What Does Avoiding Conflict Really Cost You?

"Alex Cullimore: We are built on a lot of our past experiences. The thing is the same way you can weight some experiences over others, we tend to, by default, weight negative experiences more."

Alex Cullimore: Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today, it's just Cristina and I. And we are here to talk about conflict. Because why not? It seems important today. 

Cristina Amigoni: Because we live in such a peaceful time right now, everywhere around us, that it's not something that's coming up at all. 

Alex Cullimore: I know that nobody has this happening anywhere in their lives. So, we thought we'd mention it like this.

Cristina Amigoni: No. Internally or externally. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. Prepare yourself for one day when it's not peaceful and calm like it is now. 

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed. Well, where do we start? 

Alex Cullimore: First of all, why is conflict important? Open-ended question. Why is it? 

Cristina Amigoni: Why does conflict exist? And did Plato or Socrates write a book about whether why conflict exists? Maybe we can dig back into that. 

Alex Cullimore: It's like something a philosophy major would know. And I don't remember that. 

Cristina Amigoni: And I was a major, but I didn't pay attention. 

Alex Cullimore: What do you think? I did the reading. 

Cristina Amigoni: Or maybe I avoided complexity, so I just skipped that chapter. 

Alex Cullimore: This is going to conflict with my mind if I read this. Yeah. I think that one thing to think about is the fact – it's a quote that we've referred to a couple times, but one that I enjoy. And I don't actually know who said it, but it's a thing, like, "If two people agree on everything, at least one of them is lying." 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. I would say probably both of them are lying internally. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, a good chance both are lying. 

Cristina Amigoni: The other one is lying, too. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah. And so what does that mean about conflict? It means that we all have kind of our individual preferences, thoughts, ideas, experiences, and everything that we bring into every interaction we ever have. And so that means that we have a totally unique fingerprints. It's going to be a little bit different than everybody else. So if there's not some amount of disagreement/"conflict" in that, then somebody is lying about it. Our total authentic selves are going to be as unique as our fingerprint. Conflict is essentially inevitable in that way. Everybody's a little bit different. 

Cristina Amigoni: Indeed. And also, the interesting part about conflict is that it's inevitable. It's all the time, internally and externally, whether we label it conflict or not. We're experiencing some form of it all the time, unless we're lying all the time. And then internally, we're experiencing the conflict. Our own consciousness is not keeping up with the mind trying to lie to itself. 

But what's interesting is that there's such a big heavy weight even in the word of conflict. And so there's a lot of just emotions, driven reactions around it. Avoidance is a big one. Almost expectation that there will be negative consequences to being in conflict. And so that's where I think a lot of the reactions, the way we show up, the lying, there's no conflict, one person is lying. I think that's where it comes in because we have this like pre-script, pre-story of like, "Oh my god, it's going to be so bad if we let that out." And so it's constantly like just jamming this genie in the bottle and like keeping it there as much as possible. 

Alex Cullimore: I agree with that. But I think that we have so much modeling of how conflict has happened for us or happened to us that we have a backlog of experiences that tells us to be pretty cautious when it comes to stepping into conflict. Which is an interesting point then. We should define conflict, because conflict is really – I think we almost exclusively think of conflict in that feeling of discomfort. Because, really, you could have any conversation. You could have a "disagreement". You could have a debate with a close friend where you have very different viewpoints, and it could actually not feel like conflict. It could feel like just a conversation. 

Conflict really ends up, I think, having that emotional charge almost by definition because we think of conflict only in the times that are difficult, the things that are emotionally charged, the things that we don't feel comfortable approaching. 

Cristina Amigoni: I like that. Actually, I thought about it. The way you said it made me realize that we put so much emotion into conflict. It's almost like conflict is the emotion of what we expect to happen if there may be disagreement. You may say no to something, or you may say yes to something. And so, it's the emotional charged part. Because like you said, we could have a conversation where we don't agree, and we may not label it conflict. But the conflict is like, "Oh. If I say no, there's going to be a conflict. So, I better say yes." 

