Exploring the Power of Humility and Authenticity in Leadership with Joe Messina

EPISODE 118 

Joe Messina: Have the courage to take your ideas up the chain so that people can either tell you, you don't have the whole picture, and that's fine. Stay in your lane is an acceptable answer sometimes, or they can hear you out and do something better for the company. 

[EPISODE] 

Alex Cullimore: Hello, Cristina. 

Cristina Amigoni: Hi. 

Alex Cullimore: We are back again here with another guest/client/student, actually now. So, we have Joe Messina on the podcast today, just here to discuss some of humility and authenticity and leadership, which is just a blast of a conversation. Joe is always informative, always happy, always just fun to be around. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Great conversation, and I would say, that we learned from him just as much as he may, or may not learn from us. 

Alex Cullimore: What is -- 

Cristina Amigoni: But we actually talked about some of that in the conversation in some roundabout way. But the role of a leader is constantly learning, realizing you don't know everything, you don't even know most of the things that are out there, the learning journey never ends, and that's where it is. 

Alex Cullimore: You hit on so many great themes that I've noticed from the leaders that we particularly enjoy working with and admire, and have gotten to see, and the people that you see in the world that you can kind of relate to. There's this ability to stand back and be humble and see the bigger picture, notice how to pull the past and the future into it like a nice inspiration for people, so they can understand what they can do, what's being asked to them, as well as finding all of these ways to kind of intuitively engage them, and what is the thing that will help them learn, grow, and pass the potential they didn't even know they had. You hit so many great ways of describing so many things that I think I've noticed at the abstract, but this got a lot more concrete, just hearing it in this conversation. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Definitely. Two big themes are clarity, being able to be the leader that provides the clarity, and not clarity as in, what's defined in our head, and we understand but make sure that the clarity actually translates on the other side and the humility. 

Alex Cullimore: I think he also pinned well, just the underpinning that is joy. Helping people find joy as well as finding your own joy in being a leader. So, there was just this underpinning of what – and all of those just feel so related to everything that we talked about when we talk about what really motivates humans, what works for humans. So, it was very both validating and nice to hear it described so concretely. 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, and also what I found interesting, and he said, I think towards the end, was how when all these things are in place, clarity, humility, joy, fulfillment, the harmonies in place, you actually don't perceive it. So, it's not obvious. Instead of looking for those metrics that show all these things, how about you show when there's friction? You show when there's lack of motivation. You show when people believe that work has to stink, and suck, and every day is going to be miserable. You show when people don't sleep at night, or spend the weekend miserable because of work. 

Those are the measures that need to be looked at and eliminated. Because when there is no friction, well, that's it. There's no friction. Things actually work. I'm sure we talked about it in the past, but it's like driving a car. If everything is functioning, then you don't actually notice it. You do notice it when the brakes squeak, or when your tire starts making noise. That's when you know when something is not working. But when it's working, you're just singing along to Bon Jovi in the car, while taking the kids to school. You forget you're in the car. 

Alex Cullimore: That's a great metaphor for it. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to keep it that way. I mean, this is the same idea is like creating simplicity out of complexity, like creating a digestible format takes a lot of work. But once it's down to something digestible, it feels very easy, and you don't even notice it. It's like, well, of course it would be this way and that. So, that is a great way of measuring things, is what are you doing to reduce friction? What are you doing to stop the squeaking, the wheels, the brakes, or whatever is coming out that friction is a great way of describing any of that. 

So, it will feel natural, and that doesn't mean it's not a lot of work to get to that or maintain that. But it will. That is, in a lot of ways, that are just some of the success, and Joe has a great way a great way of diving into that and figuring out ways to get into that more frictionless and far from effortless on the leader portion, but effortless feel. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, effortless feel, for sure. Well enjoy, enjoy. 

[INTRODUCTION] 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome to Uncover the Human where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives, 

Cristina Amigoni: Whether that's with our families, coworkers, or even ourselves. 

Alex Cullimore: When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens. 

Cristina Amigoni: This is Cristina Amigoni. 

Alex Cullimore: This is Alex Cullimore. Let's dive in. 

“Authenticity means freedom.” 

“Authenticity means going with your gut.” 

“Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you.” 

“Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.” 

“It's the way our intuition is whispering something deep-rooted and true.” 

“Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be.” 

“It's transparency, relatability. No frills. No makeup. Just being.” 

