Inspiration, Influence, and Impact: Redefining Mentorship with Scott Miller

EPISODE 68

[INTRODUCTION]

Cristina Amigoni: Hi. Just finished laughing.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Yeah, I’m still wiping a couple of tears away quite honestly. That was a blast. We just had our conversation with Scott Jeffrey Miller. He's the author of many, many books. He comes from the Franklin Covey Leadership Company for many, many years. Running a talent agency now and 10,000 other things. Honestly, I don't know how he has all of the energy. But I have got to find whatever secret supply that is, because that he's doing it, man.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Whatever he's taking and doing, we got to follow. Because, oh my God. And he has three boys that he's very involved in. And they tag along with a lot of things. So yeah, he's got endless amounts of energy. And the great part about me interviewing him was the fact that I remember, when we started the podcast, he was one of those people that I told Alex, "One day, we will have Scott Miller on this podcast. We will be at that level that we can reach out and he will say yes." And that day has arrived.

Alex Cullimore: That day was today. Hopefully, we'll have more of those days because, man, this was an absolute blast.

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yes. So now, maybe once we have him, we can go to the next and find more really fun, inspiring, genuine, and authentic leaders and mentors out there. 

Alex Cullimore: I can't wait to see, man. I can't wait until you listen to Scott Miller. Please enjoy this conversation.

Cristina Amigoni: Enjoy.

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives. 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, co-workers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: And this is Alex Cullimore. Let’s dive in.

Cristina Amigoni: Let’s dive in. 

 “Authenticity means freedom.”

“Authenticity means going with your gut.”

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.”

“Being authentic means that you have the integrity to yourself.”

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.”

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.”

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.”

[EPISODE]

Cristina Amigoni: Hello and welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today, we have a very special guest. We have Scott Miller. Welcome to the podcast, Scott.

Scott Miller: Alex, thank you. Cristina was delighted to be here. Thank you for the spotlight and the platform today.

Cristina Amigoni: Excited to have you.

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. So, you guys actually met a little bit more basically on LinkedIn. Cristina has been following. And I have since been following Scott quite frequently since Cristina introduced me. But actually, let's let you give your intro, Scott. What are you up to? What do you do?

Scott Miller: Well, point of clarification. I’m following Cristina. Let's just make sure that everybody is clear on that. I’m getting the benefit of seeing all of her wisdom. And she's graciously agreed to follow me back. So, it's great to be with you both today. As you said, my name is Scott Jeffrey Miller. I live here in Salt Lake City, Utah, right downtown by the capitol with my wife, Stephanie, and our three young sons who are, at last count, six, nine, and eleven. And to my wife's absolute horror, they all have my energy and indefatigable fatigable reservoir of tenacity. We're very blessed to have three very healthy boys. 

Cristina Amigoni: And your style.

Scott Miller: And my style. Yeah, sometimes forced. I’m originally from the East Coast. I’m from Orlando, Florida, where I was raised. Worked for the Walt Disney Company, where, after four years, they invited me to leave. A different topic, different podcast. But where does a single Catholic boy move from Orlando, Florida? Well, of course, to Provo, Utah, where all the Catholics are. 

So, 25, 26 years ago, I moved. And no, there were no Catholics in Utah 25 years ago, right? So, I was privileged to be recruited by Dr. Stephen R. Covey, of course, of The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People influence. And had a 26-year career with the company where I started on the front line and worked my way up to the C-suite where I served as the Chief Marketing Officer for a decade. I retired from that company formally about a year and a half ago. And I’m now a paid advisor to the firm. I host a podcast very similar to yours for the company to a podcast. And I’m the author of numerous books. And I own a speaker's bureau, literary bureau, and talent bureau, kind of an agency called Gray Miller, where we represent some of the biggest names in the speaking literary and talent world. Let's see, I host a radio program on iHeart Radio, a book club for bookclub.com, and other things that will make me sound fatiguing that I won't mention today. And I write a column for Inc. Magazine each week and a couple of side hustles here and there. Yes, I sleep. 

Cristina Amigoni: And you clearly figured out how to clone yourself. 

Scott Miller: No. But I have figured out how to maximize my productivity because I am an early riser. I rise at four o'clock every morning, like clockwork. And I’m asleep every night by the second house on International House Hunters. Like I could not tell you how anybody ever picked – Because I never make it past the second house. I’m out cold by like 9:20. Do they actually buy a house? I don't know. I never made it to the end. I don't even know.

Alex Cullimore: I think it just shows people. Who knows? Who knows how it is? 

Scott Miller: Yeah.

Alex Cullimore: So how do you end up with like just endless energy on this? That is an incredible list of things that you currently do. 

Scott Miller: You know, I’ve always been a fairly energetic person. I think I eat fairly well and exercise and manage my energy well. I know what my peak is. I know my trough is. I know my recovery. My peak is from 4a.m to about 11 a.m. And I pack my things that are high value in the morning. And I tend to go into a bit of a trough over lunch, like 11 to 1. I'm not taking a siesta or an Italian nap. And then I kind of recover from 1 to about 5. Then I start to kind of peek in. So, I make sure that my day is organized fiercely well around my peak, my trough, and my recovery. 

 And you know, like a lot of us, I’m just grateful to be alive. I’m grateful for the time I have. So, I’m trying to maximize it while I’m here. And I have a pervasive sense of gratitude for all the opportunities I have and try to look on the bright side of most things and not wallow in my mistakes, my messes, of which there are many. Some call that a narcissist or a sociopath. I call it just looking toward the future. 

Cristina Amigoni: The joy of life.

Scott Miller: That's right. Well said. Well said.

