're continuing that practice, so it becomes more default is truly – it's enormous. It is the work. Sometimes, I feel like don't see it as such. 

Amy Birks: Yes. I think a quote about, be the change that you wish to see in the world, right? I mean, I've heard it forever for years and decades, right? It always was like, yeah, yeah, yes, yes. Got it. Yes, be the change. Yes, yes, yes. To your point, Alex, about what you're saying, right? I think, especially those of us that are really, and I don't know that there are many of us that don't have some – I think this is part of the human journey is that we feel some compulsion to want to help the world, or change the world, or do something big, or whatever, right? 

I think, because we all have that seed within us, it also, as it grows, it creates this amazing opportunity for overwhelm. Because we're like, “Oh, but that feels so big. How am I going to – I can't possibly do that.” The reason that I gave that example before about the people who are afraid of the center that’s being built. Folks are unhoused and what are they going to do? What's that going to be like? I’m like, “Oh, my God. I'm scared,” is because this week starting work with a new client, was a nonprofit, and they're building a center and a community that – and they're experiencing that. 

I think that when we think about the bigger issues, whether it's homelessness, or poverty, or climate change, or all these things, they feel enormous. We're like, “But I'm only one person. What can I possibly do? I'm just not going to bother, because it feels very uncomfortable. The outcomes of all that feel very uncomfortable. I'm just going to maybe put my plastic bottle on this recycling bin and hope that it's actually making it to a recycling plant and not ending up in the ocean anyway. I'm just going to do that. I can't. I just can't, because it's too much.” 

Our systems just can't manage it, because of that same discomfort that we were talking about before, like trying to just sit with it and be with it and like, “Oh, God. It's going to kill me, even though it's not,” right? I think that because we get so overwhelmed, it's hard to really see. I will also say that for those of us that are like, “But no, I have to do something. It feels enormous. And so, what is that thing I'm going to do?” Oh, my God. That was where I have historically been, because I see the map and because I'm like, “Well, this is how we got to do it. I have to do 600 gazillion things. then I'm going to go run for Senate and I'm going to try to change the world.” 

That feels equally overwhelming. Then we're like, “I can't do all. I don't have the capacity, or the – I can't. It's not sustainable.” Either we go and we're like, “I'm just going to put my little plastic bottle on the thing and blah, blah, blah, everything's fine. It's not for me to worry about. My kids will – their grandchildren will deal with it later, whatever.” Or we're like, “I have to do everything and then I'm unsustainable. Then I want to fall over and die, because I can't do anything.” 

What I think I've come to realize through much tutelage of my best friend and coach, Kelly Sheets, who always reminds me that at the end of the day, no matter what else is going on, who we are being determines our result. That, yeah, be the change that you want to see in the world, because it has become so much more powerful and meaningful to me over the last year or so than, I think, it ever has before, because I can see it. I can really see how, if we just as individuals are willing to be kind to ourselves, be curious about ourselves, slow down for a minute, take a pause, bring some empathy to ourselves, and then bring that out to those around us, that that truly is the path to solving all the world's problems. It really is. 

Again, then the strategist in me, the GPS brain is like, “Okay. How do we get everybody in the world to figure out how to make shifts and to learn all this stuff and to change and evolve, right?” I'm like, no. I just have to be me and keep showing up in the world as me as I can be and know that somebody's going to hear the Siamo podcast and they're going to be like, “Wow, that made a lot of sense. I heard that. I've heard these things before. Now it makes sense. I'm going to go try to be a little bit more me tomorrow, or whatever.” 

I think the opportunities are there. we just show up. Even if it's just me talking to the girl on the phone at the hotel, making the reservation and she's like, “Hi. How are you today?” I'm like, “I'm great. How are you?” She's like, “I'm fine.” I'm like, “Are you really? Are you sure you're fine?” She's like, “What?” I'm like, “You don't sound fine. Are you sure you're okay?” She's like, “Oh. Yeah, I'm okay.” Or just smiling at somebody that would unexpectedly, or saying whatever, these little things, I think are so powerful and meaningful. They create a ripple. It feels so trite to say it. I think it is actually so much more powerful than we give it credit for. That if more of us were willing to just notice when we're – I noticed in the car on the way to Philadelphia here, I'm like, I'm not smiling. Let me just smile and see if that lifts my spirit. Three and a half seconds later, I'm like, “Wow, I feel awesome.” Because I just turned on a smile. 

I think that there's a lot of power in these things that we've heard over and over again. In the practice of it, I continue to get more and more and more connected to just how powerful they actually are and how much opportunity there is for us when we are willing to be ourselves, be curious, be kind, be the change, whatever. Yeah. 

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely. Yeah, it's the drop in the ocean, that it is one drop at a time. The snowflakes. The snowflakes. It's, you want an avalanche? It's one snowflake at a time. It doesn't all come at once. It's not one thing, one big thing. It's just one. 

Amy Birks: Yeah. I love that. I love that you said that that way, too, because I think number one, I think incrementally, we change ourselves, right? Or we evolve, right? We transform. We become more ourselves, and that all happened incrementally. That's why I couldn't see it then, like back then how brave I was, courageous for making these choices, or doing these things and now I can see it. The me that's me today is different than the me that was me six months ago and six years ago and 26 years ago. 

The other thing that I love about the fact that you said that that way, too, is that we – me being as me as I can be creates this impact, right? It's a one drop in the ocean. We are all the ocean. We are all the water in the atmosphere that becomes this individual snowflake and then the pile on the ground. We are all that. Reminding ourselves, too, that we're all connected, which again, it feels so airy-fairy and whatever, but we're made up of energy, right? Physics proves this, right? It's scientifically, like this is science. We are all made up of the same stuff and we are all connected, whether we're deciding that we're going to believe that we're in these individual meat suits walking around like, “I'm me and I'm by myself, but I got to look out for me, right?” 