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Cristina and I are joined today by our guest, Joe Messina. Welcome to the podcast, Joe. 

Joe Messina: Thanks, Alex. Thanks, Cristina. Happy to be here. 

Cristina Amigoni: Happy to have you. 

Alex Cullimore: We’re excited. Excited to have you on. We've been working with Joe a lot in the last year and a half, two years-ish. Now, we currently actually have him as one of the students in our leadership class, and we've got lots of different connection points with Joe, but give us a little background, Joe. What's your background? What's your story? What brought you here? 

Joe Messina: Well, like I said, when you first kicked it off, before we started recording, you asked for it. People who ask for that story. I regularly see yawns, but I'll try to make it as exciting as I can. I think it's noteworthy how I actually got into IT. For people who know and work with me, my dad was into early COBOL, and like late seventies, eighties, we always, from very early days had like an IBM XT or AT, or something. Some 8086 thing at our house that was just part of our life. 

So, when I went to college, I never dreamed that it was something interesting enough to study in school. I studied economics, because that's how uninteresting IT was that I thought economics was more interesting than it. I worked for a financial institution and got involved in operations there. Then, since I knew some stuff about computers, gravitated there, and the long story short is, the rest is history. Just every job after that, I got deeper and deeper into it until what I didn't think would be my career, now is the main part of it. 

But when I look at it, and look at my education and the things that interested me, it's really communicating, interacting with people, and some of my avocations that I think, do me the most service at work. Spend a lot of time writing emails, I find that having had training in the five-paragraph theme really helps you in any kind of corporate communication. 

Alex Cullimore: Just for the endurance of writing that much, or the structure? 

Joe Messina: Just clarity is important. Our one CIO told us, “If I have to scroll your email, I'm going to delete it.” 

Alex Cullimore: That's pretty reasonable. Over time, I've just probably have a shorter and shorter window and be like that, “Nope, that one sentence is too long.” 

Joe Messina: Big fan of the bullet points. 

Cristina Amigoni: Bullet points definitely help. So, which one did you like best now, IT a week or economics? Which one is more interesting? 

Joe Messina: I really like the people part of IT, and the way that it relates to the business. I think that's really exciting. Especially in our economy now, you know, it’s a great place to be, especially where I am now, having it mixed in with healthcare. I think that intersection is really a neat place to be in the market, an opportunity to have an impact. 

Alex Cullimore: I've heard that economics is one of the few disciplines where – I mean, it is its own specific discipline, but it's one of the few that encourages kind of cross-disciplinarian looks and looking at what the larger picture is, because you have to understand all these different influences that are kind of going on. How much has that been true for your experience, and how you relate that to things like connecting business in IT? 

Joe Messina: It gives you a really good model for looking at results and complex systems, and looking at data. What I've learned over the years is that, especially as an IT leader, we're leading humans, right? Or leading human people who are at work, and finding meaning in that, as a manager is kind of a superset of looking at the world, just in a utilitarian kind of way. I'm lucky enough to work for a company that is people-centered. 

So, in that case, we talk and hear talk, even our most senior managers about things like humility. It's not like this at every company. If you've ever worked at a place that's just about the bottom line are the numbers, you can go to work every day, feeling like, “I'm a cog in a wheel making money for someone who's richer than me.” In a people-centered organization, I think we try to get more out of people by looking at the whole person. 

I was thinking about this recently, because my youngest is in college, studying education. She recently wrote a paper on the place of humility in the teaching profession. Her thesis was that in most other careers or career paths or types of work, your success is based on results that you achieve for yourself or for the company. It’s a certification, a promotion, a bigger project, a profit margin. But in the case of a teacher, their success really, in helping a student toward human flourishing. To do that, the place of humility, humility is defined as putting yourself in a lower position. So, as someone who's serving a student, and making that your end game, knowing that the end results of that, never really come back to the teacher. It was a really, really neat take on that. When I think about that in relation to working where I do, I think that's really important. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, I love the theme of humility. It's always one of those buzzwords for leadership's like, got to be humble and humility. But then in practice, and you mentioned some of that is, if we're measured in the corporate world, in the workplace, by our individual achievements, then how do we integrate humility as leaders when it is all about helping others achieve. 

Joe Messina: Yes. Understanding the whole person is a part of that. If you have a person that can perform a routine task every single day, you can get – talking like an economist, you can get X output out of them. But if you look at the whole person and develop that, and untapped skills, and energies, where they otherwise wouldn't apply them to work, and with a healthy work-life balance, this people-centered organizations believes that it's not just a zero-sum game. You can get X plus 2 out of them and make them happier, right? 