Cristina Amigoni: Well, I know we wanted to talk about mentors as one of the many topics that you have touched on in books, podcasts, articles, mastermind groups, and everything else that you do. And funnily enough, you said that you follow me. When in reality, I remember my eye-catching posts, because I was like, "Wow! This guy really does marketing well." So, in a way, you're my marketing mentor. I’m like, "Oh, Scott does it this way. We should think about that. Let's see what he does." 

Scott Miller: Or not. Or not. But go ahead. I'm enjoying it so far.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. So, tell us about mentors.

Scott Miller: Sure. I mentioned, like you, that I’m privileged to host a podcast. It's called On Leadership with Scott Miller. It's now become the world's largest weekly leadership podcast. Like yours, it's audio and video. It's about six to seven million people each Tuesday. I’m privileged to sit in a chair, just like the two of you, and interview some of the greatest minds. 

This week, Jim Collins, Marcus Buckingham, Malcolm Gladwell, Deepak Chopra. Amazing people each week where I interview them for, just like you 35, 45 minutes. And it's become quite significant. But what I realized was that so much of what they said, Cristina and Alex, the value was off the air. It was the five minutes before we went live, or the 10 minutes and the debrief, right? Or maybe it was how I knew them in some previous life. 

So I decided to write a book called Master Mentors: 30 Transformative Insights From Our Greatest Minds. What I did was I picked 30 of our first 100 guests and I, with their permission, wrote a chapter about one particular insight they mentioned during the podcast, or perhaps it was off-air, and I shared a story about it. Easy, breezy read. Kind of Chicken Soup for the Soul 2021 or so. 

 And with their permission, I posted the book, digital, audio, video, and print. Yes, you heard that. Digital, audio, video, and print. It's being released as a video book in a few weeks from LIT Video books. And it did extremely well. Hit number one on Amazon. It sold tens of thousands of copies. And it really got me thinking about the power of mentors because all these people have been mentors to me in my life, whether it was a 30-minute mentoring session. Whether it was – one of them was a dear friend of mine, like Seth Godin. Or others perhaps I met for the first time, like Nick Vujicic. 

And so, the book did very well. So, I just finished volume two. You can see, one is orange, and one is green. Master Mentors volume two. Thirty new mentors. Thirty new insights. It comes out in October. Volume three comes out the following year. On my way to ten. 

And so, it really got me thinking about the power of mentoring. And so now I’m writing a new book for Harper Collins called The Ultimate Mentoring Guide. It outlines the roles that mentors play and the roles they don't play or shouldn't play to set good boundaries and good outcomes as well. So that mentoring guide will come out in 2023. Yeah, early 2023. I’m just working on the book now. 

But I become passionate about the topic of mentoring. Most organizations, if they're trying to retain their staff, are putting mentoring initiatives in place. So, I’m happy today to discuss my insights around being a mentee, which I am, and being a mentor, which I am as well because. I think it's the hallmark of every great career, is that they've had a transitional, a transformational mentor in their life, or many for that matter, including me.

Alex Cullimore: It's really interesting. And you mentioned that you sometimes have mentors you've never even met. You have people you just have followed. You understand something about them. So how does that work? And how do you define mentorship in general?

Scott Miller: Yeah, I think it's a limiting paradigm, Alex, to think that your mentor has to be somebody on the sixth floor in the executive suite that has an e in front of their title, EVP, SVP, C, C-level. That's a very traditional and totally appropriate and valuable way to have a mentoring relationship, right? 

By all means, if the CFO is willing to mentor you, take her up on her offer. And I think it’s way limiting because typically they're going to mentor you through the culture of the organization, which is a valuable tool if you plan to stay there for multi-decades, which most aren't if you check the statistics in the last couple of years. It'll swing back. But you get the point. That's a great mentoring relationship. Someone in the organization you respect, they're respected. They have positional power or perhaps they have influential power. They know how to navigate the culture. And they know what types of skills and talents and values are valued in that culture. By all means, pursue that type of mentorship. 

And I think that's too limiting. Because as you mentioned, I’m passionate about this idea that most of my mentors in life I’ve never met. They don't even know I’m alive. They don't know that I even exist. I listen to their radio program all during high school and college about law, finance, buying, flipping houses, managing your credit score, or whatever it was. I can date myself. 

But back in the 80s, I used to listen to two radio programs every night, Bruce Williams and Sally Jessy Raphael. You see, Sally Jessy Raphael was a radio talk show host long before she became a public therapist on television and then went sideways like Maury Povich style or Jerry Springer. But they've mentored me tremendously. They have no idea I’m even alive. Bruce Williams has since passed. But last time I checked, Sally Jessy Raphael is still alive. 

But I think mentees should not box themselves into the traditional idea of what mentorship is, like every Thursday, from one to two o'clock, you're going to Zoom call and you kind of shaking your boots with this all-knowing, all-powerful mentor. That helps sometimes. That gets you on the right track. But I think we should look for mentors in all areas of our life, authors, podcast hosts, radio hosts, television hosts, keynotes, right? People have TED talks. 

I've met Seth Godin probably three times. I’ve talked to him 50 times. He's a friend of mine. But much of his influence on me is not from conversations I’ve had about myself. It's things he's said at conferences or written in books that have a profound impact on my focus, my discipline, and my ability to differentiate between what is reckless and what is fearless. This is a concept that Seth taught me while he taught others as well. Oftentimes, I was masquerading as being fearless. When in fact, I was really being reckless, reckless with my brain, reckless with my feelings, your brand. And so, I would encourage all your listeners and viewers to think about who in your life perhaps is an informal mentor? And how do you sap that dry and apply it to your life? Or perhaps even turn it into some kind of formal mentoring relationship. 

Cristina Amigoni: I really like that. A couple of things that come to mind are, first, there is this – At least I don't know if it's generational, and I’m part of that generation, too, but this almost myth and assumption that a mentor-mentee relationship, it's like a written contract with signed and blood with a Harry Potter unbreakable bond. And both parties have to agree on which box they fit in and when that bond ends. And it's not like that. It's much more fluid. It's more about who inspires me to be a better person. Where do I find that inspiration? 