Truly, we're all the same. I think that's the other thing that Kelly often reminds me of is that we are all connected. We're all the same. I am you. You are me. This chair that I'm sitting in, it's all – we're all one. That the more that I can really allow myself to feel and believe that and to let go of my ego's desire and need and compulsion to believe something different, the easier it all gets. Because then, I'm not resistant as I once was. It's the resistance that gets in the way. 

Cristina Amigoni: So true. Well, we haven't figured out death yet. That may be a whole other podcast. 

Amy Birks: Trying. I'll let you know when I get there. This is the thing is that I think that there's no figuring it out. 

Cristina Amigoni: No. It really isn’t. 

Amy Birks: I spent a lot of time, like three years ago trying to figure out surrender. Who do I surrender? I want to surrender. I want to be unattached. I want to let go of all this stuff. I got to figure it out. I was certain that there was going to be this moment where the skies were going to part and I was going to be like, “Oh, now I get it.” But it's not that, right? We just suddenly, one day, I was like, “Oh, my God. All those things that I used to be really worried about, I haven't been worried about them in a long time. That's interesting.” 

I have surrendered. I have gotten to that place, but it wasn't a light switch. It was incremental practice at allowing myself to deal with my discomfort, whatever. I think it's the same thing with death. I don't know. It's like figuring it out. I think it's just we just continue to be curious about it. We sit with our discomfort about it. We're like, okay, I can be here in this moment with this extreme uncomfortable feeling of, “Oh, shit. Now what? Okay, I didn't die from sitting with this. I guess, I can continue to keep doing that.” Then I think one day, we look back on it and we're like, “Oh, yeah. I'm not really afraid of that anymore.” 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Totally agree. For sure. To close us off, two questions. One is what is your definition of authenticity? You've talked about us being ourselves. What is that? 

Amy Birks: Yeah. Do you guys know the story of the Golden Buddha? 

Cristina Amigoni: Maybe. 

Alex Cullimore: I think so. Yeah. 

Amy Birks: Yeah. There's this, I'm going to totally mess up the geography of it, because I'm terrible at geography. 

Cristina Amigoni: And yet, you're a map maker. That's interesting. That’s a whole other conversation. 

Amy Birks: I know. I know. 

Alex Cullimore: Map maker. Not map knower. 

Amy Birks: I am great, like show me a map. Then once I learn where the things are, then I'm amazing. But I can't remember. I don't know the 50s. Anyway, so probably somewhere in the Himalayas, wherever, there was this town and they had this amazing golden Buddha. It was huge, hundreds of pounds, stories high. There was a war. There was this invasion coming, and the soldiers were coming and they were going to decimate the city. The villagers, they wanted to preserve their Buddha. They covered it up in dirt and sticks and mud and things and made it – and clay, and made it appear like it was just some big stone Buddha. They covered the gold and then they fled and they left for centuries around however long they were gone. 

The ancestors who knew that it was made of gold, they died, passed on, whatever. Then years and years and years later, the emperor, the ruler, whatever was like, “Let's take that Buddha back to the temple castle, place where I live. Let's move that around.” They went to move it. Again, thinking it was just this stone Buddha. In so doing, they realized that some of the stuff came off and they were like, “Oh, my God. There's a gold Buddha under here. Oh, wow.” They took it all off and whatever. 

The reason that I love this story and I actually wrote about it in my book, The Hustle-Free Business, is because I feel like that's our authenticity, right? We are born totally perfect beings. We know who we are. We're infused with that at birth. Then we spend our lives through conditioning and our family life and our societal whatever, and the choices that we make and the paths we walk, caking on all this stuff to cover up who we are to protect ourselves, because we don't want the terrible army to come and take our golden Buddha away. We protect ourselves with all of that. 

That authenticity is our willingness to start to get curious and be like, maybe there's something else under here. What else could that be? Our willingness to just go inward and peel off some of those layers to find what is truly so golden, perfect, utterly ourselves that feels like lightness and ease and not trying and not efforting and it's just effortless. That to me is authenticity and our expression of our authentic selves. 

Cristina Amigoni: Love the story. I didn't know about the golden Buddha. 

Amy Birks: Yeah. It's a true story. It's amazing. I told it terribly, because I made it sound like it was not, but it is a true story. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's a really cool story. 

Alex Cullimore: One last question for you as well. Where can people find you? 

Amy Birks: Yeah, great question. I would say, a couple places. My website is amybirks.com. A-M-Y-B-I-R-K-S.com. I've got a cool thing there for folks that want to figure out how to more authentically convert more clients. I've got a little download there, if anybody wants that, to be themselves and make more sales. Then I'm on LinkedIn, usually three days a week. This week I'm taking off. Three days a week, you can find me on LinkedIn talking about stuff like this and how to simplify your business model and scale without having to sacrifice the things that are really important. Yeah, thanks for that. 

Cristina Amigoni: We'll definitely have those in the show notes. 

Amy Birks: Awesome. You guys, this was so fun. Thank you for having me. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. 

Amy Birks: Talk about all this stuff. It's so fun. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you. This is great. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, great conversation. Lots of insights. Go be the snowflake and the drop in the ocean. 

Amy Birks: Yes. 

Cristina Amigoni: Especially the snowflake.  

Amy Birks: Big time. 

Cristina Amigoni: We embrace snowflakes. Go be the snowflake. 

Alex Cullimore: Well, thank you, everybody, for listening. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW] 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo Podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara, and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or on our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook. WeAreSiamo is spelled W-E-A-R-E-S-I-A-M-O. 

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always uncover the human.