I think those human connections, especially in the digital economy, are increasingly more important. Alex, you were commenting on decorations. Like, this is my feeble attempt at hospitality. Many, many hours of my day are spent on these types of meetings over a screen, and used to be able to welcome people to your office with a candy dish. Those days are gone for me, at least right now. So, this is my feeble attempt at welcoming you to my screen. 

Alex Cullimore: Those who are audio only. Joe has a nice set of Halloween decorations in his Zoom background. This is Zoom hospitality at its finest. 

Joe Messina: This is authentic too. It's not just a background screen. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It’s not a fake Zoom background. It’s actually on the wall.  

Alex Cullimore: I'm still living in a blurred-out void. So, things are going well. You mentioned a couple of interesting parts, like there's the idea of humility. And if you're the teacher, and you're serving this population, the rewards aren't necessarily coming directly back to you. You're intending to pass that on and you also mentioned finding some of that meaning and leading people as an IT leader. Can you talk a little bit more about what you personally find meaningful and enjoyable in this kind of work? 

Joe Messina: There's a lot of parallels with coaching and parenting, which are to other pursuits of mine that take a lot of my energy outside of work, expanding people's horizons, and helping them find joy in their careers and elsewhere, and being in touch with the parts of the job that I love so that I can help, maybe instill that in other people. One example that we were recently laughing about in my family. A friend of mine and I both grew up loving hiking and backpacking. 

So, we had daughters who are friends, and they were probably, I don't know, 11 or 12. We took them on the Appalachian Trail through Maryland, parts of Virginia, first big girl trip, right? Our purpose was to instill in them the joy of carrying everything you need on your back for multiple days and nights. And seeing the beauty of the trail, I mean, especially that part of the Appalachian Trail, it's very rich in history and little side excursions where you can go and see historic sights. If you do it at the right time of the year, it's just beautiful. Knowing that the real payback is to have girls who feel confident doing that, and can grow up, and share that with other people that they love. 

But one of the things we learned, and we talk about this, not only in the leadership training, but at work, our senior leaders are big on clarity. So, you need autonomy. You provide people with autonomy, but autonomy also needs to be partnered with clarity. The story goes, we got to that point in a long hike, where you're in the woods, and well, you have to use the facilities. So, the girls, they had been prepped for this and they were ready to go. Like they had the autonomy and we thought they had the instruction to do what they needed. So, I handed them the paper, and the little camp shovel, and sent them off to a private section of the woods. Just as before they disappeared into the brush, Sarah turned around and said, “So, how do we clean the shovel?” We’re like, “Come back, please. If you if you get poop on the shovel, you're doing it wrong. You had autonomy but not clarity.” So, we straightened out the instruction, and the long story short, they have spent many long hikes in the woods, and we're confident to know that they could always handle themselves. I apologize, Cristina. This is the first potty talk story you've had on your podcast. 

Cristina Amigoni: We've had worse. No apologies needed. It's a good question, though. 

Alex Cullimore: That's also a really visceral example for autonomy and clarity. It's a good one. 

Joe Messina: I've seen poop on a shovel situations at work a lot of times, and it's autonomy without clarity. That's the result you get. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's interesting, is how you pointed out, is that what's clear for you may not be clear for the others. And if there's safety, and in this case, it's psychological safety, the daughter is actually speaking up and asking the question, then there can be that, well, okay, is this what we intend? Because that's my version of the clarity here. Is it the same as your version of the clarity? And I think that's where the step is missed a lot in the workplace, and in life in general, is that like, we assume that because it's clear in our head, and it's clear in how we provided the instructions, that then it's universally clear. It's like capital C, clear for everybody. 

Joe Messina: Presuming that other people understand the thing that you understand is, goes hand in hand with the other side of having the courage, like you said, to ask the question. 

Alex Cullimore: We talked also about some of the incentive structures that go into. Actually, you're mentioning, like, we have so many incentive structures that tend to go back to individual performance. But of course, by the time you get to leadership, it's about what you are kind of getting out of the team and what you can do there. What incentive structures do you like or have you seen that you like that kind of encourage that thinking and getting into my reward is making the team successful? 