Scott Miller: Well, first of all, I knew I loved you because I see behind you, you have Simon Sinek's book Together is Better, one of the best books ever written. I’m so jealous I didn't write that book. It's excellent. Together is Better, people. Don't buy my book. Go buy Simon Sinek's book. 

To your point, Cristina, we both agree that's very valuable. You don't say that it diminishes the formal aspect of mentorship. I think setting boundaries, knowing your role, having a clear end in mind, and having a clear outcome in mind. At the end of seven weeks, I’m going to cease being your mentor because I have a job and a life and children and so on and so forth. 

And by the way, setting standards for what is the role of the mentee, right? If you're going to take my hour each week, you have to deliver on the commitments we made last week. And by the way, don't come on and ask me to introduce you to Deepak Chopra. It's not going to happen. Don't ask me to fund your business. It's not going to happen. Wait till I offer. 

So, I do think those parameters are extremely valuable informal mentoring relationships. And everybody ought to have one of those or two of those at any given time. And then there's this bigger idea. That's not an or. It's an idea to say, "What can I learn from Simon Sinek who's not my mentor? He does not know I am alive. I have not yet interviewed him. But what can I learn from him?" Not just theoretically.  How do I apply in my life what General McChrystal taught me, a four-star general about being on the right side of history? About making sure that my positions on social justice, like Black Lives Matter, White Privilege, vaccine, mask-wearing, right? Is really thinking about my position on that now, "Well, I wished it would have been five years from now when my kids ask me, "What did you do to contribute to that? Or what was your position on that? Or who did you vote for based on what value you had?" And I’d never met General McChrystal. We'd become friends. And I think he would call me a friend. But I would definitely call him a mentor. Never met him in person. 

Alex Cullimore: Would you consider mentoring a lot like learning? Because I remember you mentioned you talked about your peak, trough, and recovery, which I was just reading the Daniel Pink chapter, a bit about the peak, trough, and recovery. So, is it a lot of the learning experience? What helps feel like it's, to you, more mentoring? 

Scott Miller: I think mentoring is a precarious role, right? I think most – Too many mentors feel like their responsibility is to help the mentee do it their way. Well, here's what I would do if I were you. And here's how I did that. And here's what my concern is. It's a risky slope. 

I write about it my book; the ultimate mentoring guide is your role is to show wisdom. Your role is to offer insights that the other person might ignite, right? Might ignite their genius that would help them navigate potholes that their personality or their talents or their weaknesses or fears might fall into. Not yours. It's a precarious balance. 

So I kind of love mentoring from afar because Dan Pink did not write that chapter with Scott Miller in mind. If he did, he would have said peak, peak, and peak. He wouldn't have said peak, trough, and recovery. But I tell you, when I read that chapter, this is of course what Alex is referring to, is in his most recent book When, all about the timing of life, right? When is the best time to have surgery? It's always the first appointment. Always. When is the best time to see the parole board? Well, I’d argue never. And so would he. But if you're going to be in front of the parole board, make sure you're the first person, not the fifth person, because the stats show that your likelihood of being paroled is much higher if you're the first than the seventh appointment. They're humans after all. 

But he wrote this chapter where he mentioned your circadian rhythm, which I’ve never heard of. I mean, where have I been for 52 years, right? I’ve never heard of that before. And he talked about the value of knowing your peak, your trough, and your recovery. We talked about this earlier on. It was transformative for me. It changed my entire schedule. 

But here's an example. My assistant, who acts more as an operations manager, scheduled be tomorrow for a 4 to 5 pm phone call where I’m supposed to write the introduction to a book, a big book coming out. And I’m writing the introduction. Are you kidding me? Four in the afternoon? No. No. No. I can do four in the morning. Because I’m on fire at four in the morning. Or do you mean six or seven? No. You got to change that. I would have worked 11 hours like full for Scott Miller 11 hours. I’m toast. 

So in many ways, Dan Pink, who I do know personally. And he's endorsed my books. He's absolutely mentored me to better manage my schedule and organize my appointments. Intense intellectual things in the morning. Less rigorous things around lunch, but not water skiing or snow skiing, I wish. But things that don't require signing a thousand books, or a hundred bucks, or things like that. 

So, I think it's important what you're saying is to look for mentorship in non-traditional ways. You might go to a TEDx. You may go to a conference. And you might find someone who speaks on stage that you think is valuable. 

Here's a good example. I did not know who Dr. Susan David was, right? She's a South African psychologist based out of the Harvard Medical School. She wrote a book called Emotional Agility and has an amazing TED talk. I never heard of her before. I saw her at the World Business Forum two years ago. I was riveted, A, because she's South African. Her accent is amazing. And she's easy on the eyes. Has a Ph.D. and wrote a book. And she's incredibly smart. And I just became riveted with her. 

Since then, I’ve watched and read everything she's ever written. I follow all of her columns, all over social media. She's been mentoring me in absentia about my own emotional agility. Since then, we've become friends. We're collaborating on a few projects together. And I’ve managed to weasel my way into a world of genius. But I would definitely call Dr. David a mentor to me. She would not refer to herself as having mentored me at all, because I don't stalk her. I mean, I do stalk her, but she doesn't know that. But she's had a profound impact on my experience. 

And Daniel Goldman, right? He, of course, was the author of Emotional Intelligence. And I saw him also at a conference speaker. And I followed him for years and took pictures of his slides and thought about where my self-esteem and my self-awareness were low. You get the point, right? I would call Daniel Goldman a mentor of mine. And I’m proud to call him that. He might be proud to know that. I don't know. I have to tell him.

It was a long answer. I apologize. I mean to reiterate that expand your framework of what you think of mentorship is, and also how you're perhaps mentoring others. 