Alex Cullimore: Or I feel like I can't say anything, or I feel like whatever the other options are. I have to agree. Or "Oh, man. I better gear up for a real fight, because this is going to be a knockdown, drag down. Let's get through this. It's going to be brutal." And it's not to say there aren't very emotionally charged conversations or that they shouldn't be. It's just that I think is where we end up defining conflict mostly, in our minds, is the thing that we are basically procrastinating on because we're worried about the emotional reaction of it. Both internally and externally. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. We're worried about the guilt, the fear, the disappointment, the shame, all those emotions that we try to avoid that we're going to experience anyway. Because if we don't experience it because of the actual conversation, the actual interaction, we experience it internally. And also, they're all emotions that we may not experience at all. 

When I was thinking about the topic of conflict this morning before we started recording, and I thought about how we have that expectation about saying no, how saying no. It's like, "Oh, that's going to turn into conflict, so I better say yes all the time." Like I said, like I better be lying and say yes when I really want to say no because of the conflict that could arise that I don't even know if it is. 

We don't have a crystal ball. We don't even know if it's going to happen or not, but we make the assumption that it probably will. And so we say yes, or we say I don't know, whatever. We avoid or we give a silence. But saying no, I think it's one of the most common ways to keep the conflict, the potential conflict the genie in the bottle. We don't want to do that for many, many reasons. 

I was thinking about this morning this example, and it came up because one of our clients recently wrote a recommendation on my LinkedIn. And he actually pointed out how – I can't remember the words, but they're actually perfect. And I wish I had read them. But he pointed out how I welcome conflict directly, and I just go into it. And the funny thing is that I can't think of a single time in our interaction with our clients, where I would actually classify as conflict that I welcomed and walked into. 

But that's what made me realize, I'm like, "Oh, wow." We all have our own idea of what a conflict situation is. And I can't think of a single one for this specific interaction. But then I thought about this when I was 20, this other example. There's another story. When I was 20, I was in my summer work camp, and I was program director for a leadership program for teens. 

Alex Cullimore: Yeah, it's working at a summer camp, not a summer work camp. Otherwise, it sounds like you were a prisoner. 

Cristina Amigoni: Sorry. Yeah. Working. Yeah. Sorry. Working at a summer camp with kids. Not a concentration camp. Summer camp for kids. That was my work for the summer. I was organizing this leadership training program for older teens. And we had different specialists that had to run the activities. And the owner of the organization, very big organization, I sort of knew him. Had met him. He sort of knew me. We didn't have a close relationship at that point, but an interaction. But he also ran a special leadership program for college-aged students that happened at any point in the summer. 

And he was used to just coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm going to take this specialist, and that specialist, and that specialist." And then the rest of the camp, which had like 200 kids, would have to kind of scramble to fill the holes. Because this usually didn't happen in an organized, advanced notice way. 

And so this summer, this particular summer, one of my first jobs, my first sort of "real job." Roger, wonderful man. Roger called. It was like 10 o'clock at night. Called, and was like, "Hey, Cristina, I'm going to need Paul, your climbing specialist, tomorrow all day." This is 10 o'clock at night." And my answer was, "No, Paul is committed with five different groups tomorrow. And there's no way, at 10:00 at night, I can figure out how to rework all the groups to do something else. So, no. We can look at maybe Paul the next day, or the following day, or in a couple of days. But let's look at what you're trying to do with your group of 20 versus the group of 200 over here. And let's figure out where we can spare Paul or move him around, and other specialists, and what you need, so that we have an advanced understanding of what you need, and we can work around it." And that was fine. He was like, "Yep, got it." And I'm like, "Okay, what else can you do tomorrow?" He's like, "Oh, we'll do something else. And then if you can spare Paul on Wednesday, that works great." I'm like, "Awesome." 

I put the phone down. And I have these like four – I think it was like three or four other men around me who have worked for this organization for many, many years, are older than me. From my director, to the business director, to the travel director, to somebody else. And their jaw down to the floor. I look at them, and they're all silent, and they're like, "What did you do?" And I'm like, "I don't know. What did I do?" And they said like, "You said no to Roger. Nobody says no to Roger." And I'm like, "Why not?" "Because he's the owner of the company. Whatever Roger asks, Roger gets." And I'm like, "But this inconveniences 200 kids and 80 staff member at 10:00 at night." I'm like, "It doesn't make any sense to not say no." And like, "But that doesn't happen." I'm like, "Okay." And they're like, "What happened?" I'm like, "He said okay." And like, "He said okay?" "Yes. I explained the problem. I gave him a potential solution so that we can work this out for the next two weeks, and he was okay." 