Joe Messina: As far as incentive for managers, I think finding people who are animated by that success, by default, is the homerun hit right there. When you find that person, just like a great player on the soccer field, it makes everybody else better, because they practice with them, and they pick up the habits, and they pick up the joy of being on the field. Then I say that from someone who's been a manager with great managers, and that probably is the single most impactful incentive is working with people who find that joy and seeing others succeed. That feeling, that core of teamwork is really something that's contagious. 

I recognize that because I've had the privilege of being coached by great coaches in various things, despite not really ever being good at anything. And having the opportunity to coach my kids in various things throughout the years. It's really been neat. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. It reminds me of a conversation I had with someone. I've heard this, and I used to believe this. Actually, I didn’t it, but I'll take that back. But it's a fairly common thing to hear, when people just believe like, “Oh, all jobs suck. There's just never going to be. That's just what job is. That's what work is about. It's about being miserable, and there's no way out.” And I have experienced the opposite, which is why I know that's not true. The role of the manager, the leader is huge in that, in allowing for that to not be the reality. 

Joe Messina: Oh, absolutely. I think an example that I could think of is, I coach cross country and track with a friend of mine, who is a fabulous coach. And the age group of this kids is first grade through eighth grade. So, it's a mix of running through the woods in the fall, herding up kids to run, right? You talk about all jobs stink, well, every other sport they've ever played running is their punishment, and we're trying to get them to go out there and do it, and have it be fun. And he has developed just this knack of making the joy of being out in the woods and running around contagious. That includes in the local park, they'll run the ski slopes, first, second, third graders at the end of practice for a starburst candy. It's just the little wee square. They're convinced that it's worth it and they'll do it because it's contagious. 

He understands the whole person. We were prepping up for like a three or four-mile run one evening, because it was mostly older kids, and just as we're getting ready to go, this little first-grade girl shows up. And Bill says, “No worries, we got this. Mary Jane's legs are powered by her mouth. If I can keep her talking, she'll do four miles and won't even realize it.” And he was right. So, that's the coaching aspect, to understand the whole person to get them to do things that maybe even they didn't think they could do or, God forbid, could even do and enjoy. I think, to take that to the workplace, it's a powerful tool. 

Alex Cullimore: Some of that accessing that on personal choice is super important. So, it helps a lot to have like a coach to have, or some similar figure that can reflect that and see that in you, or help create the situations for you. But to your point, Cristina, there's a lot of – or there used to be particularly a huge amount of work shouldn't be enjoyable. Not only should like, is it not important, that it is? It should actually almost actively be painful. I remember talking to this guy who he switched careers in his mid-30s, but spent decades feeling guilty. He switched to being an archery coach, which he absolutely loved. He loved every piece of it. He got to travel and got to work with all kinds of people that were training for the Olympics and he loved it, that he felt really guilty because he'd always been told, like work is not supposed to be fun. So, you end up with that side guilt. 

Then there's this kind of insidious thing now where it's like, well, work doesn't have to be fun. So, then it is almost like, it gives a pass to like, well, it can be pretty miserable. And both of these miss the idea that like, what if you did create joy? What if a starburst is what works? What if being able just to talk is what works? What if that's fine, you get to both be productive, and enjoy it, and not see these as opposite ends of the spectrum? 

Joe Messina: Yeah, I agree with that. And there's a fine line between motivation, cajoling, and downright deception, right? I think, in life, and in work, there are things that you wouldn't undertake if you knew all the consequences about them. Being challenged at work by a good manager gets you into things that you end up finding so rewarding, but you never would have thought, “Boy, I could do that.” Or, “I would want to do that.” Seeing those results turn out well, it's a real joy at work. 

Cristina Amigoni: Definitely, yes. 

Alex Cullimore: Turn that around to yourself, or places you're working on, or diving into challenges that you feel like, “I'm not sure if I can do that,” or, “I'm taking on something that seems like a stretch.” 

Joe Messina: At my last job, one instance where I felt like I kind of was tricked into something is waiting around for a big project that would be just mine. And I was waiting to find out how I would be prepared for it. And one day, my boss just gave it to me. He said, “Well, to do this project, you need A, B, and C. In the last six months, you've demonstrated that in other projects that I gave you to kind of test you, so you're ready.” And just his faith that he had already seen me demonstrate what I needed to do to succeed at a larger scale, was the confidence that I needed to do something I probably never would have dove into myself. So, I appreciated that as good coaching. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great story. 