You know, a good example. Cristina was generous when she mentioned that perhaps some of my marketing failures or rare successes have influenced perhaps the way that she's thinking of marketing. I did not know that. And as a result of her graciously disclosing that, I might be more thoughtful now about who is envisioning me as a mentor informally on things that I do.

Cristina Amigoni: It's super fascinating. I love that thought, that's like it's in little pieces. It's a 30-minute conversation. It's in informal agreement with boundaries and timeline and all of that. And I actually get Susan Davis's newsletter in my inbox, Seth Godin's newsletter every morning in my inbox and Simon Sinek's inspirational quotes. And so, I start my day – 

Scott Miller: And Scott Miller's Instagram feed. Don't forget that's, right? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. And, always, Scott Miller's Instagram and LinkedIn feed. And so, I actually start my day by getting inspiration from my mentors. And Susan, this morning, really touched me. Because she sent a newsletter out, or it was yesterday, or this morning, where she talks about grief, and how grief doesn't have a timeline. 

Scott Miller: Yes. She is the real deal. She is a master mentor featured in my first book. She's a class act. She's abundant. She's strategic. She also can say no. She said no to me on many occasions, right? I’m a raving fan of hers. 

And to your point, I think, at the end of the day, I don't know about you, Cristina or Alex, I’ve never had an original thought in my life. Truly. I’ve never had an original thought. And most of the science will tell you, most humans haven't had an original thought in our lives. What I am is I’m an aggregator. I’m a pollinator. I love to listen and learn, twist and create, and hopefully, give credit to those who were at due. Hopefully, I reference the people whose ideas I’ve co-opted. I love to give credit. It's the right thing to do ethically. And B is legally necessary. But C, I like to readily admit, I’ve had probably no original ideas in my life. 

But as I opened my paradigm on who's mentoring me, I kind of choose to formalize it in my head. "Oh, yeah. Susan is my mentor." And I happen to know Susan David." But I don't know Tony Robbins. I’ve not yet interviewed him. I definitely see tony as a mentor also. And so I’m very comfortable expanding that thought because then I almost use that as a responsibility. Well, Susan would want me to respond this way. And Daniel Amen, like the neuroscientist and the psychiatrist that owns the Amen Clinics. Daniel Amen would want me to think about it this way. And maybe I had too many mentors. But I think they've helped me tremendously. My wife might disagree. But that's a different podcast, too. 

Alex Cullimore: I love that accountability aspect of it, too. Getting that idea that like this is how I would want to act if I knew Susan David is watching over my shoulder. And honestly, that's a pretty good litmus test, I think, for anybody on a given day if you've read any of Susan David's stuff. If she was watching me, that'd be inspirational in a very specific, accountable way. 

Scott Miller: I think so. And it makes you less of a hypocrite, right? Is if you're following these people that have paid the price like Seth, Simon, and Susan, Kim Scott, and Susan Cain. And we can go through all the big authors that have influenced our lives. They've had a profound influence on me equally as profound as the formal mentors of my life. Chuck Farnsworth, Charles Adams, Bob Whitman, Todd Davis. I can name names people who you've never heard of before that have been formal mentors – At least more formal in my life.

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. Yeah, it's so very true. I have lots of voices in my head. Simon Sinek is definitely one of them, and besides Together is Better and The Infinite Game. When I find myself having to make decisions, where it's that pool of, "Oh, do I want to share this or not share this?" And with that, I always go back to what would Simon do in The Infinite Game? Infinite mindset, that's the way you go forward. Yeah, it's just one of the many.

Scott Miller: Yeah. And Cristina, some people might think – Some might think, "No, that's not a mentor. That's just a book you read." Okay. I mean, I choose to sort of be in a relationship with Susan, right? Professionally. I mean, I have a lovely wife. My wife's picking up our sons right now. She would not appreciate it. You get my point, right? I mean, that would be funny. I choose to think of the relationship not delusionally. Just a little more broadly to say, "What if she were my accountability partner? What if Susan David did see me in this meeting today? How would she rate me? Where would she coach me? Where would she be disappointed?" And I think it's made me a more influential author. I think it may be a better podcast, or maybe a better husband, spouse, and friend. 

And so I guess you could call everybody you've ever read your mentor. And those books I’ve read that I won't call my mentor. But I’m very comfortable in inviting other people to think, "So who are those people formally and informally that you perhaps would have as a mentor, whether they know it or not, that will help you be accountable to the knowledge they've instilled in you?"

Alex Cullimore: I love that definition. I think it's a fantastic way of looking at it. And I’m curious what it's like on the flip side of this. You were mentioning it that Cristina is taking some of your marketing ideas and you now might feel a little different or more intentional about how you're doing these things. What does it feel like on your side that you've written books? You now know a different angle of influence you might not have thought of before on LinkedIn. What kind of responsibility and what does that feel like to you? 

Scott Miller: Yeah, it's a heavy question. I wasn't expecting that. But I’m glad you asked it. You're exactly right. I mean, not so dissimilar to you. I was a leader for 25 years. I was an executive-level leader in a public company. I did not have LinkedIn. Because if I did, then I would have had a hundred inquiries a day asking for jobs or interviews. So I was actually kind of in the witness protection program. I did not have any social media four years ago. Not legally, but metaphorically, because I did not want to be in the public eye. I was behind the scenes, producer, and director.

And then as I began to look at the second half of my career, I thought, "I think I have some things to say." So, I decided to come out a little more publicly and wrote columns. And my social media grew. And wrote four or five books, and this podcast, and radio program, and columns. And it put the responsibility on me, Alex, larger than maybe I expected. I don't think I thought through it very well. Had I, I might not have done that. I would have liked day-traded stocks or something less high profile. Because my profile has grown. So, therefore, has criticism. So has the vitriol. So has the compliments. Usually, two bits of vitriol for everyone complement just so you know, right? So, heads up to those of you who are looking to transition to the public eye. Be careful what you say, what you write, what you post.