And the funny thing is that after that, Roger definitely knew who I was. He came to me every single time he had a request. And whenever he started running this program in Spain instead of Switzerland, he used to call me in May every single year, said like, "Are you coming to Spain? Are you coming to Spain? Are you coming? Can you please come to Spain?" Whatever catastrophe people had in their heads about saying no to Roger causes this never happened. 

Alex Cullimore: Mm-hmm. It's in fact actually much better. 

Cristina Amigoni : Yes. It was much better for everybody. But there's like this idea of you can't say no because then it's going to cause conflict, and we don't know what the consequences are. 

Alex Cullimore: This is something I see in the workplace a lot, and we've seen multiple times. I think it comes from a lot of conditioning, from school, to parenting, to workplace. There's this feeling that if somebody has the "power in the room", basically you can't have conflict with them. They just have something they say, and you better figure out how to make it happen. 

And there are certainly lots of, I'll call them bosses, not leaders, that have done that, that I've watched do that, that will just kind of demand that. Like, "Well, I've said this. That's what should happen." And we get this feeling, "Oh, I can't say no to things because we're constantly kind of evaluating the power dynamic, and deciding, 'Oh. Well, then that means I can't say no." Because even if we have somebody who's open to it, your boss was open to it, but people were used to not challenging that. Used to feeling like, "Oh, if it's a boss we just do whatever." And so he says jump, we jump. And that's it. And it doesn't matter if your head's right below a flame, whatever it is. You just jump. 

It's so, I think, ingrained that people don't feel like they can push back against that. And humans are very, very aware of status and social status, and the second we associate that to the ability to have conflict. And we've seen this in the workplace too when peers have a really hard time having conflict. Then there's, "Oh. Well, whoever wins this kind of ends up having a little bit of power over it or feels like there's a shift in the dynamic." And suddenly, there's way more at stake. So, it's better not to even just question this. And it's so much harder to step into because it's ambiguous who will have the say. And what if you lose? And whatever else. All of these thoughts tend to pop into our heads because we're so status-driven as species. And it's an understandable reflex because that's how we are. And we should be aware of it. But it doesn't mean that we should live our lives exclusively at the fear of that. 

Cristina Amigoni: Exactly. Not to say, as you said, yes, there's probably a conditioning and experiences that we all carry where it did go badly for us when we said no. It did go badly when we spoke up. It did go badly when we didn't agree. And so, we carry that. And I don't want to have that experience again. I don't want to have that emotion again. I don't want to go down that path again. It's not to say that every single time you say no, it turns out to be a wonderful thing and a wonderful memory that you can talk about on a podcast. 

Alex Cullimore: Cherish forever. 

Cristina Amigoni: Again, what does it cost to avoid even saying no, or asking, or whatever the other avoidance and ways that we relate to conflict are? Because we're afraid of what could maybe possibly happen if it happens exactly how it happened with somebody else in a completely different situation at a completely different time for a completely different request. 

Alex Cullimore: I think that hits the nail on the head. We have that carrying weight of this, and it is so much easier. And I like that question. What's it going to cost not to say no? If you don't have the conflict, what is it costing you? And that's the question we don't tend to ask because the first thing that's in our mind is all of the emotions that we think are about to happen, and that we are now in a state of trying to avoid, or trying to manage, or trying to get past somehow. Trying to avoid the blowup, the bad emotions, the fight, whatever it is that we are avoiding. That is so much more powerful immediate motivator that it takes a literal moment where you should give yourself a breath so that you can ask exactly that question. What is this going to cost if I don't have this conflict? 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. What will it cost? 

Alex Cullimore: And often, you'll end up having some more sleepless nights. You'll end up trying to rearrange 200 kids because your climbing instructor is gone. Whatever the consequence is. It could be very immediate. It could be much more long-term. It could feel like now I will have a harder time saying no next time will be another thing that's going to come up. There's a lot of reasons that that conflict will have a negative consequence that's much larger if it's avoided. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah. One of the things that I've noticed that maybe it's because I'm seeing as somebody that walks comfortably directly into conflict is that there's two things that I've seen happen when that's what it costs me when I avoid it. One is I start losing trust in the avoiding the potential conflict. Because, again, I don't know if it's going to be a conflict or not. But I'm avoiding the potential conflict. I stop losing trust. That is a very difficult thing to rebuild if it's possible at all. I still the debate in my head is still out on whether once trust is lost, it can actually be rebuilt at all. And that's externally. 