Joe Messina: I think about a coach often doesn't tell you explicitly what to do. There is always like an oblique angle that he's giving you the instruction that you need. A good swim coach won't just say, “Do it like Michael Phelps or Katie Ledecky Linda”, right? They have a special way that they pull the most water to go fast. But a coach won't just say, “Pull more water all the time.” They'll say, “Grab the water out front, or point your fingers to the ground”, or things that don't make sense to anybody but a swimmer. Like, “Use soft hands on your fly”, right? These kinds of – it's kind of getting you to do something intuitively, without explicitly hammering it into you. That's why, I think, as a coach or teacher, you're not just dumping raw knowledge into someone to get them to produce more. You're preparing them to be autonomous and make decisions and be productive and fulfilled. When both of those things happen, that's what makes being a leader fun. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. That's so true. And you refer to your, the great leaders and managers you've had in the past as coaches quite a bit. As you know, we have a whole day dedicated to coaching skills, in the training you're in. How do you see the role of coaching being important as a leader, or play in the role as a leader? 

Joe Messina: I think it's important, like we said, understanding the whole person. To use coaching as kind of an analogy, every player or participant needs to have a basic mastery of skills, and understanding what the skills are in that person is very important for a coach, not only to know where they fit in, in the team, but which skills you need to develop. That goes for weaknesses as well as strengths. If you have Pele on your soccer team, you need to expose people to him, to stay out of his way, so that he does the mastery that he does. So, the coach needs to understand each player as an individual in order to get them to work together the best that they can as a team. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's true. When you think about leading teams and leading people with making sure the incentives and coaching, and seeing the whole person, in your experience, what have you seen happens when you don't consider the whole person? When it is just about, “Here's the task list, just get your job down, be miserable, and come back tomorrow, and do it all over again.” 

Joe Messina: When you see people, who feel like they have nowhere to go, they're overwhelmed every day, they say that they're unappreciative, and they start looking around at what other people are doing or getting, instead of finding fulfillment and completing their own job, then you know you're probably doing that. You're doing a bad job coaching when that exists. So, keep an eye out for that. In my experience, that's a great indicator that that's not the way to go. 

Alex Cullimore: That goes well with what you're talking about, with finding some of those personal incentives, like what matters to them, what will they get joy out of, and move to, as well as what skills might they need to develop. Sounds like when you start to see them seeing things externally, rather than feeling that internally, or what they could be doing, and what they enjoy about this, but are instead looking at like, what are other people are getting? Or what am I not getting? That's a big differentiator, if that makes sense, just from a pure human motivation standpoint, we kind of respond much better to what inherently makes sense to us. The second we start to look outside, we're losing touch with that personal feeling, at which point it's going to be harder as a manager too, to figure it out, to your Pele analogy, where are your skills? Where do you fit in? What are your frustrations? 

Joe Messina: Yes. And where can you go outside your comfort zone to get better, I think happens best when people understand buy into, and are convicted by a strategy or mission. If every person in the company doesn't understand that, doesn't care about it, or doesn't see the results of that in their daily life and work, you don't get that full person at work.  

Alex Cullimore: Somewhat goofy example. I recently signed up for an adult kickball league, which we don't have a coach, we don't have anything. We’re just 11 random people who, through friends of friends got put together on a field. And there's definitely totally different motivations, right? I mean, we just joined, because we wanted to have something to do and kind of meet some people in the community. And we are not, as any of our games will show, good at kickball. So, it's not the skill that's there. And even though it's fun to win, we didn't go in there with that motivation, and there are definitely a couple of people in the team who I think are very much about trying to win that. 

So, you have these two different competing visions, and it has caused just kind of – it is not like disagreement or anger or whatever. It's just a mild chaos and we're not super effective as a team, also, because we don't really know each other that well. This is like week two, so it's not going well in a number of fronts. But that alignment on mission is also completely different, because we think it as a sport, like we can get aligned around the winning, but this is a recreational league. It's just randomly after work. So, a lot of it is half of the people are incentivized by getting together socializing and having a group. Half the people are incentivized by going to be a kickball star, and it doesn't really mesh well. 

Joe Messina: Yes, that's true. And that is a recipe for infighting as well. 

Alex Cullimore: If I get in a fistfight this season, I'll let you guys know. 

Cristina Amigoni: Is that what kickball is about, fist fights? 

Alex Cullimore: No, it's about kickboxing. 