And I’ve had people on LinkedIn literally say to me, "I don't appreciate the way you abuse LinkedIn. This is a professional network. And I don't like that you post photos of your family on it." And so, now, having run public relations for a global company, I don't take debate very easily. So, I exercise an unnatural level of maturity and don't take debate.

But I had to look at that and think, "Well, they have a couple of options. They can unfollow me." It's pretty easy to click, right? There are, last time I checked, seven and a half billion people out there, who could choose to follow. And I also don't agree with them. I think that LinkedIn is a professional network. But we can't divide our lives anymore/ People used to have their personal life, and they used to have their professional life and they kept – No. No. Now it's your whole life. Everyone's bringing their whole life to work. And how I parent is also how I lead, like it or not. And how I manage my personal finances is probably not so dissimilar to how I manage the P&L. The CFO might attest to that, right? 

So as people take jabs that you embarked, you have to be thoughtful about what you're posting and what you're printing. And hopefully, I’m deliberate about that. And you're right. I have to be more thoughtful about how I am viewed as a mentor to others. I’m not everyone's cup of tea. I’m sure I probably lose as many followers as I gain each week. And then you find your voice. You find your posse, right? You find the audience that resonates with you. I’m not everyone's cup of tea like I said. 

And it's interesting to look at my followership and those who read my work and hire me for keynotes. They all start to have a similar profile. And I’m starting to really learn who am I really a mentor. Who thinks I’m a charlatan? And who thinks I’m untouchable? And who thinks I’m a mentor to them? And I’m starting to learn who that avatar is, who that person looks like. It's interesting not who I thought it would be. Long answer to your question, but I’ve learned a lot about, to your point, who am I a mentor to personally, professionally, consciously, unconsciously, intentionally, unintentionally? 

Alex Cullimore: Fascinating segue of looking at that, that you're developing almost the avatar of the amalgamation of people that could be or would most be interested. And I assume that might be maybe some training from marketing creating some personas. But also, I’m curious what does that amalgamation look like to you? 

Scott Miller: I knew you were going – Yeah, it's usually ultra-successful billionaires with really hot model boyfriends and girlfriends. I'm kidding. 

Cristina Amigoni: Sounds exactly like Susan David. 

Scott Miller: Yeah, she'd really fit that. It's Harvard PhDs. That's who's [inaudible 00:30:34]. You know, and I was hoping you weren't going to ask that. But I kind of led you to that. So, I'll be the truth. It's interesting because as I mentioned, I worked my way into becoming a named executive officer in a public company. That's kind of a big mantle, right? I mean, the SCC watches what I did. And it was highly scrutinized. And there was an enormous amount of legal responsibility about what you say and don't say. And I could legally commit the company to a hundred-million-dollar deal with no one's permission. It was kind of a lot of responsibility. I didn't do that. But you get the point. Cut the million-dollar deals. 

But my following is not the C-suite actually. My following is heavily female. It's heavily in the sort of 30 to 55 age group. It's not typically people in the executive ranks. It's usually leaders in the manager to director level that often either have full-time careers or they have side hustles. Often, they're full-time parents, part-time parents, or full-time parents with part-time gigs. And they find me credible but relatable. They find me funny, but not comical. And they find the wisdom that I’ve had access to from all these other mentors and authors and my own career from having been in this leadership. So, for 30 years, they find my advice to be maybe more practical than some of the ethereal things that they may have heard or learned that aren't as easy to say. I think they find my ability to speak plainly and practically valuable. So that really is my – If you look at my followership, it's probably 90% percent that profile of professional. 

And I am enormously grateful and enormously appreciative. And I don't use that in any disparaging way. I am honored that women in their 40s that have full-time careers or have stepped back and they're parenting their family for reasons that were voiced upon them or they chose, but they still find my message and my mistakes valuable. There are a lot of women that are buying my books and giving them to their husbands and their bosses. And so I am – 

Cristina Amigoni: Read this. 

Scott Miller: Like this. Like Cristina gave to Alex. No. I mean this in all sincerity. I am genuinely honored to have found a voice amongst that profile, and I treasure it and hopefully feed them and reward them for investing their time with me. I couldn't say that more genuinely than I just did. I couldn't mean it more genuinely than I just did.

Alex Cullimore: So, I love that idea. And you can tell me if I’m writing a story that doesn't feel accurate here. But you talked about like you're kind of developing that understanding of that persona. How much does understanding that start to then, in reverse, influence what you're posting and what you're writing?

Scott Miller: Oh, definitely does. Absolutely. Yeah. Can I tell you who I learned it from? So, Rachel Hollis, you may know, is a very famous author in America. She burst from the scene about three years ago with her books Girl, Wash Your Face and Girl, Stops Apologizing. In 20, I think it was 19, she sold more books in America than any other author, except Michelle Obama. 

Now, she of course had built her business for a decade. She was a blogger. She was a lifestyle, social media expert. And then she kind of burst bigger with these two books. And since then, she's had a rough time, right? Her marriage has ended. Her business kind of imploded. And she had a social media run that was not real favorable or charitable to her. And she's working her way back. I like her. She probably owns some of her mistakes, and probably people were harsh on her. Different podcast. Different story. 

My point is I don't know anybody who's had a better case study of managing their brand or mismanaging their brand than Rachel Hollis. It literally should be an HBR case study in terms of how to build a meteoric business, and then, quite frankly, fall quite quickly. And I wish for Rachel that she builds it back as I think she's got a lot to give and has given a lot. 