Then the entire dynamic now changes with not only that person, if it's one person or group, but with anybody else. Because now it turns into hypervigilance in every relationship of like, "Well, if I can't trust this person because of this potential conflict, then maybe the next situation that's somewhat maybe 1% similar could be the same. Maybe I can't trust that person either." 

A lot of times, we bring so much baggage to conflict, to potential conflict and situations that they have even nothing to do with the one person that we're avoiding it, or walking around it, or doing whatever we're trying to being nice about it. It has something to do with somebody else in a completely different situation. And so that's the external piece. It's like now I'm walking around by not trusting anything and anyone around me. And chipping away that trust, which makes for a pretty tough life if you don't trust people that you can trust. And they haven't demonstrated that you cannot trust them. 

And internally, it's that integrity of values. It's like, now, internally, it's just kind of like what am I chipping away at because I'm trying to avoid a potential conflict situation? Am I chipping away at my own confidence? Am I chipping away at the way I look at myself? Am I chipping away at what I'm going to be able to do, the value I want to provide? What am I chipping away at internally? And that's where the sleepless nights come in. That's where the stress comes in, where the anxiety, where the health issues come in. It manifests in so many different ways. 

Alex Cullimore: I think it's a great way. That makes me think that we were just talking about how there's a lot of emotion that we are worried about and feel a lot when we're trying to avoid conflict. But it sounds you've kind of turned that on its head, and you're aware of the flip side, which is, "If I avoid this, here's the bad feelings." And it's actually easier to consider, "I'm going to avoid those bad feelings," rather than trying to avoid the bad feelings of the initial conversation. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes. Yeah. We're still avoiding bad feelings. 

Alex Cullimore: As long as you can scare yourself more on one side, you can get back to the other. 

Cristina Amigoni: It truly is. It's the devil you know. It's better than the devil you don't know. I know how to let myself down, but do I want to risk letting somebody else's down by saying no? 

Alex Cullimore: No, that's an interesting one. And I do think there is some power to that idea of understanding the power of the demon that will arrive on the other side. I always joke about how I clean my house a lot more right before I have to get some writing done. And it really is because getting the table cleared off right now doesn't seem that important. Right up until I need to sit at a blank page and write a paragraph, and I'm like, "You know what? That table really has to be taken care of." Now I'm going to go avoid that other feeling a little harder, and it's going to drive me to whatever that is. I think something wise if kind of funny and a little bit awry about the idea that if you can just scare yourself more about avoiding conflict, you're going to find it a lot easier to step into conflict. 

Cristina Amigoni: I think I might have heard it in a podcast. It's actually a very clear human condition is that we spend most of our energy trying to avoid the worst feeling. Most of our lives is spent avoiding bad feelings. And so, we're constantly calibrating which is the worst one that I don't want to feel. 

Alex Cullimore: This is so tragically and easily anecdotally true. This is one of those moments where you remind yourself that we're all humans, and that sometimes comes with some disappointing findings.

Cristina Amigoni: I can't remember where I heard it or read it, but it was definitely backed by data. So, it wasn't just made up by me. Even if it's been made up by me, if it resonates, take it. 

Alex Cullimore: Somebody go find that study and send it to us. But also, it just anecdotally feels very true, and I can definitely relate to these two options. It's like that old saying, "If I have to eat two frogs, I'm going to eat the bigger one first." And that's a good way of like approaching things. But our minds are set to be like, "Oh god, this is going to be horrible to eat a frog. Let's just get rid of the smaller one because it sounds even worse to eat the bigger one." And then you got a big one facing you, and you're like, "Oh, it's going to be even worse." 

So, there is something to be said for turning that on its head, but it is going to take a good amount of intentional effort. And it's okay for that to give yourself some grace if you're going to go step into that, if you're going to go jump into that intentional effort. It's not going to be easy. It's not going to happen right the first way off. It'll just be how it is. And that's okay. Give yourself a little space to try something and turn this on its head, and create more negative feelings in one direction so that you could push yourself to the thing you know you should be doing. 