Cristina Amigoni: As long as you're kicking, it falls into the theme. 

Alex Cullimore: It's interesting, you mentioned though, just that alignment on the overall strategy, as well as finding people's individual things you talked about. In your swimming analogy, you're talking about things like getting people to intuitively understand what has to happen, which I think is a much more delicate way of doing it, and it can be very easy to fall into the idea of like, “Look, we just need to get this thing done.” Or from my point of view, you just need this scale. Why don't you just do this? Just scoop the water. Just push more water. Okay, but what part of the stroke is not pushing? That's really important to understand for any person, and that's where I think, sometimes people can get trapped by the urgency that we honestly sometimes just create for ourselves in the workplace, and not feel like we have the time to help somebody intuitively understand, this will be a much more sustainable growth if I help you where you need it or how you need it, rather than just what I see on the abstract needs to be done. 

Joe Messina: Yes. I think, a good leader or coaches role is to help disseminate that strategy in pieces for the team to accomplish as they're going. You can be very easily disengaged, disconcerted, or left behind with – it's January 1st, we're going to make 30% growth this year. What does that mean to anybody? You need to boil that down into what tangible things that we care about today that we can accomplish, celebrate, and then expand our scope to encompass more and more of the vision until we're all on the same page, right? Making those milestones and pieces for the team to understand they've got a path, rather than looking at the end state that seems so far away, and unattainable can just paralyze you on your day-to-day life, right? Having both the strategic vision and the end state in mind, but being able to boil it down for the team into chunks is a really important part of making it happen. 

Cristina Amigoni: It definitely is. I love how you bring up celebration along the way. I actually recently had another conversation. I have a lot of conversations, it's good thing we do this for a living. Another conversation on how to balance the celebrating when you accomplish something without making it seem like the work is done, or that there's no more improvement. So, it's an interesting dichotomy in a way of thinking like, well, if I celebrate my team for what they've done, what if they perceive it as there was no other way to do it better? And there's no improvement? This is it. It's the end of the line. And yet, we know and we practice the fact that celebrating the process, celebrating every step is important for that motivation to know that we are on the right track, and we can keep going. What have you seen is that balance between like, “Oh, we're done, we're perfect.” And, “No, no. We still need to celebrate, somehow, along the way.” 

Joe Messina: Yes. Like, you don't have the end-of-the-year banquet after the second game. You might have an endzone dance, but you don't finish it off. I think that is a balance, and it's something that we all often overlook just recently, it doesn't have to be a huge celebration. It can just be the recognition from your manager that you did something good, or that you made a milestone, to the point that you forget about it. Just recently, we had a small critical failure, and when we got together as a team to talk about it, I passed down to the team that our senior leader noticed that we even had one of these in like eight months. So, this one wasn't that big of a deal. We addressed it. But let's celebrate the fact that we're not in here every week. So, just that recognition from somebody who's noticing and caring can be very meaningful. 

Alex Cullimore: That feels like that to economics that you're talking about, seeing the bigger picture and the complex system, when you talk about like that end result of, “Hey, we're going to have 30% growth.” Or, “Hey, here's a critical incident.” But seeing the bigger picture is not only the future then looking at the past and seeing some of that progress. You noted that with that manager that that gave you the project, you felt like you weren't ready for, had already noted there were parts of your history that showed you were ready for this, and then that gave you that confidence. 

Getting that holistic picture of both past and future and looking at the complex system, not in terms of like, what are the shortest paths to the outcome, but what is the actual scaffolding we need to get to the outcome we're looking for? Because getting 30% growth doesn't happen because you did exact cost-cutting. It happens because you put in a system that rewards enough of the right behaviors that in the end, you end up with 30% growth or 30% increase. And having that view is hard, I think for a lot of people, and then sometimes is easy to forget. It's the second we put goals and measures up. Suddenly, that's all we're focusing on, rather than like, well, what do I need to do even it meant slowing down now or putting some support in place so that we can actually get to where we need to go, not just facing that, and marching forward on a sprained ankle. 

Joe Messina: True. When you talk about goals and measures, you have to be very careful what you measure and incent upon because people will do that thing for good or ill, and to have a truly high-functioning team, you have to constantly reinforce the letter of the law as subordinate to the spirit of the law. If it stopped supporting the larger strategy, then maybe we need to adjust our KPIs and start working towards something different. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, very true. What we measured and how the clarity, like going back to clarity, the clarity of that. Are we all on the same page of what we mean by this KPI, by this measure, and how we get there. 