My point is, when I met with Rachel in her office in Austin, Texas two years ago, she read Management Mess to Leadership Success, my first book. Loved it. Brought me in. And I gave a fireside chat to her team of about 70 people. And I went back to her office afterward and talked to her. And she talked about who her customer was, who her client was. And she named her. Her name was Jennifer. She was 32 years old. She had 2.5 kids. Sorry for a half kid. And she had a side hustle. And she had a college degree. And she talked exactly about how she was in a relationship with Jennifer. That was, of course, a metaphor. But there were millions of Jennifers out there that kind of put Rachel on a pedestal. And there's only one way down from that, right? Which is to fall off the pedestal. 

So, my point is I do think it's extremely valuable to get into conversation with who your posse is. You're not going to be everything to everybody. And as I have learned the hard way sometimes that I’m not everyone's cup of tea. That doesn't mean that I have to have imposter syndrome or that I have to reach all my messages. But I do take responsibly, to your point, Alex, that now that I know who I’m in conversation with, not exclusively. There are plenty of men that are finding me credible, people who are fluid in their gender and they're finding me credible as well, too. That I will be thinking about the value that I’m adding every day, including not just the successes, but the failures. 

You'll see me just as easily talk about my number one bestseller as I’ll post a video with my three boys in the background. In fact, just behind me here, and talk about how many books my new release sold. And if you saw the video, you saw that my first book sold about 14,000 copies in the first week. My third book sold 49 copies. I couldn't find 49 people in the world to buy my third book. And so, I try to be as authentic as possible. Just telling the truth, right? The good, the bad, and the ugly, and the hopes that people can learn from the power of that. 

Cristina Amigoni: And bringing your whole life to social media, to the forefront, that helps with that. It's "Oh, he's human. That's why I can relate to him." It's not this perfection. It's not that everything that he touches turns into gold. There's the human struggle. He's still a parent. He's all these other things. And he's a whole human. And people forget that that's what we want to relate to. We want to know that we're not the only humans and everybody else is alien celebrities and perfectionists.

Scott Miller: Cristina, I think that is so valuable. I think it's why my first book did so well, Management Mess to Leadership Success. Not because it was a well-written book. I mean, come on. Jim Collins would laugh if you read that book. But of course, Jim Collins isn't part of my posse, right? Let's be clear on that. 

But it's really the book where I talked about the underbelly of leadership. How leadership is tough. It's not for everyone. Not everyone should be a leader. I talked about a lot of my foibles. I was quite vulnerable. Now, as a Catholic, that's easy for me to confess my sins. I'm trying to be careful not to be an open kimono everywhere I go. My wife tells me my biggest area of growth is I over-disclose. And she's right. See me at a parent-teacher conference. I'm talking about everything. It's like, "This is not our therapist. This is our kids' teacher, Scott." Shut up." 

 I think you're right. I think it's very valuable to see what are the pitfalls and mistakes along the way. Two nights ago, I said to my wife, "You know what? I hope I don't wake up in the morning. Those kids are driving my baddy. Good luck to you. There's plenty of life insurance. Buy yourself a Bentley. I don't care. I’m out. Come to find out, here I am two days later. Wait till you read my book Parenting Mess to Launch Success. It is going to be amazing.

Cristina Amigoni: I cannot wait.

Scott Miller: It's going to offend half of the world. But I’m just going to straight-up talk about how parenting sucks. And probably how I suck at it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Alex gets quite a lot of that from me. He doesn't have any kids. And I don't think that after hearing my story, he wants any kids. 

Alex Cullimore: That's been great. It just reinforces that, "I think I’m going to take the." 

Scott Miller: You know what? If I see one more person on Instagram post a photo of their three-year-old that says, "You complete me. My life is just complete. The love you give me –" I’m like, "What the f? What? What? My kids have broken the screens with the footballs. Do you know how many pieces of art they've taken a key? You know many of my cars they've run – What? I can't stand those kids nine times out of 10. I love it the most when they're sleeping. 

Cristina Amigoni: They're so peaceful.

Scott Miller: And they're all me. This is me leading me, right? Time for my parents' revenge. You know, we go to church on Sundays. But my wife's not Catholic. But we're raising our boys Catholic because I think it's important to give our children an identity religiously that they can choose to stay or leave later on. So, we go to church on mass on Sundays. That's a big part of our life on Sundays. I try to make it fun. So, I bring books for them to read. Again, these are young boys, six, nine and eleven, or whatever their ages are, right? 

And so last week, my middle son, who was my exact DNA, right? He's like me to a T. He opens up the book – He's nine. He opens up Noah's Ark, right? The story. By the way, I don't let them read the Old Testament, because that will convince them not to be religious if you read the Old Testament. My nine-year-old opens the book up in the middle of the homily and he says, "Yeah, dad I don't think so. Like snakes, alligators, and elephants in the same boat? Yeah. This isn't true." And he slaps it together and puts it aside in the pew, right in front of the pries. What do I do with this? 

Cristina Amigoni: I’m going to tell you a story that you'll probably decide to unfollow me and block after you hear this. I grew up Catholic. I grew up in Italy. So being Catholic, it's part of our blood. It's like you eat pasta every day. Saying there's no other way of being. And so I’ve gone through all the stages of the Sunday mass, the Sunday school, of the confirmation, First Communion. You name it. All of that. 

And actually, I’m not raising my kids Catholic. And my husband is not very religious either. So, we've kind of forgotten about religion with our kids. We're like, "We don't know how to talk about it." 

Scott Miller: You're a recovering Catholic. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I'm a recovering Catholic. It's like we don't know how to talk about it. We're not quite sure how it fits in our lives. So, let's just skip it and see how far we can go. So I take my kids – 

Scott Miller: You know what? Your children might end up choosing that as a religion more. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so, we go to Italy. And in Italy, you've got a church in every other house. I mean, every other building, it's a church. And so, we do go there. And they start looking around. And they're like, "Mommy, what are those buildings?" They're like, "They're churches." And like, "What's a church?" I was like, "Oh! Oh, I think I skipped a few years."