Cristina Amigoni: It's interesting though, because it is a muscle. And the more you exercise, the easier it gets. It's still not going to be easy. It's like somebody running marathons. You're not going to run a marathon eventually if you keep running marathons and say, "Oh, I didn't even sweat in this one. It was so easy. I'll just keep running. I did the 26 miles." It's like, "Why stop now?" Not that it's actually going to feel easier, but it does feel easier at the same time. Running marathons, when you've been running marathons, it gets easier and easier and easier. You know how to train. You know what to expect. All of those things are still part of it. It's still going to be physically difficult. You're still going to struggle with like, "Oh yeah, my ankle now hurts, and this. And now it's too hot." And all those other things. But it does get easier, more familiar, more comfortable. You're willing to actually go through it because you know what's on the other side of what could potentially be on the other side. 

And so, when it comes to conflict, part of the muscle is not only to just keep doing it. Keep saying no. Get used to saying no. Get used to having that hard conversation. Get used to reaching out and asking for help. Whatever you're thinking that could end up into a conflict that you're avoiding. Or you go in with a fight. Try to not go in with a fight. Do whatever the opposite of the default is. And then, also, start creating this data bucket of all the times where it didn't end up the way you thought it was going to end up. 

Alex Cullimore: We are built on a lot of our past experiences. The thing is the same way you can weight some experiences over others, we tend to, by default, weight negative experiences more. You could have had four good outcome conflict conversations and one that went negatively. And you're going to probably carry that one more easily if you don't take that time to put that bank down and say, "Hey, what are the good interactions I've had? What could be done better? What can we change about this? And what might this look like in not the worst-case scenario?" Not just the one that I'm afraid of, but what's the benefit of this? 

And that's one thing we talk about a lot when we're doing leadership classes is that conflict is an opportunity for that. We have an opportunity to change something, to have a better future because we have had this conversation that is otherwise painful and a little bit scary to step into. 

Cristina Amigoni: It is. Yes. We actually just recorded. That's why conflict was on our mind. We just recorded upcoming master class on conflict. And so, we talk about that backpack of what are we bringing? What can we let go of before we walk into a potentially conflicting conversation? And what are some tools into coming into this conversation in a different way than we have in the past? 

Alex Cullimore: Our past experiences aren't just the ones that weigh heavily on us. Our past experiences are all the good ones that happened, too. And so it can be harder to remember. As we just talked about, the ping-ponging of avoiding the bad feelings. It can be hard to index on those better interactions. But that doesn't mean they're not there. They are part of the backpack. We just have to remember to take them out. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yeah, take them out. Look at them, decide. Am I bringing this or no? We're going to bring the backpack. 

Alex Cullimore: Please join if you would like to dive deeper into this and to get some strategies on how to deal with conflict. You can join our master class. It's available online. Self-paced, self-taught at turning conflict into opportunity. We'll post the link to that in the show notes. But please go step into some conflict out figure out how to avoid the most negative feeling and set up the most negative feeling so you have the most positive outcome. 

Cristina Amigoni: The good thing about the master class is that it does include one-hour coaching session with either Alex or I. So, then you get to kind of talk to us about what situations you're going through and unpack your conflict backpack even more. 

Alex Cullimore: Get right into your own personal blocks. That's where we all – we all have our own personal blocks. We can sometimes identify with how other people are interacting with conflict. But ultimately, how we interact is incredibly specific to us. And it can be very helpful to kind of have a moment to actually unpack your personal backpack, not just what could generically be in there. 

Cristina Amigoni: Well, thanks for listening. 

Alex Cullimore: Thanks for listening. 

Cristina Amigoni: Good luck with the next conflict. 

Alex Cullimore: Thanks so much for listening to Uncover the Human. We are Siamo. That is the company that sponsors and created this podcast. And if you'd like to reach out to us further, or reach out with any questions, or to be on the podcast, please reach out to podcast@wearesiamo.com. Or you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is wearesiamo. Or you can go to wearesiamo.com and check us out there. Or I suppose, Cristina, you and I have LinkedIn as well. People could find us anywhere. 

Cristina Amigoni: Yes, we do have LinkedIn. Yes. Yeah. And we'd like to thank Abbay Robinson for producing our podcast and making sure that they actually reach all of you, and Rachel Sherwood for the wonderful score. 

Alex Cullimore: Thank you, guys, so much for listening. Tune in next time. 

Cristina Amigoni: Thank you.