Alex Cullimore: I was struck by that. I went to an event recently that was for B Corp. So, they have a whole scoring mechanism for B Corp. You have to get over like 80 points or something to even be certified as a B Corp, and here's the different disciplines you have to do that in. And it strikes me as a place where like, well the incentive is there, the whole point is to be more planet people and profit-based business, rather than just profit, or just, in one angle or another, having like a real purpose driving all of this. They so they put metrics to it, and so I wonder how much effort it takes to continue to update all those KPIs so that it's not just a game of like, okay, well, we can show that we have this kind of carbon footprint or footprint reduction based on something that may or may not actually be reducing carbon. It's just how its measured. The danger then becomes like, “Okay, well, we're playing on that incentive rather than playing towards we just want less greenhouse gases or whatever it is.” 

Joe Messina: Yes, absolutely. You have to be careful. 

Cristina Amigoni: So, at the beginning, we talked about humility, and how important it is. How do you show humility as a leader? 

Joe Messina: Well, I can tell you how I've seen good managers that I've worked for show humility. And, I guess, humility is defined as putting yourself in a lower spot, and that manifests itself at work in a number of ways, usually, by whether they realize it or not, elevating other people. A humble manager doesn't ever feel like they have to tear down, appear to make themselves seem more legitimate, or are smarter, or have more credibility. They hold up the people of their team, like we talked about already, recognize them as humans, and all the different aspects that come along with that, and develop their strengths and weaknesses as they see them. I think, the authentic, humble leader, has a team that knows that they've got their back. I've worked for people who were only in it for themselves and it's a crushing, hard way to go to work every day, and it's almost imperceptible, that when you have a humble leader, because you realize that you're engaged with your work, and you like it better, and that you'd follow that humble leader, anywhere that they would lead you. I've been lucky to work for people who have elicited that response from me. 

Alex Cullimore: That's a great way to describe it. It sounds like there's two big halves of that. There's kind of the actively holding up other people and making sure you're supporting them. You have their back, you're giving them opportunities, as well as some of that almost more, maybe passive is the wrong word. But in my mind, that was the first dichotomy, I kind of split on that passive, like, not feeling the ego need to put somebody else down, or be better than, or just being able to hold yourself back enough not to feel like you jump on the first insecurity that might pop up, but still see the bigger picture and be like, “Okay, well, I don't need to tear this person down. I need to build this.” Or, “It's okay that they did that or not feel like it's a zero-sum game.” So, there's a whole bunch of internal work, as well as external active support that you can do to go exude, even if it's not super noticeable and less perceptible, or not immediately tangible, some of that humility that gets people, that inspiration to follow. 

Joe Messina: Yes. I like the word exude. I think, a humble leader makes the people around them shine, look better, and it's always light refracted through them, or reflected off of them onto another person or team or project that their good qualities are really shining onto other people, and not just bringing attention to themselves and I'm lucky to feel that in the workplace where I am now. 

Alex Cullimore: So, if you were to look back at yourself, as a younger leader, or as any young leader, what are some advice you'd want to give yourself, or things you wish you'd known? 

Joe Messina: I think the older I get, the less I'm confident that I have all the pieces or know everything. I think at the beginning of my career, I was even more than now, much more apt to be critical of anything at work. Like, why is the coffee machine here? Why aren't we doing this? Why isn't our healthcare better? Why didn't we buy this company? Why didn't we put out this product? I thought that I had all the answers, and I realized now, it's so few pieces of the overall puzzle. And that trusting the leaders that have more of those pieces, in the good ones who trust lower levels of management and workers to pass up information, that they otherwise wouldn't have access to, so that they can be a highly functioning team is really the most effective way to get things done as a company. And that I think the advice for a younger leader or a younger me would be talk it through. Have the courage to take your ideas up the chain so that people can either tell you, you don't have the whole picture, and that's fine. 

Stay in your lane is an acceptable answer sometimes, or they can hear you out and do something better for the company, because that up and down in cross path for information and feedback is really necessary, and the more that you can be a part of that, and be realistic about how much of that that you actually have, then the better off you'll be. I think, something we don't, for all this talk of humility and autonomy and servant leadership, we don't like to use the word obedience. We don't like to talk about that at work. But if you have a virtuous manager, who has a strategy that you're on board with, there's really no reason not to exhibit obedience. Sometimes it's a very appropriate response. I probably could have done better at that over the years. 