Scott Miller: You know what? Cristina, we're all just doing our best, right? We're trying to find our path and help our kids be happy and healthy and have self-esteem. And yeah, let's call each other in years and we'll swap stories, right? 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. I’m like, "What do you mean? You're not born and knowing what a church is?" I was born knowing what a church was. Nobody explained it to me.

Scott Miller: Well, for the record, my middle son wished she did not know what a church is, right? But my oldest son is the classic oldest child. I never really believed this birth order thing. But I mean when you read the books and you see it, my son will say to me, "Dad, we're going to church. It's Sunday. Right?" And his younger brother will be, "Shut that F up." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. So, I’m trying to convince them to go into the churches because I love the churches in Italy. As an adult, I love them way more than I did as a kid. And so I go in and I always light a candle for my grandmother and my grandfather and say a little prayer. I do all that even though we don't go to church every Sunday. And my kids won't come in. My older son is, "I don't want to go in there." And I’m like, "Why not?" It’s, "Because it's scary. There are dead people. There are zombies in there." And I’m like, "Well, I can't say no to that." 

Scott Miller: Alex had no idea this podcast was going to turn into a Catholic treatise on yes or no. 

Cristina Amigoni: There are ghosts and zombies in there. And I’m like, "How do I explain this without lying and saying that's not true?" 

Scott Miller: Cristina, how old are your children? Don't say 14 and 16, by the way. 

Cristina Amigoni: No. They're seven and ten. 

Scott Miller: They're the same as mine. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure you're doing a wonderful job.

Cristina Amigoni: And this was a few years ago. So hopefully the conversation now is a little bit different.

Scott Miller: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Scott Miller: Where do we go, Alex? Where do we go from here, brother? 

Cristina Amigoni: Zombies and ghosts.

Alex Cullimore: Honestly, I now want to know what the parenting success book is going to be about, the parenting mess to – Or birth order. What does that mean? Where does the birth order fall out? 

Scott Miller: Yeah, look for it. Look for it. It's coming out. I don't know. The problem is I want to write it now. But you can't write a book that says parenting mess to launch success when your oldest is 11. He's at least in high school or something, right? So, once I change the suffix on it. It'll be good and juicy I promise you.

Cristina Amigoni: When it wins the Nobel Peace Prize, that's when the book will come out.

Scott Miller: Or the Pulitzer. I’m sure I won't be. I’m sure I won't be. I'll probably be excommunicated. 

It's interesting, Cristina. My mother is Methodist. My father is Catholic. So, I was raised as a Catholic. And I chose to be a Catholic in life. And I think it's been a wonderful journey for me. My wife went to Catholic school. Not so unlike a lot of northeastern kids. She was raised Protestant. And my wife is not choosing to join the faith of my sons and myself. But it's been – I think it's overall been a good experience. It teaches punctuality, right? And respect. And there's here lie like something bigger than you, right? Whether every part of it is right, or wrong, or abused, or not abused. And I don't mean that literally. I mean that metaphorically. I’ve had a wonderful journey. 

So, I think whether my children choose to become Catholics or not, it's teaching them leadership skills, humanity, forgiveness, and contriteness, and the fact that there's a purpose for them in this world, right? And whether they are a leader is formal or informal, they have to be part of a community and protect others and what it means to be kind and considerate. And so all those things I think are great compliments to how I’m screwing them up as a parent. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great way to put it. And that's part of my Catholic, I guess, knowledge and blood that I still have are that I was always very drawn to saints, to the story of saints, to how saints related in the community, to what they did. I still very much am, because it's that leadership role, is that person that's going to lead the community in whatever way, unique way, that they have to make other people's lives better. 

Scott Miller: They were transition figures, right? They went first. I was interviewing Stephen M. R. Covey yesterday. He, of course, wrote the book The Speed of Trust. And he's releasing a new book called Trust and Inspire. And I asked him this question, Cristina, I said, "Stephen, how do you become a trusted inspired leader when you work in a command-and-control culture? Because a trusted inspired leader is the difference between command and control. And he said very simply, "You go first." 

And I think it's what you just said, right? Are all these catholic saints and all these transition figures, all these thought leaders? They went first. They took a risk. They chose to be a light, not a judge. They chose to be a model, not a critic. And that's what leadership is about, is sometimes just taking the plunge and going first. Being a mentor. It's about going first. So, you have insights, lessons, messes, and successes you can teach through. How's that, Alex, for bringing it full circle? 

Alex Cullimore: I love it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Very well done.

Alex Cullimore: I think it's great.

Scott Miller: I tried to get out on the Catholic thing. 

Alex Cullimore: No. No. That's fantastic. I was just going to say that saints do sound like mentors in that way. But you got it. 

Cristina Amigoni: Only Cristina and Scott could swing that pendulum so far. I hope we've not offended any of the audience. We're laughing at ourselves. 

Cristina Amigoni: I am sure we have. And we'll find others. Probably have inspired others. 

Alex Cullimore: We'll take all the mail on that one. That's fine. 

Cristina Amigoni: To quote Susan David's Instagram, I think it was a LinkedIn post today, "It's about creating the music and not playing waiting for an applause." 

Scott Miller: There you go.

Cristina Amigoni: We're creating music. 

Alex Cullimore: In terms of going first, Scott, where are you at now? What would you like to be leading first with? Where do you see yourself leading others or would like to lead people to? 

Scott Miller: Well, I have several new books coming out. The book I mentioned, is The Ultimate Mentoring Guide. I also am writing another book for a new publisher called Ignite Your Genius. It's a career coaching book. It's really the sort of the 11 tenets of my career that have been instrumental, and I think can make people become more deliberate in their careers. So, I’m writing a career book that'll come out in 2023. I think it'll be phenomenal. I have an online course around that. 