Cristina Amigoni: That's a great self-reflection and great advice that probably most people need when they're younger. But yes, I think what you pointed out there, is that it's also a two-way street. It's the younger selves knowing that there's a lot more than we don't know. And it's also the senior self, knowing that there's a lot that we don't know. So, having that humility of, I'm not in the weeds, I am not the one doing this job. If I come in with a question, a change of strategy, then do I actually have the level of understanding of the impact, all the way to all the corners of the organization of that? No, I don't. The only way I can gather that is by asking and having the open conversation, and inviting people to come and share what they think because there's no way I can have any understanding of the impact in every single person, on every single corner. 

Joe Messina: Yes. And just the act of going and soliciting that information, offering that information, apologizing when you make a mistake, builds trust in pathways in the organization that otherwise wouldn't be there and make it more and more highly functioning. 

Alex Cullimore: One of the many things that I do not know is who said this quote, but at some point, I remember a quote that was something like, “The more I know, the more I know I don’t. The more you gain, the more you understand things, the more you understand the way that understanding is lacking.” I think that helps. Sometimes, that needs to – give all the answers can be a dead giveaway for I don't think this person has all the answers. 

Joe Messina: Yes. Having teenage girls really helped me understand how dumb I really am. 

Alex Cullimore: Another way to practice humility. 

Joe Messina: Yes. It seemed like I was reminded every day there for a while many years. 

Cristina Amigoni: That is good. Yes. That would definitely make it an experience of humility. You mentioned authenticity a little bit as part of humility, and that's the theme of our podcast. So, what does authenticity mean to you? 

Joe Messina: Knowing you're going to ask that question, there's a couple of ways I could have gone about this. One would be writing it down and thinking about it first. But I've listened to some of, if not all of your podcasts, and authenticity is being real, genuine, legitimate. It may have been put by one of your podcasts already. So, I won't say this was original. But it resolves the question, am I being manipulated? 

So, someone who's authentic, whatever they're giving you, you know that it's altruistic. That's so, so important at work. I think Whigs put it very well in the podcast that he did, and I think Ryan and Kyle, that authenticity doesn't mean just being yourself at work. Because it can mean being a self, that is my work self, where I'm acting in bounds of the professional environment, and maybe carrying myself differently than I do at home. 

Actually, my kids have a joke, “Don't call dad. He'll give you his work voice if he's in there at work.” They don't like the work voice. It's not the dad voice. It's not that there's a different me, it's that I'm acting within the bounds of what's expected of me in that situation. But you can still be authentic, and legitimate, and genuine, non-manipulative, I think. 

Cristina Amigoni: I'm not going to pretend to remember the exact words that were used in every single one of the definitions we’ve had from guests. But I do not remember the manipulation piece, which I really like that. You don't feel manipulated, when somebody is being authentic. That's a big piece. 

Alex Cullimore: And you're being authentic when you do feel manipulated, or too pushed by other influences. You know that's coming from that really true portion of yourself. I don't think you'd describe it well. There are different arenas, but you can still be authentic to your purpose in those arenas. There might be – you might have a purpose at work, and that just can feel like a different demeanor. But it's not the same as being a different person, if you're still true to that lack of manipulation. 

Joe Messina: We'll go with that. I like it, Alex. 

Cristina Amigoni: All right. So, where can people find you, should they want to? Should you want them to find you? 

Joe Messina: I don't do a lot of that. They can always get me at joemessina@gmail.com. 

Alex Cullimore: Well, thank you so much for joining, Joe. And thanks for talking through all these things. It's really just fun to pick your brain and we appreciate you taking the time to do this with us. It's always a joy. 

Joe Messina: It was fun. I appreciate you having me. Thanks very much. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you so much for taking the time. 

[OUTRO] 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human, a Siamo podcast.  

Alex Cullimore: Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara; and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood.  

Cristina Amigoni: If you have enjoyed this episode, please share, review and subscribe. You can find our episodes wherever you listen to podcasts.  

Alex Cullimore: We would love to hear from you with feedback, topic ideas or questions. You can reach us at podcast@wearesiamo.com, or at our website, wearesiamo.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook. We Are Siamo is spelled W-E A-R-E S-I-A-M-O. 

Cristina Amigoni: Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always uncover the human. 

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