My real passion is around this agency that I co-own, the Speaker's Agency. Talent and literary agency. Really allowing people that are fledgling authors to publish their works. People that are wanting to be on the speaking scene actually book them in speaking gigs. And people have passion but need to be discovered. Whether it'd be for a radio program, podcast, television program, or documentary. 

So, I’m excited about using my platform, my skills, my mistakes, and my learnings to really raise people up. I am not on a trajectory trying to be famous. In fact, you might see me swing back to more behind-the-scenes. Because although I have a lot of books coming out that I’m keynoting a tremendous amount, and this podcast certainly has me in the public eye, I actually take more delight in putting the spotlight on others. I like to get Cristina on a plane to Baltimore in front of a thousand people and see her shine, coach her, mentor her, and get her book published. So, you're going to see me behind the scenes a lot in the coming years as this agency begins to become a formidable speaker's agency, literary agency, and talent agency. We have some great things coming. So, you're going to see my social media in the coming days and weeks an announcement around this agency that I’ve partnered to develop to give voice to thousands of people on the rise.

Cristina Amigoni: That sounds wonderful. And yeah, where do I sign to? 

Scott Miller: Well, it depends. Do you want me to help you find an author or a publisher for your book? Do you want a television program? Do you want a speaking gig? Let me know. 

Cristina Amigoni: All right, sounds good. I say no TV. Can't handle that.

Scott Miller: No TV. You know what? If you see some of the TV programmings, you could crush it, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm not a camera-friendly person. 

Scott Miller: What are you talking about? I think you are mistaken. I think you are mistaken. Americans love a good accent. So, you're 90% there. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's the secret then. Yeah. So, to not spend all of your – What's the opposite of your peak time? Your low time? 

Scott Miller: My trough. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, your trough, yes, which we are in right now because it is afternoon. 

Scott Miller: Yeah. You're coming to my recovery. You're in my recovery actually right now. If you are thinking, "This is his recovery? My God! What does trough look like?" 

Cristina Amigoni: It's the change curve. It's "Okay, we're out of the pit." 

Scott Miller: You're exactly right. Yes. Look at the OG womp coming out of you. 

Cristina Amigoni: I know. So, we have two last questions for you. One is where can people find you? I mean, we've got books, we've got all sorts of things happening. And the other one, and you choose the order, is what's your definition of authenticity? 

Scott Miller: Sure. Well, to quote my wife, "It's hard not to find me these days." And she's not paying me a compliment. She thinks I’m grossly overexposed. So, you can visit me at scottjeffreymiller.com. I have all my books on there, podcast episodes, Inc. columns, and radio episodes. Everything Scott Miller is at scottjeffreymiller.com. You also can follow me or friend me on any social platform, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, or Facebook, you name it. So, you can find me pretty much anywhere. You can also Google Scott Miller on Leadership. That's the name of the podcast. And subscribe to the podcast on any platform. 

Perhaps, more importantly, my definition of authenticity. It probably is finding congruence between what is your public life, your private life, and your secret life. Because, right, everyone's got a public life, and everyone's got a private life, and then everyone has a secret life. 

And in 2022, it's probably more acceptable, more encouraged, more compelling, more requisite to bring congruence to your public life and your personal life and your secret life. Now, if your secret life is that of a mass killer, then no, don't bring congruence to that. But I think most of us should feel more and more comfortable about bringing alignment and congruence with all three of those. 

Now some will say, "No. No. No. I don't have a secret life." No. No. No. I think everyone has a secret life. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, we all do. Yes. 

Scott Miller: We all do. That perhaps your spouse doesn't know about, right? Or he's your ex-spouse because now he does know about it. Or because it was a secret. And obviously, use good judgment and all of that. But I do think that's something I’m striving towards to really figure out, "So what parts of my life are a secret? And why are they a secret? And why do I not feel comfortable sharing them? Talking about them? Acting on them?" Whether it'd be courage. Whether it'd be someone's dreams. Whether it'd be someone's sexuality or orientation. Or whether it's someone's fears. Whether it's someone's passion that is their secret and they're not yet comfortable going first or going at all. So maybe a long answer to your question, but it's bringing congruence between your public, your private, and your secret lives. 

I’m not sure 10 years ago I could have said that comfortably because I don't think most corporations were ready for people to bring congruency between their public and their private life, let alone their secret life. Now, of course, that can become a distraction, can it not, if you're bringing your secret life and your private life to the workplace every hour every day. You have to use good judgment, and all things, and maybe moderation. Know your audience. Know your setting. 

But I think now, like never before in our generation, in our lifetime, is society – Are organizations more willing to have you bring congruence between the three? So that's what I’d say. I didn't rehearse that. That's kind of what I’m feeling. 

Alex Cullimore: I love it. That's great. 

Cristina Amigoni: More authentic if you don't rehearse it. 

Scott Miller: Did not rehearse it. Unfortunately, that was extemporaneous. So, if anything sounded wacky there, you know – 

Cristina Amigoni: Not at all. I love the concept of the secret life. 

Scott Miller: You know what? Don't edit it. Don't edit it. 

Cristina Amigoni: We don't edit. We bring authenticity from the beginning to the end. 

Scott Miller: I thoroughly enjoyed this. Three boys are going to burst through that front door at their peak, at their peak at any moment. So, I got to beat that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Got good luck with that. 

Alex Cullimore: Thanks so much, Scott. It's so great to meet you. And one of our mentors, until his secret life as a mess comes out. Good luck with everything, Scott. We'll talk to you soon. And thank you everyone for listening. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you so much.

[OUTRO]

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood. 

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas, or questions. You can reach us at podcast wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O.

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others, and always Uncover the Human.

[END]